In Holy Bible Did Jesus(P.B.U.H) died on Cross?
In the name of God, The Most Gracious & The Most Merciful.
Greetings to All Readers!
the topic Under debate will be "In Holy Bible Did Jesus(P.B.U.H) died on Cross?"
First Round can be of Acceptance & If Pro would like to Take BOP(Burden of Proof) & build his case He can go ahead or else I would defend my case.
then the debate will go on to defy eachothers claim.
I have let lose the Limit of text to express yourself better but please be precise (don't be emotional) use simple English to reach all readers.
1] The Pro should be a wise learned person and rational thinker. [not just an orthodox follower of religion]
2] Evidence can only be a logical statement or Proven Facts.
3] Illustrating Examples is allowed.
4] Be Precise and to the point.
5] Both can Establish Their Own Cases [Please Sensible]
6] Bible would be considered the Primary source of Information
where statement of God > JESUS > apostles > pupils > Church > Scholars.
('>' is sign of greater than)
VOTERS: Please be logical and true while voting I seriously want to establish the fact of the argument being right or wrong. not only to defend a religion or to be emotional ... Do not fall for Love in Christ .. I Love Jesus (P.B.U.H) & Respect Him His Great Teachings and Honor Him Above All Humans.
Moreover You have to state valid reason for Your Honored Vote.
Purpose: Well the purpose of my previous, this and up coming debates is never to hurt any personal or private feelings of anyone I believe the purpose always be to learn and seek knowledge and establish Truth & the right facts for the people out there and to make people understand the difference between Rational & Irrational Thoughts.
Praise to Almighty Lord Who is Greater then All.
i will accept this debate......good luck to you! i will use islamic sources if i need to and translate them from arabic(i am arabic language speaker)....
Mr. Saleh & All Readers Good Day Please Excuse me for this Round .. Today is My Wedding Anniversary .. I would not be able to start debate inspite of i wanted to give it a go.. I would come again to post my argument .. i kept 5 rounds so if anything happens we could skip one of them.. i would like to apologize to Pro and All for inconvince.. Thanks.. I shall be back Soon
The crucifixion and the resurrection according to Christ was not an end of life on earth, nor martyrdom or even just an execution on the cross...but as the new testament said by peter:
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And when he (peter) said to Jewish people :
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain
As well as jesus had confirmed that the redemption was his first priority :
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
And he was calling the time of death (crucifixion) as the hour:
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
First :the prophecies and statements of jesus Christ from the beginning of his ministry about death and crucifixion
(1)when the people said to him to give them a sign- although he made a lot of miracles-he said :
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
(2) Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
(3) when Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews came to jesus at night he said to him :
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(4) Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
(5) Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Secondly :the prophecies of the old testament (b.c) about messiah
(1) the betraying by Judah
Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
The fulfillment in new testament :
Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
(2)that he will be sold for 30 pieces of silver
Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
In the new testament :
Mat 26:15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver
(3)that he will be beaten
Mic 5:1 they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
Fulfillment in the new testament
Mat 26:67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
(4) that he will be crucified
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
In the new testament:
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
(5) that he will be crucified between two thieves
Isa 53:12 and he was numbered with the transgressors
In the new testament:
Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
6) that he will be strike by a spear and not broke any of his bones)
nor break any bone of it Num 9:12
Zec 12:10and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced
In the new testament:
Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
And there are so many prophecies about jesus Christ ……
Thirdly : historical evidence and documents
(1) tacitus roman historian:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".
Annals (written ca. AD 116), book 15, chapter 44
(2) Lucian of Samosata (Born 125 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer:
The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account
Lucian, The Death of Peregrine 11–13, translated by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler in The Works of Lucian of Samosata
(3) pontuis pilatus report:
In the Antiquities of the Jews (written about 93 AD) Jewish historian Josephus, stated (Ant 18.3) that Jesus was crucified by Pilate, writing that:
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, ... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles ... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross ...
Or we can also say was Jesus Really Crucified?
Before I continue to My Argument I would like to give two definition which everyone should be very clear about.
Oxford Dictionary: put (someone) to death by nailing or binding them to a cross. http://tiny.cc...
Cambridge Dictionary: to kill someone by tying or fastening them with nails to a cross & leaving them there to die.http://tiny.cc...
Dictonary.com: to put to death by nailing or binding the hands & feet to a cross. http://tiny.cc...
