The Instigator
MassiveDump
Pro (for)
Tied
4 Points
The Contender
TN05
Con (against)
Tied
4 Points

In A Fight Between the Star Fox Team and Jigglypuff, the Star Fox Team Would Most Likely Win

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/1/2014 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,815 times Debate No: 43228
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (51)
Votes (4)

 

MassiveDump

Pro

As Pro, I am affirming the resolution that in a fight between the Star Fox Team and Jigglypuff, the Star Fox Team would most likely win.

Definitions:

Fight -



Star Fox Team -



Jigglypuff -



Win -



Structure:

Round 1: Pro Explains, Con accepts.
Round 2: New Arguments, NO REBUTTALS.
Round 3: New Arguments and rebuttals.
Round 4: Rebuttals, NO NEW ARGUMENTS OR EVIDENCE.

Cross-Examination:

Questions can be asked to the opponent at any time in the comments. The opponent must answer any and all questions asked during the debate. VOTERS MAY CONSIDER CROSS-EXAMINATION WHEN VOTING.

This was really elaborate so if you accept, please don't forfeit. Good luck.
TN05

Con

I accept this challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
MassiveDump

Pro

Clarification

Although I told my opponent that he could use five Jigglypuffs in this hypothetical fight, that was without calculating the Star Fox Team's R.O.B. That said, my opponent is entitled to six hypothetical Jigglypuffs, not five.

The Case in Favor of the Star Fox Team



I affirm the resolution that in a fight between the Star Fox team and five Jigglypuffs, the Star Fox team would most likely win on the grounds of these four contentions.

1. Firepower

The Star Fox team has access to a revolutionary variety of weaponry applicable for any situation. These include weapons like the Demon Launcher[1], a weapon that locks instantly onto a target and kills it in one hit. Since this weapon contains three missiles, if every member of the Star Fox team (five, if you exclude the non-field combatant R.O.B.) had a Demon Launcher, all six Jigglypuffs would be killed instantly unless they found a really good hiding spot.

The only problem with a hiding spot is that every Star Fox character has a Radar. In every single level of every single Star Fox game (exculding the 1993 SNES game, where no radar was needed) has a radar handy. Seeing no cannon proof that Jigglypuffs come with cloaking devices, there's really no safe place for a Jigglypuff to hide.

Let's put aside for a moment that the Star Fox team comes equipped with Demon Launchers and Radar. As a matter of fact, let's ignore weapons they carry on foot in general for a moment. One still has to consider the amazing military vehicles that the Star Fox team uses in every mission such as the Landmaster and the Arwing, which is armed with infinite lasers and three smart bombs[2]. These machines have more capability than anything a Jigglypuff has been known to possess, or even be capable of operating.

In short, the Star Fox team is equipped. Extremely equipped. The weapons this team arms itself with is beyond anything a Jigglypuff could survive longer than an hour or two. That's not all.

2. Statistically Higher Ranking

One contention I feel obligated to point out is that this hypothetical fight is not entirely hypothetical. There is a video game where we know for a fact that at least some of the members of Star Fox have had a chance to duke it out with Jigglypuff. The most recent tier list (as of April 2013) is shown here:



The ace pilot "Falco" checks in at the A- (lower-top) tier as number seven, the leader of the team "Fox" ranks in the C (middle) tier as number fiteeen, and Jigglypuff scrapes together the ability to rank as number thirty-six in the F (bottom) tier.

Considering that at least one member fares approximately five times (5x) better than Jigglypuff, and another fares over two times (2x) better than Jigglypuff, two members of the Star Fox team alone are capable of beating up at least seven Jigglypuffs, and that's without Demon Launchers.

If you weigh in my previous evidence involving the Demon Launchers, the entire Star Fox team, without any fighting skills, can already defeat fifteen. However, if you choose to ignore weaponry, two alone can still wipe out seven.

Seven is more than six[3].

3. Diversity

The first subpoint of this contention is obvious. Each member of the Star Fox team possesses a unique ability that, when put together as a team, leaves no weak point in structure[4(link does not include Krystal, who appears at a later point in the storyline)]. Fox provides tactical leadership, Falco brings exceptional combat skills to the table, Slippy builds the weapons and technology (this is especially important if my opponent argues that no weapons should be allowed), Peppy displays experience and instruction, Krystal has telepathic abilities that allow the team to know exactly what their allies and foes are thinking, and R.O.B. analyzes the situation and warns of oncoming danger.

