The Instigator
blond_guy
Pro (for)
Winning
44 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Losing
38 Points

Immigrants (in general) have always been beneficial to America

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,976 times Debate No: 2273
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (23)

 

blond_guy

Pro

I want to make it clear to anyone who has a doubt that immigrants are and always have been great to our country.

Number One: Many immigrants work jobs for less money than Americans. And at the time of Industrialization when they came by the millions, they helped this country be what it is today.

Number Two: Traditionally, this country is all about immigrants and the difference of culture. Earlier I saw a debate.org member (mikegj1077) saying she is "anti-immigration". Anti illegal immigration is arguable, but how can you be an American against immigration if you are an immigrant yourself?

So basically, America would be nothing without its immigrants. We should all just admit we're all immigrants to a certain extent and help those who came to the country most recently, so that that immigrant will help other immigrants in the future and we can keep building up this great country.
Tatarize

Con

Sure. Immigrants have not always been beneficial to America.

The inhabitants of America from 1492-1900 had a rather constant and continuous campaign of genocide and murder waged against them at the hands of immigrants.

Your claim that immigrants have always been beneficial is amusing when you look at the fact that immigrants wiped out the American population in a couple hundred years.

1) These immigrants did not work jobs for cheaper. Though they did routinely murder large tribes of American natives and take sections of their scalps in order to be paid.

2) Yes, my family did immigrate here. My father was born in Chicago, his father in Copenhagen. However, this argument doesn't *always* apply as you can tell from my exception.

Immigrants have not always been beneficial to America. In fact, history shows, they might just murder you, rape and kill your wife and children, steal your land and treat you like crap. Though occasionally they'll give you some blankets (with smallpox).

*Mikegj1077 is a guy, he has a picture of his sister for some silly reason.
Debate Round No. 1
blond_guy

Pro

"The inhabitants of America from 1492-1900 had a rather constant and continuous campaign of genocide and murder waged against them at the hands of immigrants."

-----------------You're not saying WHICH immigrants nor providing any specific facts or evidence

"Your claim that immigrants have always been beneficial is amusing when you look at the fact that immigrants wiped out the American population in a couple hundred years.

These immigrants did not work jobs for cheaper. Though they did routinely murder large tribes of American natives and take sections of their scalps in order to be paid."

----------------- I said beneficial to America as in, the United States of America. Those were times before the U.S.A. was a country

"Immigrants have not always been beneficial to America. In fact, history shows, they might just murder you, rape and kill your wife and children, steal your land and treat you like crap. Though occasionally they'll give you some blankets (with smallpox)."

------------------May I say... Innacurate and unnecessary?
Tatarize

Con

I'm sorry I didn't specifically say that the Native Americans were by and large murdered off by foreign disease and guns. The Native population of America were largely murdered by the non-native European immigrants. Therefore, you cannot say that immigrants have *always* been beneficial to America.

You said beneficial to America you didn't specify which America. Further, isn't it applicable? Aren't a number of anti-immigration people saying that Immigrants are going to take over and establish their own country. Where I might think this to be a little bit conspiratory, it has happened before.

If you would like to contest the facts of my claims in Round 1, I will happily provide them. Note, there are very few native Americans left; clearly something happened. A liberal policy on immigration might likewise be a bad idea for our America.

Certainly a number of immigrants work jobs for cheaper than Americans however, the laws of supply and demand are such that those jobs would pay more if there weren't so many people ready to work them for cheaper. Further, the idea that simply working a job for less money is a social good is suspect to say the least. The fact that a Chinese worker will do the job for a dime when the American worker might get 7 dollars an hour isn't a clear cut good in my book. Certainly it lowers the price of the goods produced, a quick look at Walmart will show this is true, however what good are cheap goods if Americans can't buy them?

Flint Michigan has one of the highest crime rates in the United States, unemployment is about 30% though it's actually higher because many have given up looking and just haven't tried in the last six months (technically definition of unemployment). It exists as it does because it lost its jobs when they were moved to Mexico to employ cheaper labor. How exactly are you reaching this conclusion that lower pay for jobs is universally beneficial? They helped this country when people had jobs to do, working manufacturing and labor jobs with Americans working those same jobs. But, the markets have changed. The US is largely changing from manufacturing to service. How do you go from, they use to be beneficial to, "they have always been beneficial"?