Oxford Dictionary: the action or fact of resurrecting or being resurrected (rising from death, Act of Jesus Christ to rise fomr death) http://tiny.cc...
Cambridge Dictionary: the act of bringing to life that had died or ended back into existence. http://tiny.cc...
Dictonary.com: the act of rising from the dead. http://tiny.cc...
“In short, For Christ to be resurrected he has to Die, if he does not die He is not resurrected was not crucified.”
According to Jesus (PBUH), he says in the Gospel of Mathew,
That, “A person can obtain salvation by keeping the law & the commandments.” (Ch 19:V16 – 17)
But according to St. Paul, he nails the laws & commandments to the cross, cross, cross, cross, as you He nails the law & commandment to the cross as he says in Colossians,
“& Paul says that salvation can be obtained by believing in the death & resurrection of Jesus (PBUH)”
& he quotes, the New Testament 1st Corinthians
“& if Christ has not risen from the dead our preaching is in vain & your faith is in vain”
That all your good deeds, all your charity, without believing in Christ died for the sin, it is useless. Quoting from Isaiah
“That all our righteousness, all our good deeds are like filthy rags”.
If you don’t believe Jesus Christ (PBUH) died on the cross for the sin of humanity, all your righteousness, all your good deeds are like filthy rags i.e. if there’s no cross, if there’s no crucifixion, there’s no Christianity.
Let’s see what St. Paul has to say regarding resurrection.
St. Paul, he comments on resurrected bodies, Ch. 1st Corinthians Ch. 15
Paul says: “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in in-corruption. It is sown in dishonor it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body it is raised a spiritual body”, “There’s a natural body & there’s a spiritual body”.
According to St. Paul the resurrected bodies are spiritualized. They are spiritualized.
Same said The JESUS (PBUH) His & Our Lord in Gospel of Luke,
“That resurrected bodies they do not marry, neither do they give in marriage”
“ Neither shall they die anymore. They are equal unto the Angels”,
That means they shall be Angelised, resurrected body will be spiritualized. Who says that? Jesus says that in Gospel of Luke .Paul says that in 1st Corinthians.
Please Note: & there’s not a single unequivocal & unambiguous Verse anywhere in the Gospels which says that Jesus (PBUH) was resurrected.
So let me Start the Story of Crucifixion & Resurrection The Dying of Jesus on Cross & Coming Back to Life.
The story in Gospel of Luke Ch. 24,
That after the alleged crucifixion when the disciples, they meet in the upper room,
Jesus (PBUH) comes, & he says to the disciple, “Shalom”
Next Verse says,
“But they were terrified & affrighted & supposed him to be a spirit” (Ch24:V37)
Did Jesus look like a spirit? NO!
Jesus Christ (PBUH) did not look like a spirit, then why did they think that he was a spirit?
The reason is because they had heard from the “hearsay” that their master Jesus (PBUH) was put on the cross. They had learnt from hearsay that he had given up the ghost that he had died. They had learnt from hearsay that he was dead & buried in the grave for three days. Hearsay, hearsay. You know why? Because they (the disciples) were not eye witnesses.
Now, Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) to clarify their doubt, says in next 2 Verses in Gospel of Luke:
“Behold my hands & feet, it is I myself. Handle me & see for a spirit has no flesh & bone”, As you see me I have. He tells them behold my hands & feet, it is I myself, your lord & master Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him), why you’re frightened? Handle me & see, behold my hands & feet for a spirit has no flesh & bones.
What was he trying to prove by showing his hands & feet? He was trying to prove He was not a Spirit That He was alive not resurrected in his flesh & bones, a physical body.
Next Verses, Gospel of Luke, Ch24, V41-42, says,
”They were overjoyed and they wondered.”
i.e. They thought he is dead and now they are happy that their lord and master is alive, physical with flesh and bones in front of them. They are happy. Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) yet to confirm them says that,
“Do you have any meat here?” And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and a honeycomb. And he took it and he ate before them. To prove what? That he was resurrected? To prove that he was a spirit? NO! To prove that he was a physical body. He ate and he chewed in front of them. A piece of broiled fish and honeycomb, to prove that he was not resurrected, he was not a spirit. But he was in flesh and bones, a physical body if no resurrection, no crucifixion, no Christianity.
The story of Mary Magdalene
Gospel of John, Ch2: V1 & Gospel of Mark, that
it was the first day of the week, i.e Sunday, Sabbath day is Saturday for the Jews. So first day of the week is Sunday.
