The Instigator
tajshar2k
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
Defro
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Immigrants should choose the United States over Canada to live in.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
tajshar2k
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 6/28/2015 Category: Places-Travel
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,594 times Debate No: 77043
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

tajshar2k

Pro

Resolution

Immigrants should choose the United States over Canada to live in.

BOP is shared, as both me and my opponent will need to try convince that either the U.S or Canada is a better choice.


Definitions


Immigrant:

a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.


United States of America

A country that occupies most of the southern half of
North America as well as Alaska and the HawaiianIslands; population 304,059,724 (est. 2008); capital,Washington, DC


Canada

A country in northern North America, the second largest country in the world; population 33,487,200 (est. 2009);
Defro

Con





I accept this debate. I will begin my argument by clarifying the resolution.

Pro's resolution is: "Immigrants should choose the United States over Canada to live in."


The resolution does not specify any groups of immigrants, therefore the resolution claims that ALL immigrants should choose the US over Canada to live in.
Therefore, Pro's BOP is to show how EVERY immigrant should choose the United States over Canada to live in.
My BOP will be simply to disprove Pro's resolution.




C1. Family and Relations

Some immigrants may have family members or other close relations in Canada.
It would be a better choice to go to Canada if an immigrant has relations in Canada because these people may be able to help or assist the immigrant, thus making it easier for the immigrants to adapt to the new country. My grandma was an immigrant settled in Thailand because her cousin lived in Thailand. Her cousin provided her a temporary home and got her a job. He also taught her how to act and present herself in Thai society.


C2. French Speaking Immigrants

The main language used in the United States is English. Other prominent languages in the United States is Spanish and Chinese. [1] While there are French speakers in the US, French is considered a minority language and less than 1% of the US population speaks French.

Canada on the other hand has a lot of French speakers. French is the second most spoken language in Canada. 22% of Canada speaks French. [2] That's 1 in every 5 people.

Therefore, French immigrants would most likely feel more comfortable and adapt easier to Canada than the US, so they should choose Canada over the US.


C3. Life Expectancy

Out of all the countries, Canada has the 8th longest life expectancy for its citizens, ranked by the World Health Organization. The United States is ranked as 34th.[3] Here's a graph of the life expectancy of the two countries in 2012.



This was 3 years ago, and since then the life expectancy of America has dropped to 77 years and Canada has rose to 82 and is showing promises of greater increase. In 2012, the difference between their life expectancy was 3 years, and now it's 5. In the future, the difference would likely be greater.

Therefore, it is sensible to say that if an immigrant lives in Canada, he or she will likely live longer than than if she lives in the United States.


C4. Health Care

Health is most likely an important thing everyone (including immigrants) considers. The health care of Canada is undoubtedly better than health care in the United States. For one thing, the majority of citizens in Canada love and support their health care system, but in the United States, a majority oppose Obamacare for many different reasons. Even physicians and nurses in the United States prefer the Canadian health care system. Therefore, an immigrant would most likely be happier with his or her health care if he or she lives in Canada than if he or she lived in the US.


In the US, thousands die due to lack of health insurance. In Canada, nobody has ever died due to lack of health insurance. The Canadian system is also much more simple and less complex than the US's. There are no complex hospital or doctor bills, in fact usually you don't even see a bill. Coverage is not tied to a job or dependant on your income. Rich and poor people are in the same system. In the US, if you lose your job or income, you might also lose your existing health insurance or have to settle for lesser coverage. [4]

There are several other reasons why Canadian health care is better than Obamacare. Canadian health care is undoubtedly better. Therefore, immigrants will likely have their health better taken care of if they are in Canada than if they are in the US.


C5. Free Choice

What if some immigrants simply want to go to Canada rather than the United States? The resolution implies that they should choose the US over Canada even if they don't want to. Why should someone choose the US if he or she doesn't want to choose the US?





Sources:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org...