Even if Jigglypuffs used cinematic liscence Pokemon miracles to work together and solve the problem, they wouldn't have the ability to collaborate in the same way the Star Fox team does. After all, that's what makes Star Fox so unique. The game has so many characters, but all of them are different in multiple aspects, and this boosts combined power as a team.

4. Strategic Ability

I should also mention another quick contention to add to this argument. Throughout the Star Fox game series, the team has shown a very important aspect to a good fight that no Jigglypuff has ever set foot upon.

Strategy.

There's no Jigglypuff who has ever shown the ability to harness and hone in on its skills. Without a trainer to give orders to a Jigglypuff, the pokemon levels up much more slowly, thinks much more rashly, and overall fights much more poorly. The element of strategy is a huge advantage to the Star Fox team that easily puts them ahead of six Jigglypuffs.

For all these contentions and more, a vote in favor of Pro is obvious.

Sources

[1] http://starfox.wikia.com...
[2] http://starfox.wikia.com...;
[3] http://affordablehousinginstitute.org...;
[4] http://starfox643d.nintendo.com...;
TN05

Con

Jigglypuffs are possibly among the least feared things ever. Just look at one:



It's just a pink-colored, ball-shaped lightweight that falls asleep for no reason, right? Wrong. Jigglypuffs are in fact dangerous Pokemon and have a number of abilities that give them a leg up - not just in Pokemon fights or survival, but in a fight with anyone.

To start, let's look at the facts: Jigglypuffs are round, pink balls with rubbery skin similar to that of a balloon. They are most often found in plains and meadows,[1] but they can also be found elsewhere, such as with a single Jigglypuff-obsessed Pokemon trainer who has built up an army of six level 99 Jigglypuffs. However, it is far more likely to find six Jigglypuffs in a field than it would be to find them in, say, space or with a single trainer, so the fight would most likely occur there. These fields and meadows serve as a major defense mechanism for the Jigglypuff, as there is a lot of tall grass in these fields that Pokemon can hide behind or pop out from. In fact, many other types of Pokemon hide in this grass, meaning you have to be extra sure you are targeting one of the six Jigglypuffs.

Second, Jigglypuffs have two well-known abilities - the ability to fly, which they can accomplish by drawing air in to their bodies, and the ability to put others to sleep.[1] These abilities are well-known but have a couple extra uses. In addition to inflating, Jigglypuffs can deflate - that is, they can let air out of their body and go flat. This would be very useful for hiding, especially if one were to infiltrate a Star Fox tank. Secondly, Jigglypuffs actually begin hypnosis before they've even sung their song - their eyes draw opponents in before they are even put to sleep.[1] This is punctuated by the fact that it is impossible to not fall asleep when they sing their so, because literally nothing can resist the song of Jigglypuff, let alone the song of six Jigglypuffs. If they sing their song, you will fall asleep - there is no getting beyond this.[2] The sleep ability alone would give six Jigglypuffs an advantage over the Star Fox team, but they also have the potential to learn many more moves, including:[3]

*Defense Curl - Curls up to conceal weak spots and boost defense
*Disable - Disables one of the foe's moves
*Body slam - A full body slam that may cause paralysis
*Mimic - Copies a move used by the foe during battle
*Hyper voice - A loud attack that uses sound waves to injure.

Regardless of whether you are facing six wild Jigglypuffs or six Jigglypuffs controlled by a Pokemon trainer, it is ensured that a good mix of these moves would be held by the team as a whole. Amazingly Jigglypuffs have even more abilities, such as their Final Smash 'Puff Up', which causes them to inflate and push everything away. Theoretically, the Puff Up attack could also be used to destroy Star Fox ships, provided the Jigglypuff would enter the ship and then use it. Because nothing can stop the expansion, the expansion would clearly win and cause the ship to break. This is just one possible use, however, and there are many other ways it could work.[4] Additionally, Jigglypuffs can use Rest, an attack that can KO enemies by simply falling asleep and also makes the Jigglypuff temporarily invincible for a brief period.[5] Simply put, with all this power Jigglypuffs have an undeniable edge over the Star Fox team.

As I have shown, the power of one Jigglypuff alone is clearly quite immense - but the power of six Jigglypuffs? That is an insurmountable obstacle for anyone and anything. The Star Fox team would be at a clear disadvantage in a battle with six Jigglypuffs, and the Jigglypuffs would most likely win. For this reason, a vote for Con is warranted and logical.

References:
1. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
2. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
3. http://www.serebii.net...
4. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
5. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
Debate Round No. 2
MassiveDump

Pro

Values of My Argument's Over My Opponent's

In this contention, I will also re-enforce my previous arguments, as my opponent has not had the chance to refute them yet.

