The Instigator
Crayzman2297
Pro (for)
Losing
39 Points
The Contender
Ragnar_Rahl
Con (against)
Winning
59 Points

Immigration Fence

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/1/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 4,720 times Debate No: 12202
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (47)
Votes (19)

 

Crayzman2297

Pro

I was looking at your profile and I noticed that you were against the idea of having an immigration fence. Why? What bad things come out of it?
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

Firstly: Neither you nor anyone else has the right to bar immigration to the United States of America (that is, essentially, to contribute to the imprisonment of Mexicans in Mexico against their will). No one has ever acquired such vast property rights. If you wish to keep an immigrant off your property, build a fence around your yard, with your money, not around things you do not own with money you do not own.

Second-- That is a huge distance to place a fence over. And the harder the fence is to get over, the more expensive the materials will be (if it isn't hard it's pointless). Considering how immigration is an economic benefit, you're essentially paying a million dollars to prevent people from offering you more dollars yet.
Debate Round No. 1
Crayzman2297

Pro

ah, but the fence prevents ILLEGAL immigrants. key word, ILLEGAL. The fence does not restrict immigrants from coming to america Legally. Even the migrant farm workers in California often have Green Cards so that they can work in america. People like that have every right to pass through the fence with no worries. However, as long as immigrants are coming into the country illegally, they are not protected by the rights offered by the US Constitution. It benefits them more than anyone. The Fence is simply to enforce a national law, and it does a decent job. Border security is necessary.
And to those who day that "America is a country built by Immigrants" please remember one thing; all of them were documented. Have you ever heard of Ellis Island? Over 90% of the Immigrants of the 1900's passed through and were documented and medically evaluated.
Which brings me to my next point;
Disease! Undocumented workers rise bringing disease to the country. It could be something as simple as an influenza outbreak in the community that they move to, or it could become a national epidemic of some unkown and new disease! An immigration fence with tighter border security can reduce these risks by reducing illegal immigration.
If Mexico is such a terrible place, then how come the people who want to move here are not willing to take a test and become citizens? (or even documented workers from abroad)?
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"ah, but the fence prevents ILLEGAL immigrants. key word, ILLEGAL."
Again. No one has the right to make that law.

"The fence does not restrict immigrants from coming to america Legally. "
If all immigration were legalized, the fence would restrict nothing whatsoever.

"It benefits them more than anyone. The Fence is simply to enforce a national law, and it does a decent job."
If by "decent job" you mean "Very little effect for massive amounts of money."

"However, as long as immigrants are coming into the country illegally, they are not protected by the rights offered by the US Constitution."
I am not speaking of legal privileges, I am speaking of the human right to liberty.

"
And to those who day that "America is a country built by Immigrants" please remember one thing; all of them were documented. "
This is unsourced.

"Have you ever heard of Ellis Island? Over 90% of the Immigrants of the 1900's passed through "
First-- if you don't document people you don't know whether it's only 10 percent that didnt, obviously, and again this meaningless assertion is unsourced. Second, 90 percent is not "all."

"
Disease! Undocumented workers rise bringing disease to the country. "
Documents are not a vaccine, and US citizens travelling and bringing diseases by airline after a vacation. is far more likely than some impovershed Mexican managing to make a harsh journey that's generally on foot when ill. In case you haven't noticed, dangerous diseases are hard to travel with when one lacks airplanes and the like. Do you propose setting up checkpoints outside every farm to make sure no diseases escape? No? Then you're making a distinction that makes no sense.

"An immigration fence with tighter border security can reduce these risks"
No. It can't. Certainly not in a cost effective manner. Again, far more likely that an American will come home with an exotic disease (For one thing, they travel farther!)