[4] http://www.counterpunch.org...
Debate Round No. 1
tajshar2k

Pro

tajshar2k forfeited this round.
Defro

Con

My contender has forfeited a round, which is a violation of conduct, especially since he was the instigator.



So far, I have established 2 legitimate reasons as to why immigrants should choose Canada over USA:

-Life Expectancy (Canada 1, USA 0)
-Health Care (Canada 2, USA 0)


More Contentions as to Why Immigrants Should Choose Canada over USA

C1. Safety and Security (Canada 3, USA 0)

The United States has a significantly higher crime rate than Canada. Studies show that overall, USA has 43% more crime than Canada. USA's murder rate is 23 times more than Canada's. USA has 147 times more rape cases than Canada. Furthermore, studies show that in the past 3 years, the crime rate of USA increased 16% more than Canada, meaning it's only going to get worse! [1]

An immigrant should choose Canada over the United States because Canada is a much safer country for them and their children to live in. And studies even show that the United States is going to get even more dangerous in the future! Any immigrant who values his or her own safety and security should choose to live in Canada over the United States.


C2. Air Quality, Pollution, and Cleanliness (Canada 4, USA 0)

Canada has the world's 3rd cleanest air quality. The United States has one of the world's most polluted cities. For example, Los Angeles is a city in the United States with one of the world's worst air pollution. There are studies that suggest that the air pollution in Los Angeles is the main reason why so many children in Los Angeles develop asthma. [2]


C3. Overall Happiness (Canada 5, USA 0)

The reason behind every decision humans make is to make them happy. Even if their decisions appear selfless, they are still for their own happiness. For example, if I decide to take a bullet for my friend, that may appear to be a selfless decision. However, I only chose to do so because I would be happier taking a bullet for my friend than letting my friend take the bullet.

Canada is ranked 6th in global happiness. Its' citizens are very happy, much happier than citizens of the United States, which ranks 17th. [3]

Therefore, immigrants should choose Canada over the United States because they would likely be happier there.





Sources:

[1] http://www.nationmaster.com...

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


[3] http://www.cbc.ca...







Debate Round No. 2
tajshar2k

Pro


Taxes

Americans have to pay much less sales tax than what Canadians do. Sales tax in America range from 0% (Pennsylvania) to the highest being Tennesese, with a 9.44%. Alberta has the lowest tax at 5%, while the majority of provinces all have tax rate above 10%! (1) This is frankly why so many Canadians travel across the border to shop, because they pay less taxes. Yes, immigrants can choose to live in Alberta, but the problem is the # of choices. In America, you simply have more states that offer you a variety of things. Its 50 states to choose vs 10 provinces and 3 territories.(2)




Lets talk about income taxes, for some one who is single and has the wage of the average Canadian, he has to pay 31.6% income tax, and 21.5% if he is married and has 2 children. Americans on the other hand, pay far less. 29.7% for Single people, and 11.9% for being married and having 2 children. (3) Keep in mind, some states do not even have income tax, which are states like Texas and Florida.



Average Salary


Americans on average make more money than their Canadian counterparts. According to OECD, Americans make an average of $56,067 dollars, while Canadians make 45,896 dollars. There is approximately a 11K difference between the salaries.(4) Immigrants who want to persue a sucessful career, should choose the U.S. Most jobs offer a higher salary in the U.S than Canada.


Gas prices


Note: 4 liters is about 1 gallon

In the developed Western world, America has the cheapest price for oil. I'm going to use liters for argument purposes, per liter, Americans pay just 77 cents per liter. Canadians on the other hand pay $1.19 per liter. For argument sake, lets say I needed 48 litres for my car. In the U.S, I would pay 0.77*48= 36.96 dollars. If I were Canadian, I would pay 1.17*20=56.16 dollars. You can see, as you add the # of litres, the cost difference increases. (6)



Better Universites


America has better Universities than what Canada offers. If I compare the top 10 universites in the world, 7 of them are American, with #1 and #2 also being American. The University of Toronto ranks at #20, making the highest ranked Canadian University. (7) If immigrants want to provide their children with the better higher education, U.S is a better choice.


