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LoopsEye
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The Contender
saleh
Pro (for)
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In Holy Bible Did Jesus(P.B.U.H) died on Cross?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/22/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,556 times Debate No: 36919
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LoopsEye

Con

In the name of God, The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful.


Greetings to All Readers!

the topic Under debate will be "In Holy Bible Did Jesus(P.B.U.H) died on Cross?"

First Round can be of Acceptance & If Pro would like to Take BOP(Burden of Proof) & build his case He can go ahead or else I would defend my case.

then the debate will go on to defy eachothers claim.

I have let lose the Limit of text to express yourself better but please be precise (don't be emotional) use simple English to reach all readers.


Rules!

1] The Pro should be a wise learned person and rational thinker. [not just an orthodox follower of religion]


2] Evidence can only be a logical statement or Proven Facts.

3] Illustrating Examples is allowed.

4] Be Precise and to the point.

5] Both can Establish Their Own Cases [Please Sensible]

6] Bible would be considered the Primary source of Information

where statement of God > JESUS > apostles > pupils > Church > Scholars.

('>' is sign of greater than)


VOTERS: Please be logical and true while voting I seriously want to establish the fact of the argument being right or wrong. not only to defend a religion or to be emotional ... Do not fall for Love in Christ .. I Love Jesus (P.B.U.H) & Respect Him His Great Teachings and Honor Him Above All Humans.

Moreover You have to state valid reason for Your Honored Vote.

Thanks.

Purpose: Well the purpose of my previous, this and up coming debates is never to hurt any personal or private feelings of anyone I believe the purpose always be to learn and seek knowledge and establish Truth & the right facts for the people out there and to make people understand the difference between Rational & Irrational Thoughts.


Praise to Almighty Lord Who is Greater then All.
saleh

Pro

i will accept this debate......good luck to you! i will use islamic sources if i need to and translate them from arabic(i am arabic language speaker)....



Debate Round No. 1
LoopsEye

Con

Mr. Saleh & All Readers Good Day Please Excuse me for this Round .. Today is My Wedding Anniversary .. I would not be able to start debate inspite of i wanted to give it a go.. I would come again to post my argument .. i kept 5 rounds so if anything happens we could skip one of them.. i would like to apologize to Pro and All for inconvince.. Thanks.. I shall be back Soon

Loopseye
saleh

Pro

The crucifixion and the resurrection according to Christ was not an end of life on earth, nor martyrdom or even just an execution on the cross...but as the new testament said by peter:

1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And when he (peter) said to Jewish people :

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

As well as jesus had confirmed that the redemption was his first priority :

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And he was calling the time of death (crucifixion) as the hour:

Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

First :the prophecies and statements of jesus Christ from the beginning of his ministry about death and crucifixion

(1)when the people said to him to give them a sign- although he made a lot of miracles-he said :

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

(2) Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

(3) when Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews came to jesus at night he said to him :

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

(4) Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

(5) Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Secondly :the prophecies of the old testament (b.c) about messiah

(1) the betraying by Judah

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

The fulfillment in new testament :

Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

(2)that he will be sold for 30 pieces of silver

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

In the new testament :

Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver

(3)that he will be beaten

Mic 5:1 they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

Fulfillment in the new testament

Mat 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

(4) that he will be crucified

Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

In the new testament:

Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

(5) that he will be crucified between two thieves

Isa 53:12 and he was numbered with the transgressors

In the new testament:

Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

6) that he will be strike by a spear and not broke any of his bones)

nor break any bone of it Num 9:12

Zec 12:10and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced

In the new testament:

Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

And there are so many prophecies about jesus Christ ……

Thirdly : historical evidence and documents

(1) tacitus roman historian:

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".

Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44

(2) Lucian of Samosata (Born 125 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine 11–13, translated by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler in The Works of Lucian of Samosata

(3) pontuis pilatus report:

http://www.newadvent.org...

(4)josephus:

In the Antiquities of the Jews (written about 93 AD) Jewish historian Josephus, stated (Ant 18.3) that Jesus was crucified by Pilate, writing that:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, ... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles ... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross ...

Debate Round No. 2
LoopsEye

Con


The Topic: Did Jesus (PBUH) really Died on the Cross?

Or we can also say was Jesus Really Crucified?

Before I continue to My Argument I would like to give two definition which everyone should be very clear about.

Definitions:

Crucifying:

Oxford Dictionary: put (someone) to death by nailing or binding them to a cross. http://tiny.cc...

Cambridge Dictionary: to kill someone by tying or fastening them with nails to a cross & leaving them there to die.http://tiny.cc...

Dictonary.com: to put to death by nailing or binding the hands & feet to a cross. http://tiny.cc...


Resurrection:

Oxford Dictionary: the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected (rising from death, Act of Jesus Christ to rise fomr death) http://tiny.cc...

Cambridge Dictionary: the act of bringing to life that had died or ended back into existence. http://tiny.cc...

Dictonary.com: the act of rising from the dead. http://tiny.cc...

“In short, For Christ to be resurrected he has to Die, if he does not die He is not resurrected was not crucified.”

According to Jesus (PBUH), he says in the Gospel of Mathew,

That, “A person can obtain salvation by keeping the law & the commandments.” (Ch 19:V16 – 17)

But according to St. Paul, he nails the laws & commandments to the cross, cross, cross, cross, as you He nails the law & commandment to the cross as he says in Colossians,

“& Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death & resurrection of Jesus (PBUH)”

(Ch 2:V14)

& he quotes, the New Testament 1st Corinthians

“& if Christ has not risen from the dead our preaching is in vain & your faith is in vain”

(Ch15:V14)

That all your good deeds, all your charity, without believing in Christ died for the sin, it is useless. Quoting from Isaiah

“That all our righteousness, all our good deeds are like filthy rags”.

(Ch64: V6)

If you don’t believe Jesus Christ (PBUH) died on the cross for the sin of humanity, all your righteousness, all your good deeds are like filthy rags i.e. if there’s no cross, if there’s no crucifixion, there’s no Christianity.

Let’s see what St. Paul has to say regarding resurrection.

St. Paul, he comments on resurrected bodies, Ch. 1st Corinthians Ch. 15

Paul says: “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in in-corruption. It is sown in dishonor it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body”, “There’s a natural body & there’s a spiritual body”.
(Ch15, V42 to 44)

According to St. Paul the resurrected bodies are spiritualized. They are spiritualized.