"If Mexico is such a terrible place, then how come the people who want to move here are not willing to take a test and become citizens?"
I don't believe there are many who wouldn't prepare for and take such a test. Unfortunately, most people who want to move here aren't permitted to! It's called an immigration quota, an artifact of a time when the US's leaders wanted to ensure that the number of people with dark skin didn't go up too fast. That artifact, not some unscientific theory of disease or some economic fallacy, is the prima mover behind the immigration laws you propose to step up enforcment of (in a costly and ineffective manner).
Debate Round No. 2
Crayzman2297

Pro

Because i'm not going to waste my limited characters on repeating my own words and then some (as you did) I will just number them.

1. Who are you to say that no one has the right to make that law? Technically, so long as it does not violate the Constitution (and even if it does) Congress can make any laws it wants to!

2. All immigration IS legal! One just needs to apply and fill out the correct paperwork and pass a citizenship test. They don't even need to try and scale the fence, for they can simply show their papers at a checkpoint and be welcomed in with open arms.

3. Walls, in relation to, oh, i don't know, an AC-130? You could probably pay for the wall with about 10 of those airplanes, and I don't see you complaining about them. A wall would not increase taxes anymore than anything else we buy now that no one complains about.

4. Liberty IS a right in the constitution! The constitution is what makes america the "Sweet Land of Liberty"! What liberty do they have at all if they do not have any of the rights of the constitution? They cannot speak freely, they cannot worship freely, they cannot publicly assemble freely... What more freedom does america offer, if everywhere they go they are hunted by the police? Why do they leave mexico to come to a land where they will not have rights?

5. Who said anything about a source? Is it not true? Are you telling me that you are full-blooded american indian, an not a mix of either British, Italian, Irish, Polish, German, African, or Asian? Nearly everyone in this country has ancestors who came to america in search of a better life. They didn't have to worry about walls because they came LEGALLY.

6. You are proving my point. You are right, I don't know if the 10% is only 10% or even more than that. Illegal immigrants create problems with government census and taxes. How do you tax an illegal immigrant, if you don't know they are there?
No taxation without representation?
No representation without taxation! (bringing me back to point 1)

7. When people become citizens, they are given a medical evaluation. If they are in poor health, they are treated. If they are in permanently poor health, and it is contagious, they are possibly denied. Undocumented illegal immigrants are not evaluated. They may be carrying a disease into the country which doctors may have forbade him for otherwise. It works great for him, but bad for anyone he infects. As to your arguement about it being hard to travel with disease, it is irrelevant. Some diseases, (like the Epstein-Barr Virus) can lie totally dormant within the body for months, and still be passed on to others. While dormant, the person suffers no symptoms, but it can still show positive on a test.

8. Why are you so hung up on cost? Can you tell me how much a fence WOULD cost? Do you have such a figure up your sleeve? And to the question of americans spreading diseases, it is no secret that our hospitals are better than those in mexico. So is our healthcare. Americans are often healthier and certainly much better immunized, so I think it is much more likely for an immigrant to carry these diseases.

9. And how is the immigration quota a bad thing? That is something that you have failed to explain. Now we get to matters of sheer opinion, for I think that it's good and you clearly are opposed to it. Please present me with statistical research that states what higher immigration rates would do to improve this country, other than drain tax dollars on a broken welfare system.
Ragnar_Rahl

Con

"
1. Who are you to say that no one has the right to make that law?"
Implied ad hominem. It doesn't matter who I am, only the substance of my statements.

"Technically, so long as it does not violate the Constitution (and even if it does) Congress can make any laws it wants to!
"
Might does not make right.

"
2. All immigration IS legal! One just needs to apply and fill out the correct paperwork and pass a citizenship test."
No. That does not guaranteee legality. And even if it did, the government doesn't have the right to demand such a test.

"
3. Walls, in relation to, oh, i don't know, an AC-130? You could probably pay for the wall with about 10 of those airplanes,"
Proof? The southern border is 2000 miles. The northern one is even longer :).

"and I don't see you complaining about them"
Those are used to kill people who have violated the rights of others. Immigrants have done nothing of the sort.