Cost of Living

Your everyday nessacary more expensive in Canada than they are in the U.S. Let me create a comparison of some things most people would want to buy. (8)

U.S



Canada



You can see that your everyday expenses will be much cheaper in the U.S. All the items I listed were more expensive in the U.S than they were in Canada. On top of that, the average American still makes more money than the average Canadian, so in the end, it would be better for the immigrant, because they will have more money left over.


Unemployment Rate


America has a much lower unemployment than Canada. The American unemployment rate is at a 5.3%, while Canada's rate is at a 6.8%. More Canadians by a percentage still cannot find a job. , Canada has a higher unemployment rate for youths. 13.2% of Canadians are unemployed compared to just 12.3% of American Youths. (9)


Freedom of Speech



America is a country that was founded on freedom and liberty, and one aspect of that includes Freedom of Speech. According to the First Ammendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" Canada on the other hand, have laws that prohibit speech that could be classified as hate speech. (10) There cannot be true free speech, when you create a law to prevent somebody in expressing their opinion.




Rebutalls.

Since my opponent says in the 2nd round, that he established 2 legitmate reasons, I will only look at those reasons from the first round.



Life Expectancy

Con establishes a link that Immigrants should simply choose Canada due to the fact that the life expectancy is slighty higher.However, it must be stated that an issue like life expectancy being common in a nation must be intrinsic to that nation before you can claim it effects how great the nation is. Most of the issue people have with life expectancy involve many medical issues, which are based on the person, not the nation. Life expectancy in the US isn't intrinsic to the US. You living in the U.S, doesn not mean you will live less, as it is a personal issue. So to conclude, just because the life expectancy is lower in America does not make you more prone to these issues. All nessities required to live longer are provided in the U.S, and immigrants can choose to make descison that will impact their lifestyle.


Healthcare

Con commits a fallacy over here. He bascially is asserting that since the majority of Canadians love their healthcare, it automatically would mean that Canadian healthcare is superior. Canada for the most part is very Liberal, so most Canadians would be inclined to support their Single Payer Healthcare. Conservatives on the other hand, might disagree. Con's only real argument is that many Americans aren't covered with insurance, which leads to more deaths. Con fails to mention some key information. Both Canada and the U.S are ranked 2nd worst and worst (in that order) in the Industrialized world (11). Most of Canada's critisism comes from the long waiting times, and people have actually died from this. This is quite unacceptable, because Canadians generally pay very high taxes, and in return do not receive the same benefits as some one in France. So, both systems have the Pro's and Con's. Lack of insurance vs long waiting times. With insurance, if you have the money, you will always be able to attain it, but with long waiting times, its something every Canadian has to deal with. (12)



Safety and Security


Overall, Canada is safer to live than the U.S, but lets be practical. Homicide rates vary greatly among the 50 states, compared to the Canadian provinces. If an Immigrant were to move to New Hampshire, he would be very safe compared to somebody moving to Washington D.C. New Hampshire infact, has a lower homicide rate than Ontario. So really, it depends on where in the U.S you live. Some areas are very violent, and some areas are very safe. Immigrants have the choice to where in the U.S they would want to move. (13)


Air Quality, Pollution, Cleanliness


No where in Con's sources does it say that Canada has the 3rd cleanest air in the world. Also, it doesn't say that Los Angeles is one of the world's most polluted cities, No American city is even on the list! (14)


Overall Happiness


This is similar to the life expectancy argument presented by Con. Happiness in the US isn't intrinsic to the US. You living in the U.S, doesn not mean you will be less happy, as it is a personal issue.



Sources

http://pasted.co...

Defro

Con

*Apologies for the late reply. I got into a car accident and am in the hospital right now. I don't have much time so I will not address my contender's new arguments, because they won't matter.