Same said The JESUS (PBUH) His & Our Lord in Gospel of Luke,



Jesus (PBUH) says in the Gospel of Luke,

“That resurrected bodies they do not marry, neither do they give in marriage”

“ Neither shall they die anymore. They are equal unto the Angels”,

(Ch20, V35-36)

That means they shall be Angelised, resurrected body will be spiritualized. Who says that? Jesus says that in Gospel of Luke .Paul says that in 1st Corinthians.

Please Note: & there’s not a single unequivocal & unambiguous Verse anywhere in the Gospels which says that Jesus (PBUH) was resurrected.


-----

So let me Start the Story of Crucifixion & Resurrection The Dying of Jesus on Cross & Coming Back to Life.

The story in Gospel of Luke Ch. 24,

That after the alleged crucifixion when the disciples, they meet in the upper room,

Jesus (PBUH) comes, & he says to the disciple, “Shalom”

(Ch24:V36)

Next Verse says,

“But they were terrified & affrighted & supposed him to be a spirit” (Ch24:V37)


why did the disciples think Jesus (PBUH) to be a spirit?

Did Jesus look like a spirit? NO!

Jesus Christ (PBUH) did not look like a spirit, then why did they think that he was a spirit?

The reason is because they had heard from the “hearsay” that their master Jesus (PBUH) was put on the cross. They had learnt from hearsay that he had given up the ghost that he had died. They had learnt from hearsay that he was dead & buried in the grave for three days. Hearsay, hearsay. You know why? Because they (the disciples) were not eye witnesses.

Now, Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) to clarify their doubt, says in next 2 Verses in Gospel of Luke:

“Behold my hands & feet, it is I myself. Handle me & see for a spirit has no flesh & bone”, As you see me I have. He tells them behold my hands & feet, it is I myself, your lord & master Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him), why you’re frightened? Handle me & see, behold my hands & feet for a spirit has no flesh & bones.

What was he trying to prove by showing his hands & feet? He was trying to prove He was not a Spirit That He was alive not resurrected in his flesh & bones, a physical body.

Next Verses, Gospel of Luke, Ch24, V41-42, says,

”They were overjoyed and they wondered.”

i.e. They thought he is dead and now they are happy that their lord and master is alive, physical with flesh and bones in front of them. They are happy. Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) yet to confirm them says that,

“Do you have any meat here?” And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and a honeycomb. And he took it and he ate before them. To prove what? That he was resurrected? To prove that he was a spirit? NO! To prove that he was a physical body. He ate and he chewed in front of them. A piece of broiled fish and honeycomb, to prove that he was not resurrected, he was not a spirit. But he was in flesh and bones, a physical body if no resurrection, no crucifixion, no Christianity.

The story of Mary Magdalene

Gospel of John, Ch2: V1 & Gospel of Mark, that

it was the first day of the week, i.e Sunday, Sabbath day is Saturday for the Jews. So first day of the week is Sunday.

“It was the first day of the week that Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb.” (Ch16:V2)

Now why should Mary Magdalene go to the tomb on third day after Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) supposedly was dead? The reply is given in the Verse earlier,

Gospel of Mark, Ch16 V1 that

But natural, she’s

not going to say, “he’s alive”. Otherwise they will put him to death again.

Seeing certain life in the limp body of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) she comes back on the third day after the Sabbath day to look for “Alive” Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him).

Gospel of John, Ch20, V1, say that

“She finds that the stone has been removed, and even the winding sheets they are unwound and placed in a pile.”

Knowing very well, what is the reason, but yet asking?

She says and supposed him to be a gardener. She asks him,

“Where have you taken him?” and laid him? So that I may take him away

(Why Him? Do we call dead bodies Him? Or It? Because He was alive and she knew!)

Tell me, why did Mary Magdalene supposed Jesus to be (Peace Be Upon Him) a gardener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No!

So why should she suppose that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a gardener? because he was disguised as a gardener.

Now, why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener? Jesus Christ was disguised as a gardener (Peace Be Upon Him) because he was afraid of the Jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the Jews, why?

Because according to Hebrew, Ch9, V27,

“A man dies only once. And after that is the Day of Judgment.”

Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) said in the Gospel of Luke, Ch20, V36,

“Neither shall you die anymore”.

it continues in V17,

“I have not yet ascended unto my father” meaning what? That he has not yet been dead. Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) unequivocally says that he has not yet been resurrected, proving that he was alive.

I WOULD FURTHER LIKE TO GIVE A SHORT NOTE ABOUT .. SIGN OF JONAH...

WHICH IS NOT LESS A PROOF THAT JESUS WAS ALIVE!!!...

http://tiny.cc...

Due to Limited Text Im not able to write it here so read it there i have wrote it in a seperate page.


CONCLUSION

Point number One. he was not resurrected, because he was alive. If he’s alive, no crucifixion, no resurrection.He was put on the cross and bought down very fast. In three hours. In three hours it’s difficult for a person to die. Therefore Jesus was alive.

Point number two. When he’s bought down, even his two cross mates they are alive. Proving that even Jesus was alive.

Point number three his legs were not broken. What use is a broken leg to a dead man? Proving that he was alive.

Point number four: That the stone was removed and the winding sheets were unwound, proving that Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) was alive.

Point number five: That he was disguised as a gardener. Why? Because he was alive trying to be saved from the Jews.
Point number six: That when Mary Magdalene goes to touch Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) he says touch me not. Why? He was a physical body. He was alive. It will hurt him, he was in pain. Proving that he was alive.

Point number Seven: Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) says that I have not yet ascended unto my father. That means he was alive.

Point number Eight: Mary Magdalene WAS not afraid recognizing Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him).

Point number Nine: That in the upper room he shows his hands and feet to prove that he was not a spirit but he was alive.

Point number Ten: That they were overjoyed to see him. Why? Because they thought he’s dead and the spirit form. They were overjoyed to see because he was alive.

Point number eleven: He ate a piece of broiled fish and honey comb to prove that he was alive.

Point number twelve: The disciples had heard from Mary Magdalene that he was alive.

Point number thirteen: The Sign of Jonah. As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth alive, alive, alive; if he’s alive, no crucifixion, no resurrection.