There are six basic arguments being presented in this debate. Four are mine; two are my opponent's. For efficiency's sake, here is how the contentions should be valued when voting on this debate:

1. Statistically Higher Ranking

This should be valued highest because it's based on experimental data, rather than hypothetical possibilities. The tier list is the only source presented which directly shows what would happen in a fight between the Star Fox Team and Jigglypuffs(See Round 2, Contention 2).

2. Strategic Ability

This should be highly valued as well because it explicitly displays something the Star Fox team possesses which Jigglypuffs do not. Without strategy and cooperation, the Star Fox team is ahead of the Jigglypuffs in the same way an advanced human army is ahead of a band of gorillas.

3. Firepower

This is another valuable contention on the sole premise that it essentially leaves the Jigglypuffs dead on arrival. Aside from the game-ending Demon Launcher(See Round 2, Contention 1) that would be given to the Star Fox team if they enter a losing position, they also possess weapons that are immediately available to them.

These weapons include, but are not limited to, the Homing Launcher, which deals powerful and accurate damage from very far distances,

[1](Also seen held by Falco in Round 2)

The Machine Gun, which delivers rapid damage in succession,

[2]

And the Gatling Gun, a more powerful version of the Machine Gun which delivers even greater amounts of damage.

[3] (Also seen being held by Krystal in Round 2)

I will explain why these weapons are more powerful than the average wild Jiggypuff when I go on to refute that contention.

4. Diversity

This should be valued over the argument of location because it is a more powerful benefit. Even if you choose to believe that the meadow is an ideal location for a Jigglypuff victory (which I will refute later in this round), It's still only one strength. When one member of the Star Fox team lacks a strength, another makes up for it. If one Jigglypuff has a weakness, they all have that weakness. When that weakness is discovered, any hopes for a Jigglypuff victory are shattered.

5. Location

This should be valued as fifth for reasons I mentioned in the statement above. I will refute this after listing the value of all six arguments.

6. Move Power

This contention basically correlates with firepower, and therefore should have no extra value. I will argue firepower and move power together.

Now, I will address my opponent's statements.

Location

As my opponent stated, a fight with a Jigglypuff will most likely take place in the wild in a meadow. He claims that this meadow serves for a beneficial location for Jigglypuffs, as it gives them an elusive place to hide from the Star Fox team. This claim is half-true at best. Star Fox can easily overcome this obstacle by using two items: The Arwing and their Radar.

For more information on the Radar, I urge you to look back at my Firepower argument from Round 2.

The Arwing is the most popularly known machine used by the Star Fox team. It's an airplane-spaceship hybrid that is used for air combat, but it has more uses. In-game, the Arwing is also frequently used for shooting down land targets[4].



With a combination of the Star Fox team having the air vs. land advantage and a Radar to track down the Jigglypuffs, the Jigglypuffs not only have no way to hide, but if the Star Fox team were to remain in the air, they would also have no way to attack.

Speaking of attack, let's talk about-

Firepower/Move Power

There are many claims my opponent makes regarding the fighting skills of a Jigglypuff. One by one, cross examination proved many of them to be farfetched and unwarranted.

My opponent described many moves that Jigglypuffs can make, but ignored the fact that many of these moves are not learnable by the average Jigglypuff. These are the moves my opponent claimed a Jigglypuff could use:

*Sing
*Puff-Up
*Flatten
*Rest
*Defense Curl
*Disable
*Body Slam
*Mimic
*Hyper Voice

Con however, admitted in Cross-Ex that the average Jigglypuff would be at a level around 11-15. That known, let's cross off the moves these Jigglypuffs have no way of knowing how to use:

*Sing
*Puff-Up
*Flatten
*Rest (Requires level 29)
*Defense Curl
*Disable
*Body Slam (Requires level 33)
*Mimic (Requires level 45)
*Hyper Voice (Requires level 48)[5]

Now, let's eliminate every move that can't do damage to the other team:

*Sing
*Puff-Up
*Flatten
*Rest
*Defense Curl
*Disable
*Body Slam
*Mimic
*Hyper Voice[5]

(It should also be noted that Con left a solid implication in Cross-Ex that a Jigglypuff infiltrating a Star Fox vehicle being stored in a mothership hovering above the atmosphere is illogical, so flatten would never need to be used for hiding inside one.)

That leaves us with Sing, Puff-Up, and Disable.