"A wall would not increase taxes anymore than anything else we buy now that no one complains about."
I complain about almost everything the government does if you haven't noticed.

"
4. Liberty IS a right in the constitution! "
Irrelevant, and if true it renders the immigration fence unconstitutional.

"What liberty do they have at all if they do not have any of the rights of the constitution?"
The RIGHT to a constitution with liberty, real liberty, not the semblance we have now.

"They cannot speak freely,"
Perhaps, yet nonetheless they have the right to. And so forth.

"What more freedom does america offer, if everywhere they go they are hunted by the police? Why do they leave mexico to come to a land where they will not have rights?"
There is no land without rights, only a land with people who violate them-- like you for example.

"5. Who said anything about a source? Is it not true? Are you telling me that you are full-blooded american indian, an not a mix of either British, Italian, Irish, Polish, German, African, or Asian? "
The asking for a source was about "they were all documented," not "they were all immigrants," the latter helps my position silly.

"They didn't have to worry about walls because they came LEGALLY."
Not demonstrated. I have no idea whether my ancestors came legally or illegally, nor do I care.

"How do you tax an illegal immigrant, if you don't know they are there?"
You have no right to tax people. Taxes are theft and should be abolished.

"
No taxation without representation?
No representation without taxation!"
There is no such thing as "representation" by our current government-- there never has been unanimity,and it is all but certain that there never will be, therefore, someone's views aren't being represented. Incidentally, illegal immigrants cannot under current law vote whether there is a border fence or not silly.

"
7. When people become citizens, they are given a medical evaluation."
COMPLETELY MISSED MY POINT ABOUT NATURAL BORN CITIZENS BEING MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE DISEASE.

"Can you tell me how much a fence WOULD cost? "
You are the on in favor of putting up 2000 miles of metal, that supposedly can't be climbed over or broken through easily. You find the design, you do the math, it's your burden of proof.

"And to the question of americans spreading diseases, it is no secret that our hospitals are better than those in mexico"
I was talking about American TRAVELERS. I said as much. Also, if the disease is something we can treat easily, then it's NOT A PROBLEM obviously.

"
9. And how is the immigration quota a bad thing?"
It keeps people out without the right to do so? It's racist? What more do you need? What do you have in favor of it or to rebut these problems?

"Please present me with statistical research that states what higher immigration rates would do to improve this country."
That's like asking me before one game of Shaq's how many points he will score. There's a high standard deviation, statistics are empirical. What I can provide you is economic theory-- people will not come and stay unless they are going to be hired. No one will hire someone if it doesn't improve them as an individual-- and America or any other country is nothing but the sum of individuals.

"other than drain tax dollars on a broken welfare system."
Immigrants are not responsible for the welfare system. Statists (a different sort of statist than that which builds border fences of course) are. Abolish welfare, not immigration.
Debate Round No. 3
47 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
it would have been, but as you can see the software cannot support Arabic text :P
Posted by Crayzman2297 7 years ago
Crayzman2297
It is not true arabic unless it is written in arabic
Posted by Crayzman2297 7 years ago
Crayzman2297
Je crains que vous ne sont pas corrects:

وهذه هي الطريقة الحقيقية هو مكتوب باللغة العربية
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Il est l'arabe, vous barbares
Posted by Crayzman2297 7 years ago
Crayzman2297
Je ne comprends pas les Maoris
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Shaitan hua mithla shaitan yafal.
Posted by Crayzman2297 7 years ago
Crayzman2297
¿qué diablos?
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Hello stranger. Welcome to Debate.org, where nothing ever goes as intended. Your first hijacked thread will occur in 4-6 weeks.
Posted by Crayzman2297 7 years ago
Crayzman2297
what i mean is, you should take these people you are arguing with and just challenge them to debates about what you are arguing about, rather than using the comments section which is not meant for this.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Formalize them to what standard? LD? Pofo? Policy?

And why?
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