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In Christianity a "Saved" person can become not "Saved"

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/24/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 696 times Debate No: 23832
Debate Rounds (4)
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Round 1 is for Paradox_7 to decide weather or not to debate me on this.

We assume the Bible is Truth.

"Saved" meaning upon Death you would got to Hell due to Sin but Now upon Death you would go to Heaven because of faith in Jesus Christ's Death which covers your Sin.


Thanks to Callen for posting this debate.

I love discussing this topic, and hope for a very edifying discussion.

I have to warn my opponent.. I tend to lag on my responses, and if you check out my history of debates, I've forfeit a few due to not responding in time.

With that said, I will to my best to reply on time and provide my opponent with a full debate.

Debate Round No. 1


I appreciate your enthusiasm! Thank you for accepting and I’m glad you will enjoy this debate as much as I will.

Opening Statements

1. Mark 13:13 [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [NIV]

This will be the pinnacle of my arguments. This has got to be the most obvious verse for the point I want to make. This is a warning from Jesus to his disciples, past and present ones. Jesus is warning that people will hate Christians because of their belief that Jesus is in fact the Messiah, and that the Christians need to keep believing and never deny their loyalty to Jesus.

Matthew 10:33 “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (KJV)

Mark 13:13 says that those who uphold the name of Jesus at one point must continue to uphold the name of Jesus until the point of “the end”.

This leads me to my next scripture reference.

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (NIV)

So in order to be saved in the first place, a person would have to speak the words aloud “Jesus is Lord” and then believe that God raised him from the dead. Speaking these words aloud will make you saved. (along with believing). Now, according to Mark 13:13 people will start to hate you because you have spoken aloud the words “Jesus is Lord”. Jesus instructs that you must stand firm against this hate. In fact, it is safe to say that Jesus brings up the possibility that one could not stand firm until the end, in which case, said person would leave the “saved” category.

In conclusion, a person is only saved as long as he/she is under the protection of Jesus. As soon as a person would come out from under the protection that Jesus provided for them, they would re-enter death.



When ever discussing the topic of salvation, there are 2 things that must be understood. The Law, and the Gospel.

If a person doesn't not have a full understanding of these 2, conclusions like losing salvation will be a possibility.

The Law

Most of us should be familiar with the 10 commandments, and quite a few people believe that they can uphold them. However, I am only going to use the 2 greatest commandments to help me explain the extent of the Law.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.

Why do they all hang on these two?

Because the Law is spiritual, and if you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, you will uphold the all of the commandments perfectly. The heart is where we are judged first under the Law, not the actions that follow.

Now you may ask, does one need to obey them all "perfectly"?


Matt. 5:48
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

The Law requires perfect righteousness, requires that you obey willingly, and requires that you love to do it, for your entire life.

If you haven't figured it out by now, this is bad news. None of us follow the 2 greatest commandments, therefore, we break them all; everyday, all day.

Our hearts
Jeremiah 7:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

No one is righteous, understands, or seeks God
Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

So we have it very clearly established, that no one can uphold the Law, and if we are subject to judgement based on our hearts or actions- we are doomed.

The Gospel

This is the Good news, and after that last bit, it's much needed.

God is very well aware of our depravity, and knows us full an well, since before we were created, and far after we die. Surely he knew we would fail, and thanks be to him, he created an alternative; or was it always meant to be this way?

Enter Christ.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Simple.. live under the Law and surely die, or trust in Christ and receive eternal life.

Of course this is a very dumbed down version, but it is very important to emphasize on the essential factor, which is:
Faith in Christ = Salvation

The topic at hand

This is where it gets fun.

My opponent will have you believe, that along with belief, there is a list of other conditions that need to be met and complied with, in order to be saved; salvation is never sure.

Now, per john 3:16, how can he assert such a thing?

He posts:

Mark 13:13 [Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [NIV]

If we take this at face value, it's an apparent contradiction. Since we are debating the issue of salvation, we must hold that the Bible is infallible, and cannot contain such errors(which I personally believe as well).

For this, we must find something solid, something that cannot be reasonably interpreted any other way. I go to Ephesians:

4 For he[God] chose us in him[Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight(1). In love 5 he predestined us for adoption
to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment —to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.(2)

1) This very clearly says, that before creation, God chose whom he would save through Christ. It also says, that those who were chosen in Christ, would be holy and blameless in his sight; we would not be held accountable for our sinful lives.

He goes on to say, that this gift of salvation, was given to us freely; we did not earn it or maintain it.

2) With all wisdom and understanding. This says to me, that he knew we would all be unrighteous, and saved us anyways. He purposed this in Christ, meaning: It was always Christ who was to bring him pleasure, and all of us chosen in him he would be pleased with, because of Christ, not because of ourselves.

When my opponent expounds on the "stand firm until the end", he seems to imply something we must do, however, the passage from Ephesians seems to imply otherwise; God predestined his chosen to stand firm, because he placed belief in them. The passage from Matthew was not of uncertainty as to who will stand firm, and who won't, it was declaring very clearly, that those who are saved, will have no choice but to stand firm, because God chose them.