So in short, Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) was put on the cross according to the Bible, but he did not die.

saleh

Pro

the peace of jesus be with all of you!
let me begin that con did not respond and he will not be able to respond on what i have represented from the bible (new testament -old testament) that shows clearly that jesus was crucified on cross .....and the historical document and evidences that confirms jesus's crucifixion .....
first :the quran and crucifixion of jesus
con first evidence is the verse from quran (ch4 v157) and its the only verse in the whole quran the about jesus crucifixion .....but is it really that jesus was mad to resemble him with another person or the translation is wrong??
the translation above is sahih international ....but if we look to other translations we will find :
Pickthall
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them
Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them
.....and this the literal translation of the words (شبه لهم)
so it is not meant in the quran that jesus was been replaced with another man but it was appear to the people who were seeing the event......
secondly:the fairy tale about jesus and raising him to god in the commentaries of the quran
the qurtubi (muslim scholar) he said
(وأما المسيح فكساه الله الريش وألبسه النور وقطع عنه لذة المطعم والمشرب فطار مع الملائكة)

القرطبي –الجامع لاحكام القران-ال عمران55
the translation is ((and the messiah god dressed him feathers and light and he cut the food and the drink away from him and flies away with angels )
....why feathers !!!?
in another story he told us that:

) ورفع الله تعالى عيسى من روزنة كانت في البيت إلى السماء ) القرطبي –الجامع لاحكام القران-ال عمران 55

The translation is (and god raised jesus from a small window
as you can see there are differences in the stories,beside no one can identify who was on the cross instead of jesus ....!
let's suppose the there is someone who crucified instead of jesus ...where is the justice of god ???

thirdly:these verses in the quran is not a new thing about crucifixion of jesus but it was in the hearasy of the early christianity like gnosticism who said :
" and Jesus as a spirit that “seemed”[72] to be human, leading to a rejection of the incarnation (Docetism)."http://en.wikipedia.org...
2-docetism:
"In one version, Christ was so divine he could not have been human, since God lacked a material body, which therefore could not physically suffer. Jesus only appeared to be a flesh-and-blood man, his body was a phantasm. Other groups who were accused of docetism held that Jesus was a man in the flesh, but Christ was a separate entity, who entered Jesus’s body in the form of a dove at his baptism, empowered him to perform miracles, and abandoned him on his death on the cross"http://en.wikipedia.org...
....and finally this verse of quran can not hold in the face of hitorical document and if the disciples were been deceived why god (allah) wait 600 years to show that jesus was not really dead nor crucify...
you said"

“In short, For Christ to be resurrected he has to Die, if he does not die He is not resurrected was not crucified.”
but the muslim scholar (al razi) said :

( إني متوفيك ) أي أجعلك كالمتوفى ؛ لأنه إذا رفع إلى السماء وانقطع خبره وأثره عن الأرض كان كالمتوفى ...التفسير الكبير
the translation is (i will made you die: because if he was raised and his news been cut off on earth like he was as a dead body)
...
you said

That, “A person can obtain salvation by keeping the law & the commandments.” (Ch 19:V16 – 17)
1
-what the name of translation please? because i can not find a passage like that !
2-mat 19:17"

(GNT-TR) ο δε ειπεν αυτω τι με λεγεις αγαθον ουδεις αγαθος ει μη εις ο θεος ει δε θελεις εισελθειν εις την ζωην τηρησον τας εντολας

there is no word "salvation "in greek ....
3-jesus was talking to jewish man and he have not been crucified or resurructed .....
you say" That all your good deeds, all your charity, without believing in Christ died for the sin, it is useless"
that is right ! no one can do any thing to reach perfection or to say god i did all things right and i did not make any mistake ....the quran says

Muhsin Khan

There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.ch19:71
you said"

According to St. Paul the resurrected bodies are spiritualized. They are spiritualized."
yes the bodies like the spirit because will reserructed in the day of judgment in spiritual body (without sins) or holy bodies not just a spirit

you said"

Please Note: & there’s not a single unequivocal & unambiguous Verse anywhere in the Gospels which says that Jesus (PBUH) was resurrected."
what?! Mat 27:64:He is risen from the dead
and risen from dead is the same as reserruction as you gave us above!!

you said"

“But they were terrified & affrighted & supposed him to be a spirit” (Ch24:V37)"
they supposed that is not mean that he was really a spirit...
besids you have said NO!
therefore jesus was bodily raised
further more,alRAZI commented in (التفسير الكبير):
(رفع بتمامه إلى السماء بروحه وبجسده )
the translation is (jesus was raised to god in his body and spirit)
you said that jews did not anoint dead people .....who say that give me one reference of this ???

you said"

Seeing certain life in the limp body of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) she comes back on the third day after the Sabbath day to look for “Alive” Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him)."

this is unsupported point! ....if we look again to the bible this point will collapse completely...

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
he has pierced his side to make sure he was dead...!
you said :"

“Where have you taken him?” and laid him? So that I may take him away”

(Why Him? Do we call dead bodies Him? Or It? Because He was alive and she knew!)...
you gave us no reason to think that....but only on your fallacious understanding?!
the sign of jonah is a symbol of jesus not the same literal story..
finally the conclusion you made is not supported by any evidence....so i can easily refute them.....
further more ,the disciples suddenly believe in the crucifixion and the reserruction and the have died in the name of this event ..
conclusion:1-the bible states that jesus was really crucified and reserructed
2-the historical document also state that
3-jesus left an empty tomb behind him(bodily raised)
4-he have appear to many people after his raising from dead
4-the disciples preach that so strongly and the faith of the early christians is based on that....
5-the theories of jesus was not really dead are refuted by many historians as well as there is no reason to think that..
6-the quran contradicts with history also with reason

 








Debate Round No. 3
LoopsEye

Con

Good Day to all May Peace and Mercy be Upon the Seeker of Truth.

MY QUESTIONS WENT UNANSWERED

Before continuing to my Rebuttals I would like to mention some things.


ABOVE PHOTO ENLARGED HERE: http://oi42.tinypic.com...

Due to limited text I was unable to rebut what Pro claimed If I got space I would sulrly do it.

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK PRO, WHAT IS MORE AUTHENTIC TO HIM?

HOLY BIBLE? OR UNHOLY HISTORY?

For an instance (just for a moment) if we believe Jesus(P B U H) was crucified then that means bible contradicts at several Place..

So My Questions went unanswered I would Like to Quote from My Previous argument and ask Pro what does it means please give me a reasonable answer (though I have not reported it out of context).

  1. If Jesus died then Mary Mangle came to anoint Dead Jesus (or Alive Jesus)?

[It only sounds logical if she already knew that He will be alive there and she went to look after him and massage him and said please tell me where is He and where you laid Him so that I take Him away.] How she knew? Because she was there while they brought him down from cross and gave the burial bath.