Sing has 55% accuracy in a close-range Pokemon battle[5]. If the Star Fox team fights in their Arwings, they will be substantially further away, sharply lowering that move's accuracy. Not only that, but if worse comes to worse, Sing could never be used to defeat every member, because R.O.B. is a robot, making him immune to drowziness.

Puff-Up would require the use of a Smash Ball, since it's not a sanctioned Pokemon move. Considering the immense mobility advantage, Star Fox would acquire all Smash Balls, anyway.

Finally, all Disable does is temporarily disable one move at a time, for no more than 8(and possibly down to 1) turns[5]. If you were wondering, here's a complete list of weapopns the Star Fox team uses, not being Pokemon, and therefore not limited to four:

*Blaster
*Charge
*Cluster Bomb
*Demon Launcher
*Demon Sniper Rifle
*Fireburst Pod
*Gatling Gun
*Grenade
*Homing Launcher
*Krystal's Staff
*Laser
*Machine Gun
*Missle Launcher
*Plasma Cannon
*Predator Rocket
*Smart Bomb
*Sniper Rifle[6]

Seventeen land weapons in all. As opposed to what, again?

*Sing
*Puff-Up
*Flatten
*Rest
*Defense Curl
*Disable
*Body Slam
*Mimic
*Hyper Voice

Three sub-useful moves.


It's okay, Jigglypuff. You can't win 'em all.

Type Advantage

One more argument I would like to make is the difference between the types of these combatants. Obviously, the Star Fox team is not a Pokemon, but what if they were? Fox, Slippy, and Peppy might be normal, Krystal might be psychic, and Falco might be fliying, but what matters the most is the type of their weaponry, which out of the 18 types, comes closest to steel.

For that matter, even R.O.B. himself would obviously be a steel type. Jigglypuff, on the other hand, is normal/fairy. When normal/fairy and steel clash, steel delivers twice the damage, while normal/fairy only delivers half[7].

This makes it even easier for Star Fox to win this hypothetical fight.

For all these reasons listed above, and those to be explained and defended in the next round, the resolution firmly stands.

Sources

[1] http://starfox.wikia.com...;
[2] http://starfox.wikia.com...;
[3] http://starfox.wikia.com...;
[4] http://starfox643d.nintendo.com...;
[5] http://pokemondb.net...;
[6] http://starfox.wikia.com...;
[7] http://pokemondb.net...;
TN05

Con

As this is the rebuttal round, I will be devoting the entirety of my argument to rebuttal. To begin, I will examine the statements he made in the second round of the debate:

My opponent notes that the Star Fox team has superior weaponry to a team of six Jigglypuffs. I do not contest this - Jigglypuffs have no need to carry weapons around so naturally Star Fox team will have an advantage in this category. In particular, he notes a few weapons: the Demon Launcher, which has three auto-kill missiles and an auto-lock on feature, radar, which can detect hidden things, and the Star Fox military vehicles. While these can be useful weapons, can these be useful against a group of six Jigglypuffs in a field? I doubt it.

To start with, the Demon Launcher itself is problematic. It is given to the losing side in a Star Fox Assault Versus round, which my opponent and I both agree would be the most likely scenario for a fight. The issue here is he states that every Star Fox team member would be given one if they are put in a losing position, even though the Star Fox Assault multiplayer has a limit of four players, each on their own team, meaning that there can only be one Demon Launcher awarded per side.[YouTube video] Even with that, if Star Fox team has an inherent edge like my opponent suggests, they will never receive the weapon.

Even further, my opponent asserts in the cross-ex that the Demon Launcher is Star Fox team's weapon, so it cannot possibly be awarded to anyone other than the Star Fox team in the same way Pokemon moves cannot be learned by Star Fox team. However, Wolf O'Donnell, who is most certainly not a member of Star Fox team, can be awarded the weapon, so in actuality it can be awarded to anyone. I will not contest it cannot be awarded to Jigglypuff, however, because Jigglypuff does not need it. Why? Let's look at the facts:

As I have established, Star Fox team can clearly only be awarded one Demon Launcher, not six. That would still be sufficient to kill three Jigglypuffs if effectively used - which sounds great, but the problem is, a Demon Launcher cannot be used effectively in a field. Why is that? The answer is tall grass. Meadows and fields in Pokemon are filled with tall grass, which is basically impossible to see through. Since the Demon Launcher needs to see its target for it to be able to lock on, as long as Jigglypuffs stay in the grass the weapon is effectively useless. This same reasoning applies to radar, which is only able to detect relative size and shape according my my opponent's cross-ex answers. The problem with this is that Jigglypuffs are not the only ball-shaped Pokemon, so radar would not be incredibly useful. And as for ships, the Star Fox team would not automatically be afforded them under Star Fox Assault Versus rules and there would only be a few of them. There are certainly not enough for all six team members to claim one.[Youtube video] Thus, the ships would not serve an immediate benefit and could even be claimed by a Jigglypuff or destroyed outright if they got there fast enough.