Your second point was that because my grandfather was an immigrant (really he was a kid at the time and my great grandfather moved the family) that I should somehow kowtow to the idea that it's a good idea in general. Let's say, I steal five dollars from a store. I like my five dollars. I'm the happiest person around having stolen this money. Should I then advocate that everybody steal five dollars from that same store? No. The store would shut down and it would end poorly. Am I happy my grandfather immigrated here? Yes. Do I thusly believe everybody should immigrate here? No.

I don't see how either of your points are valid. Further, my primary objection stands. The immigration policy of the native Americans lead them to be essentially killed off. It might be pedantic, it might be amusing (as far as the topic goes, generally genocide isn't amusing), but it's also correct. Clearly the topic fails. Further, even the heavily restricted view of your argument is unsupported.
Debate Round No. 2
blond_guy

Pro

When I said America, I meant the country. Therefore, Native Americans are not eligible for an argument.

When jobs are moved to Mexico. Well, those aren't exactly immigrants are they?

Also, lower pay for jobs might not be beneficial, but at the time of Industrialization, we wouldn't have enough people to work the blue collar jobs if we didn't have all those millions coming in from Ellis Island. Almost all of those immigrants took the blue collar jobs, boosting many Americans up to white collar workers.

Comparing immigrating with "stealing 5 dollars" from a store is inaccurate, because immigrants are not stealing, they are contributing. They pick more fruit than they can afford to eat. They sow more buttons than they're allowed to buy. They take 4 dollars an hour to build a roof. The money their bosses (Americans) get from that roof is way more than the money they paid those roofers to do it.
Tatarize

Con

If you meant the country you should have a said the country not America. You do realize that your argument basically is saying that Native Americans do not count as part of America. That sounds stupid, you know it.

I was giving an example. But, how different is having a somebody come here and take my job than having my job go there?

"Lower pay for jobs might not be beneficial" is all I need to win the argument. The caveat that "at a time of Industrialization" is rather worthless as we are currently not at a time of industrialization.

The point of an analogy is to make reference to something without actually referring to it directly. My point is not that immigration is stealing. My point is that your argument is clearly flawed as I could be happy with a stolen five dollars and *STILL* not recommend it to others. The core of your claim was that "your family is immigrants, therefore you know immigrants are good" -- that's a horrifically bad argument.

The idea that paying ten people four dollars rather than ten dollars costs the roofing company forty dollars rather than the hundred dollars increasing there profit instantly means benefit for America. How did you get there with the logic? Somehow I don't think having an immigrant send forty bucks back to Mexico for his family helps America as much as putting a hundred dollars into the local economy would.

You offered a couple arguments which were absolutely flawed. I offered a counterexample that made you look downright foolish. I admit that the affirmative might actually be right, but I don't see how you came close to proving the case.

* I don't believe you showed why getting paid less for a job is better for me or anybody.
* I contend that you're absolutely wrong that being the great grandson of an immigrant and liking living in America (where I've lived my entire life) means that I should be forced to recommend immigration. I could steal five dollars and be happy with it and not recommend it to everybody (I'm not comparing immigration to theft I'm showing that the logical structure of your argument is clearly flawed).
* And further, as one group of immigrants to America actually murdered the residents of America in a very clear and organized campaign. I think by this counterpoint your clearly wrong.

Thank you for the debate.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
wow goldspurs, ur pathetic.
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
Blond guy,

Really upsets you that you are caught "red handed" in your hypocrisy.

I don't need to report you to debate.org, just let everyone see you for the hypocrite you are is enough.

Don't see how even comes close to being a trick. People can see it for themselves.
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
goldspurs, if you don't like the way I vote, report me to debate.org

I'd rather say why I voted one way instead of being like those other 11 people who just voted without saying a word.

But instead, you'd rather be a jerk and use a cheap trick for no one to vote for me.
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
Do not vote for Blond guy, he is hypocritical with his vote. Look at this link and read his comment.

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by blond_guy 9 years ago
blond_guy
I posted my round 2 argument early by mistake, dang it

And I apologize to mikegj1077 for referring to him as a "she", I was mislead by that picture. Nice bike by the way ;)
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