Proof#1

  1. If Jesus died & resurrected then according to Jesus’s saying Luke 20: V35 to 36 and St. Paul’s saying in 1st Corinthians15: V42 to 44 his body has to be spiritualized.
    1. a. And Spiritualized Bodies do not need winding sheets to be unwounded.
    2. b. Stones cannot block a Spiritualized body (but blocks a Physical Alive Body)

Proof#2

  1. If Jesus was dead then why did he said “I have not yet ascended unto my father” (John20 V17) --Which is the Strongest Point from the Mouth of Jesus that “He has not died yet”.

Proof#3

  1. If Jesus died then that means He has resurrectedand resurrected bodies are Spirit as previously told then..
    1. a. Disciples got frightened. Why Frightened? See Luke24: V37, “But they were terrified & affrighted & supposed him to be a spirit”.
    2. b. What did Jesus do then? Read Luke24: V38 & 39.. “Behold my hands & feet, it is I myself. Handle me & see for a spirit has no flesh & bone” why did He says that? Naturally one will answer; to Prove He is not a Spirit but an Alive Jesus who has not resurrected, thus not spiritualized! [Remember Jesus said in Luke20: V35-36 & St. Paul said in 1st Corinthians15: V42-44 that resurrected bodies are spiritualized!]
    3. c. Moreover Jesus(PBUH) ate Broiled Fish and Honeycomb to Prove what? That He is not a Spirit. [But Remember Jesus said in Luke20: V35-36 & St. Paul said in 1st Corinthians15: V42-44 that resurrected bodies are spiritualized!] That means He was not resurrected.

Proof#4

  1. 5. Sign of Jonah.
    1. a. Jonah Volantearly offered himself to be thrown in Sea they do not had to persue him and hit him and throw, that means Jonah was Thrown Alive! (Jonah 1:12)
    2. b. Jonah was 3 Days and 3 Nights Praying and Crying in the belly of Whale that means, He was Alive there also, for dead men don’t pray don’t cry. (Jonah 2:1)
    3. c. Jonah was Vomited out at Shore and He was Alive!.

Alive!, Alive!, Alive!.

What was the Jesus’s Prophecy? Read Matthew 12:39-40


WEEK

IN THE SEPULCHER

Days

Nights

FRIDAY -placed in tomb just before sunset

- nil -

One night

SATURDAY - supposed to be in tomb

One day

One night

SUNDAY - missing before sunrise

- nil -

- nil -

TOTAL

One Day

Two Nights

THIS IS ONE NIGHT AND ONE FULL DAY NO ONE WILL DOUBT! WHICH IS AGAIN A CHALLNEGE TO CHRISTIANS THAT DID JESUS (GOD FORBID) LIED? IF THAT HE WILL BE THERE FOR 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS.

Hence Time was not the Prophecy so there is no other reason left to associate the sign to be given will be Sign of Jonah! i.e. Jesus will be Alive.

This is Proof#5 that JESUS P.B.U.H was Alive!

I would ask Con Please answer these? “In Simple Plain Language”

REBUTTALS

  1. Rebuttal#1

QURAN & CURCIFICTION OF JESUS!

Before starting My Debate I believe I did not made any mistake to present the Islamic View Point of Jesus’s Crucifiction!

Still Con has Misquoted so let me rebut it!

He says: that it’s a mistranslation lets see..

Ch 4: V:157

Sahi Intl.: [another] was made to resemble him to them.

(Sahi Intl. Translation is the Translation which explains the context i.e. its Translaiton+Commentary for easy understanding the context of Verse BUT! MEANING DOES NOT CHANGES!)

Pikthal: but it appeared so unto them

Mosin Khan: but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)

LETS SEE WHAT NON-MUSLIM TRANSLATORS TRANSLATE IT!

Edward Henry Palmer: but a similitude was made for them

N J Dawood (draft): but they thought they did

Arthur John Arberry: only a likeness of that was shown to them.

http://tiny.cc...

Conclusion

Ressembled to him = Appered so unto them = similitude = likeness of that was shown = they thought they did

From above we see that all the Translators are trying to say in their own words that “He was not crucified but an illusion or misapprehension or hallucination was shown to them but they slay him not nor did they killed him” I have given Link to all the Quranic Translations which Clearly Mention that JESUS was neither Killed Nor Crucified According to Islam. http://tiny.cc...

  1. Second Rebuttal

Pro has mentioned about some.. “Qurtubi”

Who is Qurtubi? I think He is Unaware of Islam.. there are a million scholars out there some may be right other may be wrong.

BUT! ALL MUSLIM SCHOLARS INCLUDING 4 MOST HONORABLE SCHOLARS OF ISLAM (SHAFI, HAMBALI, HANAFI SAID) “ If I say something, then compare it to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah(PRACTICE) of His messenger and if it agrees to them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall” – This is a saying of ash-Shafi’ee-rahimaullah. See Al-Majmoo’ of an-Nawawee (1/63).

Now tell me who is Qurtubi? I think I do not have to say more about what Qurtubi said..

  1. Third Rebuttal

What Quran says about the Crucifiction has also been followed by many Christian Sects. Which was Known as “ THEORY OF SUBSTITUTION ” !! including the sects..

  1. Fourth Rebuttal

Pro said: let's suppose the there is someone who crucified instead of jesus ...where is the justice of god???

Answer: I think Pro is unaware of the muslim belief of this incident he has not even cared to read what Muslims belief...Muslims and Quran do not deny the incident! According to Muslim Doctrine The person who was made Resemble to Jesus was one who betrayed Jesus for 50 Pieces of Silver Judas, He was the one who was crucified I can give –Clear Cut Evidence by Jesus’s Mouth- about Judas

  1. Fifth. Rebuttal

I have too much to say but due to Limitation I cannot speak...

What Muslims believe about Jesus also resembles many Historical Evidences.. e.g.



OTHER REBUTTALS

  • FOR AL-RAZI PLEASE SEE MY 2ND REBUTTAL
  • A person can obtain salvation by keeping the law & the commandments. THIS I WROTE FROM KJV OF BIBLE ITS NOT TRANSLATION BUT CONTEXT OF VERSE “..Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
  • Brother St. Paul did not mention Body! Its your false claim neither did Jesus said that body rises after resurrection

I was expecting you to Quote this Verse “He is risen from dead” I said “unequivocal & unambiguous verse” see meaning of these two words brother.

Still Here is the Context of Mathew 27 V64:

62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,

63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.