My opponent also notes Jigglypuff is ranked far lower on the SSBB tier ranking than Fox and Falco. This is true,[1] but is actually quite deceptive. According to the most recent character matchups list, Jigglypuff has a 55-45 advantage over Falco (meaning a single Jigglypuff would beat Falco roughly 55 out of 100 times) and the matchup with Fox is unknown (meaning there is no confirmed edge either way). In other words, there is no advantage at all for Star Fox team here; in fact, it could actually be an edge for Jigglypuff![2]

My opponent next mentions diversity as an edge, which in a way it can be. However, a group of six Jigglypuffs all have the same ability to put you to sleep. Simply put, diversity is utterly useless when you are incapacitated. I will cede that strategy is a slight edge to Star Fox team, but you don't really need to strategize if you are a Jigglypuff - all you need to do is put your opponent to sleep and then pound the snot out of them.

Now, onto my opponent's round 3 arguments:

My opponent notes Star Fox team has Arwings, which can attack land targets. I have already established, however, that Star Fox team would not immediately have access to an Arwing, and that it is very hard to see through tall grass even with radar. There certainly would not be six Arwings, and although I suppose you could just attack all the surrounding area with your Arwing, you risk damaging you allies.

Second, my opponent correctly eliminated several moves the average Jigglypuff would not know. He then discounts the usefulness of Defense Curl, which could drastically reduce the effectiveness of enemy firepower by as much as six times. If you think that isn't a big boost, you are very wrong. I will admit I forgot to include a physical attack, 'Pound', which isn't as effective as body slam but still works. That leaves Jigglypuff with at least four moves that can be incredibly useful. Also, my opponent unwisely disregards the usefulness of 'disable' - what's more annoying than pulling out a gun and finding that it doesn't work? Because this conflict would be in tall, hard-to-see-through grass, the Jigglypuffs could sneak up on a Star Fox team member, disable half their inventory and kill him before he can find one that works. It could also be used to negate my opponent's biggest weapons - the Arwing, Landmaster, and Demon Hunter. Simply put, disable is something that Star Fox team cannot handle. He also notes that 'Sing' has only a 55% accuracy, but that is in a regulation Pokemon fight against actual Pokemon. In a fight that more closely resembles the Star Fox Assault Versus mode fight - those in the Super Smash Bros series - Sleep has 100% accuracy.[3]

My opponent's final argument relates to type advantages. However, as this is not a regulation Pokemon fight and only Pokemon have types, this argument is irrelevant.[4]

With that out of the way, I have not only established that Star Fox team does not have an advantage in a fight against six Jigglypuffs, but also that the Jigglypuff team would inherently have the edge. Therefore, a vote for Con is warranted.

References:
1. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
2. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
3. http://www.ssbwiki.com...
4. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Debate Round No. 3
MassiveDump

Pro

This being the final round, I will not provide any new arguments or evidence, but rather explain why a Pro vote is warranted on the grounds of each contention.

Values of Each Contention

Since my opponent did not address this statement, I will assume that my opponent agrees that the contentions should be valued in this order:

1. Statistically Higher Ranking
2. Strategic Ability
3. Firepower
4. Diversity
5. Location
6. Move Power
?. Type Advantage


I will therefore argue these contentions in order of importance.

1. Statistically Higher Ranking

In a fight that has already taken place between members of the Star Fox team and Jigglypuffs, the Star Fox has experimentally proven as better fighters.

In Round 2, I displayed the most recent Super Smash Bros. Brawl tier list, which showed that members of the Star Fox team consistently rank far above Jigglypuff.

My opponent tried to counter this by using the individual match-up chart. Unfortunately, he misread the chart. This match-up list actually leans in favor of the Star Fox team as well. A picture of the match-up is shown below:



The numbers on the chart show the advantage the character on the side has against the character on top[1]. As you can see by the chart, both Fox and Falco have a 60 percent advantage over Jigglypuff. Even if you go by my opponent's chart instead of the tier list, the Star Fox team is still proven more likely to win a fight.