Counter Rebuttal:



"He bascially is asserting that since the majority of Canadians love their healthcare, it automatically would mean that Canadian healthcare is superior."

-It does make Canadian healthcare superior. One's decisions are based on what would make one happiest. A significant more percentage of people living in Canada are happy with their health care, and a significant more percentage of people in the US despise their health care. Therefore, immigrants would likely be happier with the healthcare of Canada.

"Con fails to mention some key information."

-Canada also provides universal healthcare, something USA doesn't provide.


"Con's only real argument is that many Americans aren't covered with insurance, which leads to more deaths."

-Pro concedes that because Americans aren't covered with insurance, more people die.


"Overall, Canada is safer to live than the U.S."


-Pro concedes that Canada is overall safer than USA.


"Immigrants have the choice to where in the U.S they would want to move."

-Most immigrants don't have a choice as to where they can move. Generally in the US, there is a correlation between wealth and safety. The richer you are, the safer the neighborhood you live in. Most immigrants move to the US because wealth is not something they have an abundance of. My father was an immigrant to the US, and because of his poverty, he had no choice but to live in a ghetto district populated mostly by Mexicans, where the crime rate was high. He even got jumped once and another time someone broke into his house.

-Furthermore, as I mentioned in the previous round, studies show that the crime in USA is going to get worse. Pro is basing this rebuttal under the assertion that crime in the US will stay the same in the future, so he listed safe places to live. But those places may not be safe in the future.


"No where in Con's sources does it say that Canada has the 3rd cleanest air in the world."

-Sorry, I forgot to post the source. Here it is:
http://www.cbc.ca...


"Also, it doesn't say that Los Angeles is one of the world's most polluted cities"

-Apologies, my knowledge is outdated. I was remembering a class I had in high school years ago and my teacher was telling me how LA had one of the worst air pollution. Years ago, Los Angeles really was one of the world's most polluted cities, but they got better. However, the air quality in Los Angeles is still pretty bad.

http://la.curbed.com...


"You living in the U.S, doesn not mean you will be less happy, as it is a personal issue."

-Statistically speaking, immigrants would likely be happier in Canada than in the US.

-If Con would like to discuss personal issues, then I can bring in my first two contentions from the very first round, which are very personal issues:

1. If an immigrant has family or friends in Canada, he or she should choose Canada over USA.

2. If an immigrant speaks only French, he or she should choose Canada over USA.


Sorry for keeping this round short.

Debate Round No. 3
tajshar2k

Pro

I'm sorry to hear about Con's accident. I wish for his quick recovery.


List of Arguments Con conceded


Average Salary

Gas Prices

Better Universites

Cost of Living

Unemployment Rate

Freedom of Speech

I'm guessing Con will refute this in the last round... This is literally 100% of my arguments.



My counter rebutalls

Healthcare

I like something better, does not actually correlate to better. Con drops all my arguments to Canada's long waiting times, which also result in deaths. he also didn't refute how Canada being very liberal in its nature would correlate to Canadians being biased towards its healthcare.


Crime

Con says Immigrants do not have a choice to where they can move, I'm having trouble believing this, because you have 50 states to choose from, compared to just 10 provinces and 3 territories. Also, Con's statement that the richer you are, will lead to a safer neighborhood. This is incorrect, because Washington D.C is ranked 4th in median income, but is the far more dangerous compared to other states. Also, Con's statement of the U.S crime rate going high is incorrect. If you actually look at the source Con provided, it literally shows the graph trend going down.



Enviornmental

Canada ranks 28th in air quality. I took these from an accurate report which is very recent.

http://epi.yale.edu...


Happiness

Con makes an Apple and Oranges comparison. Happiness is an aspect that solely depends on what an individual considers happiness. If an immmigrant is French, it would depend on whether he would actually want to interact with French people. The reason why I avoided making this kind of comparision in the first place is because the argument could go the other way. What if a Spanish guy wanted to immigrate? Obiviously, it would make sense for him to emmigrate to the U.S. These types of arguments can simply go back and forth.
Defro

Con

I convinced the nurses to let me use the computer real quick. This is going to be a very rushed argument.