Matthew 10:33 “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (KJV)

For this passage I must ask my opponent:

Was the apostle Peter a case of last salvation, since he denied Christ 3 times before men?

Or does this mean, those who've denied him, were never meant to be saved, and never confessed Christ to begin with.

1 John 2:18-19
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Also, since I hold to our total depravity, I believe we will stumble and fall, time and time again, which is a testament to the grace of God and his promise to save those he's chosen to have faith:

2 Timothy 2:13
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Once saved, always saved

This brings me to my conclusion, which by now should be clear. We were predestined to be saved, by God, through Christ, NOT of ourselves. Since we have been removed from the equation, there is no sense in believing that we can some how lose our salvation due to actions or sin. We will never lose our salvation because we were chosen outside of ourselves, and since this is God's method of election, we cannot remove ourselves from his hand.

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad —in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Here once again, we see that God keeps the power to save, and that he wished for us to understand, that salvation is his gift to us. Not a reward of dedication or obedience.


14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

So be thankful sinners! You salvation is sure, and you can now rejoice knowing that Christ has paid the price- in full. So that you, his elect, may have eternal life.

Back to you Pro.
Debate Round No. 2


I agree with my opponent that everyone falls short and cannot uphold the law.

Romans 3:23

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (NIV)

“Simple.. live under the Law and surely die, or trust in Christ and receive eternal life.”





You say the bible has a contradiction when we look at these two scriptures. I say no, in fact, they only support each other.


( Dr. Edward Dalcour (and anyone else who knows Greek will tell you this) states that the original Greek word for ‘believes’ in John 3:16 is pisteuōn. He then elaborates and explains that pisteuōn means to possess belief and that this verse actually should say

For God so loved the world that he gave is only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believe and keep on believing in him, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

. So, John 3:16 goes along with Mark 13:13 very well. Don’t worry Paradox_7, there is no contradiction. At least not between these two verses.

They both tell us that in order to be saved, you must have faith in Jesus until the end.


Yes, you say God knew who would be saved from the beginning. But so what? If 5 people stop being saved, He still knew what the end result will be. Blank number of people will follow the Bible and get to go to Heaven.


“Simple.. live under the Law and surely die, or trust in Christ and receive eternal life.”

We still have free will to stop trusting in Christ.

Romans 8:5-8

English Standard Version (ESV)

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So you see, you must always deal with the internal fight in your mind. If your mind isn’t set on the things of God, then you are hostile towards him. You must fight for your faith in Him.

Christians are locked in an internal fight until the day they enter into Heaven, only then can they be free from the fleshly desires. This is true in the scripture.

Ephesians 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

The battle is not against flesh (other humans), but the nature of the flesh, because it is drawn towards evil.

Is it ok to keep sinning?


John 8:34

English Standard Version (ESV)

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave[a] to sin.


John 8:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The practice of Sin, makes you a slave to it. Jesus sets us free from sin. How does he do that? Did Jesus set everyone free from Sin? Jesus died so that you may decide to let Him set you free from Sin or not. Jesus doesn’t force you to accept his gift of salvation. If Jesus sets you free from your master, but then you go back to your master, are you still free? No.

Sin is the difference. Continuing in Sin after being “Saved” is the same as going back to your other owner.

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon.”

Mammon means “the wealth of this world”.

In order to be saved, you must have Jesus as your master and set your mind upon him. This is all under “Having faith in Jesus.” You must have faith that he is your master, and that this world is not your master. How can you have faith in that if you don’t live it out.

1 Corinthians 6:9 “Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality,”

Yes God is abundant in mercy but to keep on sinning on purpose even after accepting Gods mercy is described as “The Rape of God's Mercy” by Daryl Wingerd. If a saved person continues to Sin knowingly against God it is a smack in the face to Him. God hates Sin. To continue to serve it willingly after knowing that Jesus died for you is an abomination.


One last thing…

Matthew 12:31

31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.


Jesus says that blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. So even if your sins were covered by the blood of Jesus and you were “saved”, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is a one way ticket to Hell.



I'll begin this round by clarifying: I do not believe there is contradiction in the Bible, and that I merely pointed out, that without proper context, such passages can appear to be in contradiction; from that bad doctrine will follow.

My opponent begins, by stating a scripture should say something other than it does. I need not say it, but this is a no-no. Furthermore, to say "believes" already encompasses the idea of continued belief. It would be redundant for something like this to be said, because, as I will demonstrate, salvific belief (faith) is either present or absent; not wavering.

The passage from Ephesians and Romans is more than clear, and given the omniscient description of God in these passages and the many others like it, we can very easily say, if someone is not saved in the end, they were never saved to begin with.

My opponent completely ignores the passages and their clear effort to help those
in grace to understand: God is the judge, and he chose to save you; In spite of you.