2. Strategic Ability

In Round 2, I emphasized the fact that the Star Fox team has a severe advantage over the Jigglypuffs because the team has the ability to strategize. Openly, my opponent ceded that this was true.

The only way he argued this point was with a red herring: "It doesn't matter that Jigglypuffs can't strategize, because they can put everyone to sleep." Here's where that logic is flawed. Given the ability to strategize, as well as the technology they possess, they have the ability to plan ahead and defend themselves from the sleep attack before the fight.

So, not only does Con agree that the Star Fox team wins with the strategic advantage, but this strategic advantage also voids any move power advantage the Jigglypuffs had.

3. Firepower

My opponent understands that the Star Fox team has substantially stronger firepower than anything Jigglypuffs can possess. He attempts to refute this with a few interesting claims.

First, while there are seventeen weapons in Star Fox's arsenal, he seems to put a lot of his focus on just one: the Demon Launcher. First, he says that a demon launcher would only be provided to one player. This is not necessarily true. This statement would apply only to a battle between individuals, not a team battle, which is not available on Star Fox Assault Versus. Besides, even with just one Demon Launcher, there is enough ammunition to wipe out half the opposing team. The other sixteen weapons (which my opponent has not mentioned) can easily be used to handle the other three.

He then says that if the Star Fox team does have the inherent edge, then they would never get the Demon Launchers. This is true, but if the Star Fox team does have the inherent edge like my opponent is willing to suggest, then I win this debate, anyway.

Next, Con suggests that the Demon Launcher could be available to everyone because Wolf can receive access to it, too. If I stated that the Demon Launcher was exclusive to the Star Fox team, then I apologize for misspeaking. The Demon Launcher is exclusive to the Star Fox characters in the Star Fox universe. For the same reason Star Fox characters can't have Pokemon moves, Pokemon can't have a demon launcher. Either way, he openly says that will not contest that Jigglypuff does not get Star Fox weapons, so this argument is only a waste of space.

Next, he says that a Demon Launcher needs to see it's target in order to fire at it. This implies that the auto-lock feature is visual, when it actually doesn't work that way. There are instances where a weapon will lock on to an enemy behind a wall or likewise, where the missile can be fired, but does no damage. A Demon Missile would not explode on grass, so it's equally as effective as if there was no grass at all.

My opponent dropped the argument on Landmasters, though I assume he would say the same thing he said about Arwings: that they aren't immediately afforded to the team. My opponent is under the assumption that this likely fight is totally bound by versus rules. If that was the case, Star Fox would not be fighting Jigglypuffs at all. It is bound by the rules of the most likely situation, story mode and all. The Star Fox team would most likely arrive at this location in their mothership, the Great Fox, and fly out in Arwings, with which they would attack. They would do this because they strategize, which I mentioned earlier.

In short, my opponent is assuming that Demon Launchers are the only weapon Star Fox has going for them, and that the fight is totally bound by versus rules. Not only that, but he agreed that Star Fox has stronger firepower, so this contention should take up half as much space as it does.

4. Diversity

Again, my opponent addresses this contention with a red herring. "Diversity doesn't matter because Jigglypuffs can make you sleep." First of all, this is where diversity comes in handy. R.O.B. is a robot, which makes him immune to effects a humanoid brain would experience. In the game, R.O.B. acts as sort of a medic. He uses his skill to "repair" down characters.

In the end, diversity is just another advantage that trumps the sleep move.

Note: This is not a new argument. R.O.B. has his special abilities, and that is part of the team having diversity as their advantage,

5. Location

My opponent did not explicitly defend this contention last round. I will assume that he included it in the firepower contention and consider it refuted as such.

6. Move Power

Here are the moves my opponent has attempted to defend, followed by why they wouldn't be effective against Star Fox.

Defense Curl - This move would not give Jigglypuffs any kind of offensive advantage. On top of that, their vulnerability would never be zero, so however long it would take, Star Fox would eventually be able to defeat them.

Pound - You know what beats getting tackled by a ten-pound ball of air? A gun. See Firepower.

Disable - Disable is a Pokemon move used to disable other Pokemon moves. My opponent has done nothing to prove that disable would work against a weapon. This negates all of what my opponent has relied on through this debate.

Sing- My opponent chooses to use the Super Smash Bros. physics to define the accuracy of Sing. If this is the case, then Sing has an extremely low range, and opponents would only stay asleep for a few seconds, rendering Sing nearly useless. Disregarding all of this, we can still look at the diversity contention, where I explained that R.O.B. would be immune to Sing, and would act as a medic to the other members.