“It was the first day of the week that Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb.” (Ch16:V2)
Now why should Mary Magdalene go to the tomb on third day after Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) supposedly was dead? The reply is given in the Verse earlier,
Gospel of Mark, Ch16 V1 that
But natural, she’s
not going to say, “he’s alive”. Otherwise they will put him to death again.
Seeing certain life in the limp body of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) she comes back on the third day after the Sabbath day to look for “Alive” Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him).
Gospel of John, Ch20, V1, say that
“She finds that the stone has been removed, and even the winding sheets they are unwound and placed in a pile.”
Knowing very well, what is the reason, but yet asking?
She says and supposed him to be a gardener. She asks him,
“Where have you taken him?” and laid him? So that I may take him away”
(Why Him? Do we call dead bodies Him? Or It? Because He was alive and she knew!)
Tell me, why did Mary Magdalene supposed Jesus to be (Peace Be Upon Him) a gardener? Do resurrected bodies look like gardeners? No!
So why should she suppose that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a gardener? because he was disguised as a gardener.
Now, why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener? Jesus Christ was disguised as a gardener (Peace Be Upon Him) because he was afraid of the Jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the Jews, why?
Because according to Hebrew, Ch9, V27,
“A man dies only once. And after that is the Day of Judgment.”
Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) said in the Gospel of Luke, Ch20, V36,
“Neither shall you die anymore”.
it continues in V17,
“I have not yet ascended unto my father” meaning what? That he has not yet been dead. Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) unequivocally says that he has not yet been resurrected, proving that he was alive.
I WOULD FURTHER LIKE TO GIVE A SHORT NOTE ABOUT .. SIGN OF JONAH...
Point number One. he was not resurrected, because he was alive. If he’s alive, no crucifixion, no resurrection.He was put on the cross and bought down very fast. In three hours. In three hours it’s difficult for a person to die. Therefore Jesus was alive.
Point number two. When he’s bought down, even his two cross mates they are alive. Proving that even Jesus was alive.
Point number three his legs were not broken. What use is a broken leg to a dead man? Proving that he was alive.
Point number four: That the stone was removed and the winding sheets were unwound, proving that Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) was alive.
Point number five: That he was disguised as a gardener. Why? Because he was alive trying to be saved from the Jews.
Point number six: That when Mary Magdalene goes to touch Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) he says touch me not. Why? He was a physical body. He was alive. It will hurt him, he was in pain. Proving that he was alive.
Point number Seven: Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) says that I have not yet ascended unto my father. That means he was alive.
Point number Eight: Mary Magdalene WAS not afraid recognizing Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him).
Point number Nine: That in the upper room he shows his hands and feet to prove that he was not a spirit but he was alive.
Point number Ten: That they were overjoyed to see him. Why? Because they thought he’s dead and the spirit form. They were overjoyed to see because he was alive.
Point number eleven: He ate a piece of broiled fish and honey comb to prove that he was alive.
Point number twelve: The disciples had heard from Mary Magdalene that he was alive.
Point number thirteen: The Sign of Jonah. As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth alive, alive, alive; if he’s alive, no crucifixion, no resurrection.
So in short, Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) was put on the cross according to the Bible, but he did not die.
the peace of jesus be with all of you!
let me begin that con did not respond and he will not be able to respond on what i have represented from the bible (new testament -old testament) that shows clearly that jesus was crucified on cross .....and the historical document and evidences that confirms jesus's crucifixion .....
first :the quran and crucifixion of jesus
con first evidence is the verse from quran (ch4 v157) and its the only verse in the whole quran the about jesus crucifixion .....but is it really that jesus was mad to resemble him with another person or the translation is wrong??
the translation above is sahih international ....but if we look to other translations we will find :
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them
.....and this the literal translation of the words (شبه لهم)
so it is not meant in the quran that jesus was been replaced with another man but it was appear to the people who were seeing the event......
secondly:the fairy tale about jesus and raising him to god in the commentaries of the quran
the qurtubi (muslim scholar) he said
(وأما المسيح فكساه الله الريش وألبسه النور وقطع عنه لذة المطعم والمشرب فطار مع الملائكة)
القرطبي –الجامع لاحكام القران-ال عمران55
) ورفع الله تعالى عيسى من روزنة كانت في البيت إلى السماء ) القرطبي –الجامع لاحكام القران-ال عمران 55
The translation is (and god raised jesus from a small window
“In short, For Christ to be resurrected he has to Die, if he does not die He is not resurrected was not crucified.”