“HE THOUGHT PEOPLE MAY SAY THAT HE IS RISEN FROM DEATH ITS NO REALITY BROTHER”

  • About :Al RAZI comment in Tafseer AlKbaeer .. its not only Razi but Every Muslims says that he was rised to Heavens with His Body & Spirit its our belief whats wrong with this?Nothing! What It Proves? That God picked Jesus above the heavens with his body and soul before they crucified him.. Thats fine..
  • For Jews Anointed or Not The Burdon of Proof is on You Brother You have to tell me did she went to massage 3 days old corpse of Jesus or an Alive Jesus?
  • certain life in the limp body of Jesus..: is not unsupported because she was one of those who gave him the burial bath!!

Similarities Between Jesus & Jonah! What prophecies can be? Pro has not at all commented on it only just denied it

Fact

Jonah

Jesus

TIME FACTOR ---- not same so not this

3 Days & 3 Nights

1 Day & 1 Night

WAS JESUS IN WHALE? –not same

In whale

In earth

DID JONAH RESSURECTED DEATH? NO

SO TO FILL PROPHECY CAN JESUS? NO

NO

YES(according to pro)

THE ONLY FACTOR LEFT IS OF BEING DEAD OR ALIVE… AS JONAH WAS ALIVE JESUS HAS TO BE ALIVE!!

PRO’S CONCLUSIONS ARE HIS SELF ASSUMED THOUGHTS WITHOUT ANY PROOF AND LOGIC AND AS FAR AS HIS CLAIMS WERE CONCEREND I HAVE CLEARED THEM IN VERY DETIAL I CAN TELL MORE IF ANYONE WANTS TO ASK JUST COMMENT PLEASE!

CONCLUSION

Nearly all my points are still unanswered Pro have not cleared even a single but made a false claim that Quran says Jesus was crucified which is exactly opposite of the meaning of the verse and can all translations including non muslims be wrong????

THINK! GOD BLESS YOU..

“When truth is hurled against falsehood, for falsehood parishes, falsehood is by its nature bound to parish.”

(Quran 17: v81)

http://www.angelfire.com...

http://tiny.cc...;

http://forum.casebook.org...

http://adishakti.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...



I WOULD LIKE TO ADD AT THE END:

EVERY TIME I COME ACROSS A NEW CHRISTIAN I HEAR A NEW STORY ABOUT THE FACTS & FICTION WHAT HAPPEND IN BIBLE.......

saleh

Pro

the peace of jesus christ be with all of you.....

first: con has given us that some words arabic language have different meaning....well that is right but not in the verse above.....you see there is big difference between شبه لهم and شبه به....
the first word is (appeared unto them ) ....but the second is ( another was made to resemble him).....but in the quran the first word exist....

let us give the chance to the audience to decide...!

con said:

"I WOULD LIKE TO ASK PRO, WHAT IS MORE AUTHENTIC TO HIM?

HOLY BIBLE? OR UNHOLY HISTORY?"

i would say that the bible is what i believe but if the historical document support it that will make the arguement for crucifixion sound and the bible is reliable and accurate unlike the quran.....!!!

you said:

"For an instance (just for a moment) if we believe Jesus(P B U H) was crucified then that means bible contradicts at several Place.."

there is no contradictions but in your mind on the basis of your mistakes....

you said"

[It only sounds logical if she already knew that He will be alive there and she went to look after him and massage him and said please tell me where is He and where you laid Him so that I take Him away.] How she knew? Because she was there while they brought him down from cross and gave the burial bath."

not it is not .....let us see the passages again

Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 
Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay
...mary magdelene came to the tomb in the dawn of sabbath (saturday) she has no idea what is going on .... she just came to annoited the body of jesus christ....that confirms he was dead
and i ask you what the point of your writing?....there is no single clue in your saying that jesus is alive...!!!!!

rebuttles:
proof#1
as i said before it is spiritual bodies not only spirit and spiritual body means a glorify(physical) body or holy body ...!!!
proof #2 where is that he is alive before burial!!!......he has reserructed in physical body then appear to her...let me qoute from barnes commetary:
"Touch me not ... - This passage has given rise to a variety of interpretations. Jesus required Thomas to touch him Joh_20:27, and it has been difficult to ascertain why he forbade this now to Mary. 
The reason why he directed Thomas to do this was, that he doubted whether he had been restored to life. Mary did not doubt that. The reason why he forbade her to touch him now is to be sought in the circumstances of the case
. Mary, filled with joy and gratitude, was about to prostrate herself at his feet, disposed to remain with him, and offer him there her homage as her risen Lord. This is probably included in the word touch in this place; and the language of Jesus may mean this: “Do not approach me now for this purpose. Do not delay here. Other opportunities will yet be afforded to see me
. I have not yet ascended - that is, I am not about to ascend immediately, but shall remain yet on earth to afford opportunity to my disciples to enjoy my presence.” From Mat_28:9, it appears that the women, when they met Jesus, held him by the feet and worshipped him.
This species of adoration it was probably the intention of Mary to offer, and this, at that time, Jesus forbade, and directed her to go at once and give his disciples notice that he had risen."

proof#3
we will rise in the judgment day in our bodies .....as jesus rose (bodily)from the dead...and (b) is a correct answer for (a)
proof#4
sign of jonah ....as i said before it is not the same literal story but a prophecy
that jesus will a rise in the third day from the dead as jonah came out alive...
another statment by jesus:

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

the three days problem is it really a problem?!
...first: jesus did not mean three days (72 hours) but as the jewish tradition ...the part of the day is a full day...let me explain:
from the afternoon to the sunset (friday)...can be one day#1
and from the sunset of friday to the sunset of the staurday ....day#2
and from the sunset of the dawn of the sunday is the third day that he will rise in (in the third day he will rise)
2chron 10:5,2chron 10:12,1sam 30:12,1sam 30:13.......there are examples of the days in jews tradition...


the rebuttales of con:
let me response to him...

you said"

Ressembled to him = Appered so unto them = similitude = likeness of that was shown = they thought they did"

i want an evidence or reference for that?

you asked who is the qurtubi?....http://en.wikipedia.org...
"He was very skilled in commentary, narrative, recitation and law; clearly evident in his writings, and the depth of his scholarship has been recognized by many scholars"



you said "followed by many Christian Sects"....give me on christian said that....

the theory of subtitution is as i said an old theory of gnosticism and doectism as i gave above (an early christian herasy)

you said "I think Pro is unaware of the muslim belief of this incident he has not even cared to read what Muslims belief..
.Muslims and Quran do not deny the incident! According to Muslim Doctrine The person who was made Resemble to Jesus was one who betrayed Jesus for 50 Pieces of Silver Judas,
He was the one who was crucified I can give –Clear Cut Evidence by Jesus’s Mouth- about Judas

first: i read muslim belief a lot and i am an arabic person who lives in islamic society so......
secondly:no one can identify the person that have been crucified instead of jesus...neither muslim scholars!!!
you said judas sold him for 50 pieces of silver ....where is that (50 pieces !!!)?

barnabas bible ....is contradicts with the quran ...as well as there are many fairy tales in it ...

http://www.bible.ca...

http://en.wikipedia.org.........