The few moves that the Jigglypuffs actually have available may be good for Pokemon, but against a real threat, they have nearly no effect.

?. Type Advantage

As we are relying on the game physics unique to each team, and for the same reason disable has no effect on the Star Fox Team, it is only fair that I withdraw this contention.

My Opponent Surrendered the Sources Point

In CX, my opponent surrendered the sources point for an error in R3. I am by no means demanding or even asking for this point, but it is warranted.

CONCLUSION

On top of all these contentions, the fighting skills of Star Fox have already been put to the test against Jigglypuff. Statistically, they won. with this evidence at hand, there is no way to negate the fact that Star Fox has, can, and will defeat Jigglypuff.

The resolution stands.



Old Evidence I Referred To

[1] http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
TN05

Con

The end of this debate is nigh, and first and foremost I want to thank my opponent for participating in it. This has been tremendously fun, and I hope my opponent has enjoyed it as well. With that out of the way, I will begin my final rebuttals.

I won't contest my opponent's value listings. Why? Because it really isn't that important since Jigglypuff owns in all of them. To begin, my opponent is only partially correct when he asserts that I misread that data table. I did in fact overestimate Jigglypuff's chances of beating Falco by 5% - that is, it is a 50/50 split as opposed to 55/45. However, I am absolutely correct in stating there is not given edge to either in a Fox-Jigglypuff fight.

Now, you may be thinking, "How is this so? My opponent's table clearly shows that Falco and Fox have the edge." However, his picture does not read the table correctly. The instructions clearly state to "choose a character from the left side". In my opponent's picture he is clearly looking at it from the right side. If you look at it from the left side, you get this:



When you correctly read the table, you get a 50/50 for Jigglypuff and no stats for Fox. If you need any more proof, these are the stats on Jigglypuff's Smash wiki page.[1] You can easily compare those with the big table, and they line up identically... so with this data doubly confirmed it should be obvious my opponent has no edge here. Per this debate's resolution ("In A Fight Between the Star Fox Team and Jigglypuff, the Star Fox Team Would Most Likely Win"), my opponent needs to prove the Star Fox team would most likely win to be awarded the victory. However, in his most important metric - statistical rankings - Star Fox team has no edge at all.

With my opponent's second contention, Strategy, he asserts Star Fox team could easily plan a strategy to defend against the sleep attack. How can they do this? He never says. I have already clearly established that anything that hears Jigglypuff's song will fall asleep, and it is impossible not to fall asleep once you hear it.[2] You can plan all you want, but there is literally nothing you can do to stop it, especially under the confines of the Star Fox Assault Versus mode rules - as I elaborated in the previous round.

To the third contention, weaponry, my opponent resorts to a confusing strategy. I did indeed focus mostly on the Demon Launcher, because it was literally the only handheld weapon outside of radar that he explicitly noted in his first round of debate. If my opponent's other weapons are so important, he would have noted how and why, but instead he put all of his eggs in the Demon Launcher basket. The problems I noted in round 3 were not disproved, but instead contradicted. My opponent's primary reasoning is that, if they lost their advantage, all members of Star Fox team would be awarded a Demon Launcher. As I established in round 3, however, there is no team mode in Star Fox Assault Versus mode, with each of four possible players fighting for themselves (their own de facto team). Only one Demon Launcher can be awarded per player, meaning one per de facto team By extrapolating the rules to allow for de jure teams (namely, Star Fox team and Jigglypuff team), it seems far more likely that only a single Demon Launcher would be awarded to a team rather than six Demon Launchers because the point of the weapon is not to reward losers and let them annihilate the other team, but to give losers a fighting chance. Other Nintendo games have this trend - for example, in Super Smash Bros. Brawl a pity Final Smash is given to a player who is very far behind. It isn't awarded to the whole team, just the player.[3]

Because I have proven the Jigglypuff team is superior and have no need for Demon Launchers, it makes sense Star Fox team would be given one. Although my opponent also questioned my arguments on the usefulness of the auto-lock feature, but never actually gave any evidence to prove it can effectively target enemies blind in a field of tall grass where you might not be able to tell who is friendly and who is not.

Also, if we are saying this is under the rules of Star Fox Assault Versus mode, it needs to follow the rules of that battle format. Giving Star Fox team an immediate advantage by letting them grab Arwings may sound nice, but it doesn't fit with the battle format that this hypothetical battle would be made on. Since it just doesn't fit the battle format at all, it must be disregarded.