That, “A person can obtain salvation by keeping the law & the commandments.” (Ch 19:V16 – 17)
(GNT-TR) ο δε ειπεν αυτω τι με λεγεις αγαθον ουδεις αγαθος ει μη εις ο θεος ει δε θελεις εισελθειν εις την ζωην τηρησον τας εντολας
there is no word "salvation "in greek ....
There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.ch19:71
According to St. Paul the resurrected bodies are spiritualized. They are spiritualized."
Please Note: & there’s not a single unequivocal & unambiguous Verse anywhere in the Gospels which says that Jesus (PBUH) was resurrected."
“But they were terrified & affrighted & supposed him to be a spirit” (Ch24:V37)"
Seeing certain life in the limp body of Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) she comes back on the third day after the Sabbath day to look for “Alive” Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him)."
Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
“Where have you taken him?” and laid him? So that I may take him away”
(Why Him? Do we call dead bodies Him? Or It? Because He was alive and she knew!)...
Good Day to all May Peace and Mercy be Upon the Seeker of Truth.
MY QUESTIONS WENT UNANSWERED
Before continuing to my Rebuttals I would like to mention some things.
I WOULD LIKE TO ASK PRO, WHAT IS MORE AUTHENTIC TO HIM?
HOLY BIBLE? OR UNHOLY HISTORY?
For an instance (just for a moment) if we believe Jesus(P B U H) was crucified then that means bible contradicts at several Place..
So My Questions went unanswered I would Like to Quote from My Previous argument and ask Pro what does it means please give me a reasonable answer (though I have not reported it out of context).
[It only sounds logical if she already knew that He will be alive there and she went to look after him and massage him and said please tell me where is He and where you laid Him so that I take Him away.] How she knew? Because she was there while they brought him down from cross and gave the burial bath.
Alive!, Alive!, Alive!.
What was the Jesus’s Prophecy? Read Matthew 12:39-40
THIS IS ONE NIGHT AND ONE FULL DAY NO ONE WILL DOUBT! WHICH IS AGAIN A CHALLNEGE TO CHRISTIANS THAT DID JESUS (GOD FORBID) LIED? IF THAT HE WILL BE THERE FOR 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS.
Hence Time was not the Prophecy so there is no other reason left to associate the sign to be given will be Sign of Jonah! i.e. Jesus will be Alive.
This is Proof#5 that JESUS P.B.U.H was Alive!
I would ask Con Please answer these? “In Simple Plain Language”
QURAN & CURCIFICTION OF JESUS!
Before starting My Debate I believe I did not made any mistake to present the Islamic View Point of Jesus’s Crucifiction!
Still Con has Misquoted so let me rebut it!
He says: that it’s a mistranslation lets see..
Ch 4: V:157
Sahi Intl.: [another] was made to resemble him to them.
(Sahi Intl. Translation is the Translation which explains the context i.e. its Translaiton+Commentary for easy understanding the context of Verse BUT! MEANING DOES NOT CHANGES!)
Pikthal: but it appeared so unto them
Mosin Khan: but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)
LETS SEE WHAT NON-MUSLIM TRANSLATORS TRANSLATE IT!
Edward Henry Palmer: but a similitude was made for them
N J Dawood (draft): but they thought they did
Arthur John Arberry: only a likeness of that was shown to them.
Ressembled to him = Appered so unto them = similitude = likeness of that was shown = they thought they did
From above we see that all the Translators are trying to say in their own words that “He was not crucified but an illusion or misapprehension or hallucination was shown to them but they slay him not nor did they killed him” I have given Link to all the Quranic Translations which Clearly Mention that JESUS was neither Killed Nor Crucified According to Islam. http://tiny.cc...
Pro has mentioned about some.. “Qurtubi”
Who is Qurtubi? I think He is Unaware of Islam.. there are a million scholars out there some may be right other may be wrong.
BUT! ALL MUSLIM SCHOLARS INCLUDING 4 MOST HONORABLE SCHOLARS OF ISLAM (SHAFI, HAMBALI, HANAFI SAID) “ If I say something, then compare it to the Book of Allah and the Sunnah(PRACTICE) of His messenger and if it agrees to them, then accept it and that which goes against them, then reject it and throw my saying against the wall” – This is a saying of ash-Shafi’ee-rahimaullah. See Al-Majmoo’ of an-Nawawee (1/63).