"His commentary on the Koran (Qur'an) was the most varied and many-sided of all extant works of the kind,
comprising most of the material of importance that had previously appeared. He devoted himself to a wide range of studies, and is said to have expended a large fortune on experiments in
alchemy.
He taught at Ray and
Ghazni, and became head of the university founded by Mohammed ibn Tukush at Herat.[4]"

finally.....the biblical studies (new-old testament)...as well as the historical document shows that jesus was crucified and reserructed in the third day....

you have not refute any of them until now..... and the quranic verses and the commentaries are still going on my side....neither muslim scholars or islam gives us any evidence for the replacement on the cross or why ? and how? its logically collapsed idea
..
until now i think we have more plausible reasons for jesus's crucifixion and reserruction....


and the peace of christ be with all of you!!!!!



Debate Round No. 4
LoopsEye

Con

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

A Very Happy Evening to Everyone .. Reading Pro's Arguments & Rebuttals I fear I may not become a Trichotillomaniac ..
In My first argument I made my case but He has not refuted any of them & have not even toched some of those.

Firstly the Rule that Bible is the source of Material is Ignored Secondly Pro is Valuing Peter & Others more then Jesus Him Self.

Rebuttal#1 to First Argument!

Pro Qouted : John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his "only begotten Son" i think Pro is Unaware of the News that..


& about Son?

David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus:

"
Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee"


Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus:

Exodus 4:22
& thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:


So Firstly you should correct yourself Pro before qouting.

Rebuttal to First Argument!

I shall only say that all these statements are parables can have multiple interpertations & from a third person's mouth but there is not a single unequivocal & unambiguous from Mouth of Jesus that he is going to be ressurected!

also as I said we muslim do not deny the happening of incident but it was happend to one who betrayed Jesus(PBUH) not to Jesus Himself!



As for Historical Evidence if I have Missed to QOUTE about "NAG HAMMADI"

YOU ARE QOUTING FROM OTHER PEOPLE'S MOUTH HERE... HEAR IT FROM
JESUS HIM SELF..

..
READ MORE...



HENCE THIS PROVES HISTORY SAYS FROM MOUTH OF JESUS THAT HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED & THIS GOES JUST AS QURAN SAYS ALHAMULILLAH..

By the way I thought you belive Bible More but I had to give Historical Sources also...




POINTS TO BE NOTED!!

(Other then stories from here & there & twisting & turning Pro has not proved any of my points which are given as following moreover his CLAIM THAT QURAN SAYS JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED IS REFUTED (MORE PROOF COMMING LATER) inshallah I shall "Show where PRO is trying to Trick all the Audience"


Points where PRO is trying to Decive the Audience!

Point A--- If you believe that Jesus(PBUH) was Bodily Arised then this contradicts the following


1. St. Paul: The resurrected bodies are spiritualized. (Ch15, V42 to 44)
2. Jesus (PBUH) :“ Neither shall they die anymore. They are equal unto the Angels”,


Did Jesus & St Paul are Liars? NO!!!!


HENCE PROVES THAT JESUS WAS NOT A LIAR & HE WAS NOT BODILY ARISED BUT SPIRUTALLY


Point B--- Jesus said He will be in the heart of Earth for three Days as He was buried on Friday Evening so if we see following table.

SOLAR EVENT

JEWISH TIME

ALLEGED STATUS

Prior to sunset on Friday

Friday daytime, i.e. Day 1

Dead at Cross

Post sunset on Friday

Saturday night, i.e. Night 1

Dead & in tomb

Post sunrise on Saturday

Saturday daytime, i.e. Day 2

Dead & in tomb

Post sunset on Saturday

Sunday night, i.e. Night 2

Dead & in tomb

Post sunrise on Sunday

Sunday daytime, i.e, Day 3

Arisen & out of tomb


If prophecy was not:

"
THAT JESUS WILL BE ALIVE LIKE JONAH WAS ALIVE"

Then:

Did Jesus Lied? (God Forbid)


HENCE PROVES THAT JESUS WAS NOT A LIAR HE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT TIME BUT ABOUT BEING "ALIVE"

Point C --- History Proves from "The Mouth of Jesus" that He was alive & was laughing inside. (See Above Nag Hamaidi)


"JESUS & ST. PAUL SAID: Resurrected Bodies are Spirtualized or Angelised !!!!"

so..

Point D --- Following Facts support He was a "Physical Body not Spirtual Body" or say "He was Alive!"

* When He was brought down his two mates were alive.. proves Jesus was also "ALIVE!!"

* They broke legs of ever one but Legs of Jesus were not broken.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"

* Wounding sheets were removed & stone was removed.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"

* He was disguised as a Gardner, because He was affraid of Jews.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"

* He says to Mary Mangdalene "Touch Me Not.." Why? He is Injured & It will Hurt Him proves.. Jesus was "ALIVE!!"

* STRONGEST POINT: Jesus Himself said : "I(JESUS) have not ascended unto My Father" or in other words "I (JESUS) am "ALIVE!!"

* Mary Mangdalene came to Anoint Jesus Christ Why? There is no such custom of anoiting dead corpse deceased bodies after 3 days.. means she knew that Jesus is "ALIVE!!"

* Jesus & St Paul said Once we die we are spirtualized or angleized but Jesus was not .. He showed his h&s to his diciples & ate Fish & Honeycomb to Prove He was not died! but "ALIVE!!"

* Sign of Jonah was not Whale, not Time, what else left? BEING "ALIVE!!"


Non of these points My Pro has refuted & they still hold!

IF YOU DO NOT BELIVE THAT RESURRECTED BODIES ARE SPIRTUALIZED YOU DO NOT BELIVE IN JESUS'S SAYING & SAYING OF ST. PAUL!!!

Hence when we belive that Jesus said that Resurrected bodies are Spirutalized & He was not moreover he clearly said that I have not ascended to my father & he was trying to prove he is not spirtualized but is an alive Jesus ...

That Proves that JESUS (P B U H) WAS NOT CRUCIFIED!!