Every contention made so far: health care, safety and security, gas prices, cost of living, etc. They are certainly good reasons for an immigrant to choose Canada over USA or USA over Canada, but these reasons can be overruled by which country would bring them more happiness.

Therefore, overall, immigrants should choose Canada over USA because, as explained in round 2: overall, people living in Canada are happier than people living in USA.



Rebuttal

"Happiness is an aspect that solely depends on what an individual considers happiness. If an immigrant is French, it would depend on whether he would actually want to interact with French people."

-Well then in that case, this would also apply to all the arguments you've just made. Universities in the US could be better than in Canada (I'm not saying they are, I'm just trying to prove a point), but an immigrant may for some reason still prefer Canadian Universities over Universities in the US. An immigrant may not care much for Freedom of Speech and thus that argument would also be invalid because as Pro says, it "solely depends on what an individual considers."

-However, this debate doesn't simply cover an individual immigrant, it covers immigrants in general. And in general, people living in Canada are happier than people living in USA.


"The reason why I avoided making this kind of comparison in the first place is because the argument could go the other way. What if a Spanish guy wanted to immigrate?"

-It certainly can go the other way.

-I'm not saying that all immigrants would be happier living in Canada than in the US, I'm saying that statistically speaking, they are likely to be happier living in Canada than in the US, and Pro has essentially already conceded to this.


Happiness > Everything Else

-Every decision we make is based on what would make us happier.
-Canada is ranked 6th in global happiness. USA is ranked 17th. [1]
-Therefore, an immigrant is more likely to be happier in Canada than the US.
-Since it is more probable for an immigrant to be happier in Canada than the US, immigrants should choose Canada over USA to live in.



Sources:

[1] http://www.cbc.ca...






I thank the instigator for a good debate.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by tajshar2k 1 year ago
tajshar2k
Damn it! I forfeited the round. Oh well, hopefully my arguments stand.
Posted by tajshar2k 1 year ago
tajshar2k
My opponent left out where I said. "both me and my opponent will need to try convince that either the U.S or Canada is a better choice." So no, The BOP isn't just on me, because I don't have to prove all immigrants must go to America, but rather America is a better option. I already said in my resolution that both me and my opponent need to try convince that the U.S or Canada would be a better option. If my opponent really was confused, he should have perhaps asked me prior to accepting, rather than accepting the debate, and changing the BOP without my permission.

So to conclude, the resolution shall stay the same. Not to bash my fellow debater here, but you should have read it more carefully.
Posted by Defro 1 year ago
Defro
Ok
Posted by GarlicBred24 1 year ago
GarlicBred24
Sorry If that sounded rude, but you should have read over the resolution prior to accepting.
Posted by GarlicBred24 1 year ago
GarlicBred24
looks like Con is going to lose this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Midnight1131 1 year ago
Midnight1131
tajshar2kDefro
Who won the debate:Vote Checkmark-
Reasons for voting decision: This was a very good debate. However due to Con's untimely accident, many of Pro's main arguments were dropped, including - Average Salary, Gas Prices, Better Universities, Cost of Living, Unemployment Rate, and Freedom of Speech. These are 6 arguments that were dropped, so right now it stands 6-0 Pro. However healthcare goes to Con, because everyone being covered by healthcare leads to less deaths than waiting times [Pro failed to give any real statistics regarding wait times.] So now it's 6-1. Pro also conceded that overall Canada is safer than the US, and since the debate isn't about states and provinces, and is instead comparing the two countries, this point goes to Con. 6-2. For the final round, Con did not continue with any arguments other than happiness, and since happiness is subjective, it cannot be considered as a strong argument. Not to mention even if it was, it would still be 6-3 Pro. So due to many dropped arguments by Con, this debate goes to Pro.