We never would have chosen God (according to the scriptures), God had to place faith in us, AND had to sacrifice his son, so that we would be saved. *

As PRO has already agreed we all fall short of the glory of God, and we cannot uphold the LAW; not even to the slightest most insignificant way possible. Since it's been established, all who fall short of the law will perish, we know there is only one option; and this is Faith in Christ.

Romans 12:3
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Faith has been given to us, because we never would have found it otherwise. If we couldn't have found it in ourselves, then we know without God's complete intervention, we would not keep it!

John 10:25-30
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.(1) 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.30 I and the Father are one.”

(1) This is another clear passage to address those who do not endure until the end. These "pretenders" never understood the gospel, and thus, were never even sheep! He goes on to explain why he knows this- because no one can remove or be removed from his hand. He gives them eternal life, and they follow him; they do not turn into Sheppard’s or act as Sheppard’s, they follow the Sheppard.

More to the point continued below...

Romans 8:36-39
36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing in all creation can separate the elect from the love of God, and his promise to redeem those chosen IN
Christ. Now, I have heard quite often that we can remove ourselves; this is a ridiculous statement, as we can see above^.

1. Nothing in creation can remove us
2. We are created
3. Therefore we cannot remove ourselves

Another passage my opponent simply hand waived, was the passage from 1 John 2:18-19

1 John 2:18-19
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

This again, demonstrates to us, that if any one were to commit apostasy, or become swayed elsewhere - they were never saved to start. We never had the choice or option to accept Christ; God did. He placed our faith in us, and those who've not been saved, were never meant to be.

As I posted, also in the last round:

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Outside of God's purpose, there is no reason we were saved, and there is nothing we could do to remove ourselves.

1 Corinthians 7:22
22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave.

Slaves cannot chose to be free once they've been bought and paid for, as we were paid for, by Christ’s blood.

Sinners because we Sin, or Sin because we're Sinners?

My opponent then continues to contradict himself, by asserting we must do something(works of ourselves) in order to maintain our salvation, after stating that we all fall short of the LAW! As I expressed very adamantly in the 2nd round: When you have no understanding of LAW and Gospel, you will undoubtedly make these sorts of errors.

You are either under the Law, or elected to the Gospel; there is no middle ground.

The Law = perfection

with the passage from Romans 8, my opponent again makes the mistake of diluting the Law, into something I like to call: Law-lite. He describes a struggle we must adhere too, and while I agree very strongly that there is a struggle, I do not see any solid reason, for my opponent to imply that this struggle is to determine your salvation. The passages are divided into Justification vs. Sanctification.

Justification - Our status of salvation; Christ

Sanctification - Our growth in Christ and knowledge of God

it is insulting to insinuate Paul believed in works. Paul actually shows a hint of distain when speaking of those who seek justification by works; by the law. The law was meant for Christ to uphold, and for us to recognize sin and our depravity (Romans 7).

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to dothis I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin

So as you can see. We were never meant to stop sinning in this life, because we are infected to deeply by sin; the heart is beyond cure(Jer. 7:9). The only way for us to recieve salvation is through Christ, and his works.

Salvation is a Gift from God, to whom ever he chooses. Once a person has been chosen, they are chosen before all time, until the end of time, and there is nothing one of them could do to remove themselves from Gods favor.

Blasphemy against the spirit, is denying Christ's work was for the complete remission of all sins. Those who adhere to this belief, are those who never belonged.

Debate Round No. 3


Callen13 forfeited this round.


Since my opponent forfeit, I wil wrap this up quickly.

Salvation is for those God chose to believe. If you die and are not saved, then it makes absolutley no sense to say that you were saved at some point in time; all the saved means, is saved in the end.

God predestines his elect, and predestines the non-elect to serve in his purpose of glorification. Us as humans do not like this position, because it pretty much eliminates our chances of special recognition.

The scriptures speak most clearly about how we recieve pardon, and how we will endure until the end. Since this has been established as concrete, all other passages must be read in light of the more plain texts.

If it is said the those who leave were never among us; then it must be so, and it follows that any passages that seem to imply apostacy as something a true believer can do, must be cross referenced both to passages of similar nature, and those where the message is plain and clear.

My opponent looks to 1 Corinthians 6:9 for support, but the very implication of self-righteousness deny's him this assistance.

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The last verse of this passage was not included for some reason in my opponents use of it. It, however, still affirms what I've been saying. Those whom were justified by God through Christ, are not any better now that they are saved, they are graciously marked with the seal of God's promise, and seen through the lens of Christ as just.

Since God views us in light of his son, we are seen as holy, righteous beings. Pauls confession in Romans 7 should be enough to derail any argument for works or self-righteousness in this passage (or any others).

Since we cannot uphold the LAW, we cannot do good (even if we know it), and cannot be placed or removed of God's love from ourselves; it only makes sense that once you are saved, you are saved. period.

Vote CON.
Debate Round No. 4
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Callen13 4 years ago
wait, Paradox_7, are you saying that everyone is saved? no matter what? EVERYONE is going to heaven?
No votes have been placed for this debate.