REBUTTALS

Pro Agrees with me that in arabic words have different meanings according to situation infact almost every language have this..

Pro [DECIEVED] by Claimed that it is a mistranslation..!!

Please see the following!
















(4:157:15)
shubbiha
it was made to appear (so)
V – 3rd person masculine singular (form II) passive perfect verb
فعل ماض مبني للمجهول
(4:157:16)
lahum
to them.
P – prefixed preposition lām
PRON – 3rd person masculine plural personal pronoun


Now see the Translation of Word
Shubbiha in the following

PRO TRIED TO DECIVE



Source: Lane's Lexicon - Classic Arabic Dictonary (Non-Muslim)
http://corpus.quran.com...#(4:157:15)


from the above link one can easily underst& that this is NOT AT ALL a wrong tranlation !!
before also I showed Many Different Translator..

Or Pro means to say that All Translators "Christian Translators" "Non Muslim Translators" who are Mastered in Arabic are wrong! Wohh! Great!


You qouted passage of Matthew 28 Pro you are mistaken..

I was talking about John 20! Not Matthew 28!!
& what you qouted it only proves on this side again that when Mary came she could not find Jesus there Why? Because He was Alive & was not there what happened in passage? she came there to meet Jesus & & Angel Removed the stone & showed He is not there?? the point was Why she came?? SHE CAME BECAUSE SHE KNEW THAT JESUS WILL BE ALIVE HE NEEDS TO BE ANOITED FOR HIS WOUNDS & PAIN WHICH HE HAS SUFFERED!!


Your Proof#2:

There is no such saying of Neither JESUS nor of St. Paul that Resurrected Bodies are Physical I mention again It Clearly states that they are Spirtualized ...

Resurrection & Physical can not be at the same time not according to Loopseye! according to Jesus according to St. Paul.

If it is a physical body then it is not a resurrection it is called

IT IS CALLED : RESUSCITATION!

You said Proof#3
This is somewhat Muslim belief that our bodies will be again given to us not a chrisitan belief brother I think you have mistaken if due to reading too much Islamic Litrature ..Let me remind you again JESUS said Your Lord Jesus your St. Paul said they are Angelized!!

DOES ANGELS HAVE BODY? A PHYSICAL BODY? NO!!

You said Proof#4 Jesus will Arise on 3rd Day

HE SAID 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS BROTHER!!!
he was not in tomb already after one day & two nights!! .. & this is still we can maximum suppose!! it can be less but not more then 1 day & 2 nights because after that Mary went there!

LETS SEE ACCORDING TO JEWS TIME WHCIH YOU SAW!!

SOLAR EVENT

JEWISH TIME

ALLEGED STATUS

Afternoon to sunset on Friday

Friday daytime, i.e. 1 DAY

Dead at Cross

Post sunset on Friday

Saturday night, i.e. 1 Night

Dead & in tomb

Dawn on Saturday

Saturday daytime, i.e. 2 Day

Dead & in tomb

Post sunset on Saturday

Sunday night, i.e. night 2

Dead & in tomb

Post sunrise on Sunday

Sunday daytime, i.e, day3

Arisen & out of tomb

TOTAL = 3 DAYS & 2 NIGHTSG

STILL IT IS NOT EQUAL TO 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS


for your rebuttal!! I already gave the link of translations here it is http://www.islamawakened.com...

As far Qurtubi I think this also you didnt read what I said I know about him I was asking his status! He is not greater then Quran or Hadith VERY MUSLIM SCHOLAR SAYS FOLLOW MY TEACHING AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT CONTRADICT WITH QURAN & HADITH & IF THEY CONTRADICT WITH QURAN OR HADITH THROW THEM ON THE WALL & FOLLOW THE QURAN [evey muslim scholar says that!]

The early Basilinians they believed in that, the Carpocrates, all Christians they believed in that that Nazareth’s they believed in that, the Corinthians they believed in that. The Christians many of the sects believed that instead of Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) somebody else was put on the cross.

Conclusion:

This is the Last Round so I would like to conlcude it & over to readers to decide who is RATIONAL who is with EVIDENCE who is LOGICAL who is trying to DECIEVE ..

what ever I qouted it is according to context & whole of it makes sense... moreover I do not have to attack Chrisitans or Bible to Defend Quran Like PRO did Alhamdulillah Quran Speaks of It Self!!

I HAVE MANY THINGS TO SAY BUT MY CHARCTERS ARE FINISHED SO I CAN NOT SPEAK MORE ..

PRO TRIED TO DECIEVE IN ARABIC TRANSLATION HE SAYS ALL THE TRANSLATORS ARE WRONG YOU CAN SEE THE TRANSLATION IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE ALSO PEOPLE ARE NOT FOOL DEAR..

MAY ALLAH ALMIGHTY GUIDE YOU ALL TO RIGHT PATH & MAY THIS DEBATE SERVES ITS PURPOSE THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY HOAX & PROBLEMS WITH BIBLE IT CAN NOT BE A WORD OF GOD & NEITHER IT SAYING ANYTHING Unambiguous
ABOUT JESUS & ABOUT GOD

MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL

PLEASE READ THE PURPOSE OF DEBATE WRITTEN ON TOP
(I ACCEPT DEBATES ON ISLAM)

http://www.equip.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...;
saleh

Pro

the word begotten has been thrown out of the bible!!!!! man.....
first: i gave the verse to show that jesus died and i have focused on (he gave)
secondly : you said "it doesn't exist in the original manuscripts of the bible"
that is a nice joke !!.....ask any texual critic he will told that we do not have the original yet.....
thirdly:you gave us no evidence in any manuscripts
fourthly :let us see just one manuscripts (sinaticus)
http://codexsinaiticus.org...
in column 3 the line 3 from the last line ......its the word...μονογενη
which means in the strong dictionary
G3439
μονογενηL9;ς
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).

the sonship:
in barnes commentary :
The phrase “sons of God” is elsewhere used frequently to denote the saints, the children of God, or men eminent for rank and power (compare Gen_6:2, Gen_6:4; Job_1:6; Hos_1:10; Joh_1:12; Rom_8:14, Rom_8:19; Phi_2:15; 1Jo_3:1);
and once to denote angels Job_38:7; but the appellation “The Son of God” is not appropriated in the Scriptures to anyone but the Messiah.
It does not occur before this in the Old Testament, and it occurs but once after this, Dan_3:25. See the notes at that passage. This makes its use in the case before us the more remarkable, and justifies the reasoning of the author of the epistle
to the Hebrews Heb_1:5 as to its meaning. The true sense, therefore, according to the Hebrew usage, and according to the proper meaning of the term, is, that he sustained a relation to God which could be compared only with that which a son among men sustains to his father;
and that the term, as thus used, fairly implies an equality in nature with God himself. It is such a term as would not be applied to a mere man; it is such as is not applied to the angels Heb_1:5; and therefore it must imply a nature superior to either.