On the fifth point, diversity, my opponent argues that R.O.B., being a robot, is immune to Jigglypuff's song. This is not the case, however, as, according to the Pokemon Emerald Pokedex, "Nothing can avoid falling asleep hearing a Jigglypuff's song".[4] Because all robots are (presumably) made of something, they will fall asleep to the song of Jigglypuff - R.O.B. is no exception, and my opponent's point is utterly negated.

Finally, to my opponent's sixth point: Move power. Like in round 3, my opponent treats defensive moves as utterly useless, but that is simply not the case. It is very easy to imagine a scenario where Defense Curl's boosted defense would allow a Jigglypuff to, say, charge directly into enemy fire to get close enough to put the opponent to use Sing. That kills two of my opponent's arguments with one stone! Similarly, he rejects the Disable move because he doesn't think it would work on non-Pokemon... well that's mighty convenient! Let's just pick and choose which weapons or moves can damage the other side! I'll leave the voters to decide this one.

In conclusion, I have conclusively demonstrated that a team of six Jigglypuffs could easily defeat the Star Fox Team. I have demonstrated the superiority of the Sing attack, as well as given several other moves the Jigglypuff team could use as well. I also noted the inherent advantage the Jigglypuff team would possess under the confines of location (meadow) and battle format (Star Fox Assault Versus mode). This goes far and beyond the resolution, in which simply proving Star Fox team doesn't have an edge would be sufficient, and so I would strongly urge a vote for Con.

References:
1. http://supersmashbros.wikia.com...
2. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
3. http://www.ssbwiki.com...
4. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net...
Debate Round No. 4
51 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Trollacracy 2 years ago
Trollacracy
I am extremely disappointed in this website due to the fact that this debate ended in a tie.

That is all.
Posted by MassiveDump 2 years ago
MassiveDump
It was a... tie tho.
Posted by MassiveDump 2 years ago
MassiveDump
It was a... tie tho.
Posted by MassiveDump 2 years ago
MassiveDump
It was a... tie tho.
Posted by Trollacracy 2 years ago
Trollacracy
I'm disappointed in this website due to the fact that con won.

That is all.
Posted by MassiveDump 3 years ago
MassiveDump
You too. It's rare I get to debate Star Fox, so when I do it's always a good time.
Posted by TN05 3 years ago
TN05
I guess a draw is fair here. Good debate!
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
To clarify, I have enough freckles to qualify as a ginger myself. We have more in common than red hair and whiskey. Oh, right I was clarifying: this is hilarious.
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
"or live out the rest of your life deprived and regretful," done. I crossed that off my bucket list a few years ago. Starfox I got but jigglypuff is a pokemon? When I laugh every time I search for a phrase its a definite win:
Posted by MassiveDump 3 years ago
MassiveDump
"less smarter."

"Less, Smarter."

u wot m8?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Galahad 3 years ago
Galahad
MassiveDumpTN05Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: While the technological and intelligence advantages that team star fox possesses do seem to give them the advantage in a fight with such a primordial creature, upon further investigation into the natural abilities of a Jigglypuff, I had to admit that their natural abilities did seem more than enough to be a match for an enemy such as team star fox, maybe even more than a match.
Vote Placed by Zaradi 3 years ago
Zaradi
MassiveDumpTN05Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Vote on this? Naaaaah I'm good.
Vote Placed by KingDebater 3 years ago
KingDebater
MassiveDumpTN05Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: All societies should let all types of people vote (with the exception of prisoners, the criminally insane, the Queen (the last two are interchangable), and all other royals. To not make use of a vote would be to throw the democratic/fair opportunity away, it would make no difference if it weren't there at all. If you don't vote, you cannot influence the decisions made as a result of the vote. I, a self-respecting person, will take advantage of every opportunity I am given, and it is for that reason that I am voting today. If I do not vote, decisions made as a result of the voting would go out of hand. People would riot, MassiveDump would win another debate and get 2 more ELO points in the process, parliament would be abolished to make way for the return of a monarchy that actually has power, objects would spontaneously combust, team debates would be put on this site, and a whole range of other things that I won't go too much into for now. What I'm saying is, I'm making my vote count!!
Vote Placed by Trollacracy 3 years ago
Trollacracy
MassiveDumpTN05Tied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Con relied too muchon sing, (which only has a 50% to hit) even if it did hit, it would only be asleep for 1-3 turns. Which means Jiggleypuff would get to hit a member of the team 1-3 times. Not to mention Jigglypuff has a pathetic base attack stat of 45! That's damn near the worst in the game! But in all, pro had more convincing arguments.