in john 2:19 Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up

about naj hamadi historical document:
first these codexes are gnosticism thoughts which is a herasy in the early christianity and which islam take the story of the crucifixion from!!!
so it is not an evidence against christianity

refutings!:
point A : the problem is you wrote bodies then spiritualized ....do spirits have bodies?!

am i try to decieve people or allah!
Pickthal: And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers!

let us see what the commenterars wrote:
barnes:
It is raised a spiritual body - Not a mere spirit, for then it would not be a body. The word spiritual (πνευματικοL9;ν pneumatikon) here stands opposed to the word natural, or animal. it will not be a body that is subject to the laws of the vital functions
, or organized or sustained in that way. It will still be a “body” (σωS4;μα s!3;ma), but it will have so far the nature of spirit as to be without the vital functions which here control

gill:
there is a spiritual body; such as the body of Christ now is, and as will be the bodies of the risen saints; the phrase is Jewish, הגוף הרוחני, "the spiritual body" (y) and the flesh of the righteous, being בשרם רוחנים, "spiritual flesh" (z), are to be met with in their writings. 

point b :i have answered you on this point previously

the sign of jonah :
let me qoute jesus again:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
so jesus is comparing the time here!!!

and jonah said:
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

well this arguement is the same as zakir naik arguement
......here is the response to him


three days and three nights:
gill:
To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night,
or twenty four hours, and are what the Greeks call νυχθημερα, "night days"; but the Jews have no other way of expressing them, but as here; and with them it is a well known rule, and used on all occasions
, as in the computation of their feasts and times of mourning, in the observance of the passover, circumcision, and divers purifications, that מקצת היום ככולו, "a part of a day is as the whole" (n): and so, whatever was done before sun setting, or after, if but an hour, or ever so small a time, before or after it, it was reckoned as the whole preceding
, or following day; and whether this was in the night part, or day part of the night day, or natural day, it mattered not, it was accounted as the whole night day: by this rule, the case here is easily adjusted; Christ was laid in the grave towards the close of the sixth day, a little before sun setting, and this being a part of the night day preceding
, is reckoned as the whole; he continued there the whole night day following, being the seventh day; and rose again early on the first day, which being after sun setting, though it might be even before sun rising, yet being a part of the night day following, is to be esteemed as the whole; and thus the son of man was to be, and was three days and three nights in the grave
; and which was very easy to be understood by the Jews; and it is a question whether Jonas was longer in the belly of the fish.

con just repeat round by round he has not been answered yet ! ....obviously that is not true

con also repeat what deedat and zakir naik had said for long time ago and they have been answered...not only repeat but copy paste them ......!!!!



jesus said :
Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry. 
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again. 

finally i gave evidence from the bible (new and old testament) as well as historical documents not refuted by con he is just trying cut some of verses out of there passage just like other muslims (deedat,zakir naik,shabir ally)...then he gives explanation from his mind

so the audience have the right to judge
and the peace of christ shall be with all of you......thank you very much loops eye and i will pray for you buddy
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
and that video which you posed those people.. I have seen many of them on YouTube Such disgustingly deceiving people who are paid for this 2 pennies Job! and with such fakeness they do they do not even know hot to represent the case..

I CHALLENGE A 15 Years old Teenager can Refute all these videos!! Childlike plays they do just to get attention from people.

HOW POORLY THEY TRY TO BECOME SCHOLAR BUT FAIL.. EPIC FAIL!
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
"When truth is hurled against falsehood, for falsehood parishes, falsehood is by its nature bound to parish." (Israh 17:81)
or
But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:10)

Im sorry but Pro though you got a nice name May God Leads you to the path of Saleheen Inshallah.. but you have not countered those points dear.. I feel you twisting turning things in explanations and I really felt bad they way you were deceiving about the Quranic Verse. which clearly states "Neither did they Crucify Him!, Nor Did They Kill Him.." STRAIGHTFORWARD AND NOT OPEN TO MORE THEN ONE INTERPRETATION!

I hope you saw that according to Jewish time also its not equal to 3 days & 3 nights and there was a list to refute which is as it is and some of the points are even untouched
Posted by saleh 4 years ago
saleh
and i would thank con (loopseye) for sharing his arguments which i crash them ......:)

please ! do not say thing which i did not say......

but i accept what you are say about comparing !!
the peace of jesus christ be with all of you....
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
I would like to thank Pro for his arguments and for accepting the debate due to characters limit I could not thank him and the readers at the end.. I would like to say something ..

The purpose of this debate is not to win Argument! sadly I saw Pro that he went at extent that he is denying Jesus who Established Christianity and St. Paul Who Gave New Revolutionary Piller of Trinity to a Monotheistic Religion.

YES! YES! Monotheistic Wiki says: A Christian (About this sound pronunciation (help"info)) is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.

I feel very sad when I read History of Christianity I pray that Our Brethren Brothers are Guided by God Almighty and they see the right path. Its not to mock or to hit but as an outsider I see many flaws in Christian Doctrine which is leading Thousands of People to become Atheist.. Why Atheist? Because due to Social Pressure They are not able to Embrace another Religion but they are not able to Digest the Non-Logical Theories Churches & Popes try them to gulp down.. Please I request you all .. Buy Your Copy of Bible Read Research May God Lead you to Truth..

but who can guide those who do not want Truth? who do not seek Right path? Who have no fire to Explore and Quest of Truth? about whom Bible says:
"...seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not , nor do they understand. (Matt 13:13)

Al-Quran, The Holy Book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:

Summun. Bukmun. Umyun. Fahum La Yar Jioon

"Deaf, Dumb & Blind, They will not Return to Path" (Holy Quran 2:18)

Please Wake Up! Read Bible Read Quran Read Religions Compare Analyze Pounder!

"...Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." (Jesus).

May God be with you All!
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
pro can add his argument if he wants or wait for my argument as he wills...
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
pro can add his argument if he wants or wait for my argument as he wills...
Posted by saleh 4 years ago
saleh
no problem sir......:)
Posted by LoopsEye 4 years ago
LoopsEye
I was very very busy PRO! Shall see you soon good day!!
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