Now tell me who is Qurtubi? I think I do not have to say more about what Qurtubi said..
What Quran says about the Crucifiction has also been followed by many Christian Sects. Which was Known as “ THEORY OF SUBSTITUTION ” !! including the sects..
Pro said: let's suppose the there is someone who crucified instead of jesus ...where is the justice of god???
Answer: I think Pro is unaware of the muslim belief of this incident he has not even cared to read what Muslims belief...Muslims and Quran do not deny the incident! According to Muslim Doctrine The person who was made Resemble to Jesus was one who betrayed Jesus for 50 Pieces of Silver Judas, He was the one who was crucified I can give –Clear Cut Evidence by Jesus’s Mouth- about Judas
I have too much to say but due to Limitation I cannot speak...
What Muslims believe about Jesus also resembles many Historical Evidences.. e.g.
I was expecting you to Quote this Verse “He is risen from dead” I said “unequivocal & unambiguous verse” see meaning of these two words brother.
Still Here is the Context of Mathew 27 V64:
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
“HE THOUGHT PEOPLE MAY SAY THAT HE IS RISEN FROM DEATH ITS NO REALITY BROTHER”
Similarities Between Jesus & Jonah! What prophecies can be? Pro has not at all commented on it only just denied it
THE ONLY FACTOR LEFT IS OF BEING DEAD OR ALIVE… AS JONAH WAS ALIVE JESUS HAS TO BE ALIVE!!
PRO’S CONCLUSIONS ARE HIS SELF ASSUMED THOUGHTS WITHOUT ANY PROOF AND LOGIC AND AS FAR AS HIS CLAIMS WERE CONCEREND I HAVE CLEARED THEM IN VERY DETIAL I CAN TELL MORE IF ANYONE WANTS TO ASK JUST COMMENT PLEASE!
Nearly all my points are still unanswered Pro have not cleared even a single but made a false claim that Quran says Jesus was crucified which is exactly opposite of the meaning of the verse and can all translations including non muslims be wrong????
THINK! GOD BLESS YOU..
“When truth is hurled against falsehood, for falsehood parishes, falsehood is by its nature bound to parish.”
(Quran 17: v81)
the peace of jesus christ be with all of you.....
first: con has given us that some words arabic language have different meaning....well that is right but not in the verse above.....you see there is big difference between شبه لهم and شبه به....
the first word is (appeared unto them ) ....but the second is ( another was made to resemble him).....but in the quran the first word exist....
let us give the chance to the audience to decide...!
"I WOULD LIKE TO ASK PRO, WHAT IS MORE AUTHENTIC TO HIM?
HOLY BIBLE? OR UNHOLY HISTORY?"
"For an instance (just for a moment) if we believe Jesus(P B U H) was crucified then that means bible contradicts at several Place.."
[It only sounds logical if she already knew that He will be alive there and she went to look after him and massage him and said please tell me where is He and where you laid Him so that I take Him away.] How she knew? Because she was there while they brought him down from cross and gave the burial bath."
not it is not .....let us see the passages again
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
"Touch me not ... - This passage has given rise to a variety of interpretations. Jesus required Thomas to touch him Joh_20:27, and it has been difficult to ascertain why he forbade this now to Mary.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Ressembled to him = Appered so unto them = similitude = likeness of that was shown = they thought they did"
you asked who is the qurtubi?....http://en.wikipedia.org...
In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
A Very Happy Evening to Everyone .. Reading Pro's Arguments & Rebuttals I fear I may not become a Trichotillomaniac ..
In My first argument I made my case but He has not refuted any of them & have not even toched some of those.
Firstly the Rule that Bible is the source of Material is Ignored Secondly Pro is Valuing Peter & Others more then Jesus Him Self.
Rebuttal#1 to First Argument!
Pro Qouted : John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his "only begotten Son" i think Pro is Unaware of the News that..
& about Son?
David was a begotten son of God long before Jesus:
"Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee"
Israel was a begotten son of God long before Jesus:
Exodus 4:22 & thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:
So Firstly you should correct yourself Pro before qouting.
Rebuttal to First Argument!
I shall only say that all these statements are parables can have multiple interpertations & from a third person's mouth but there is not a single unequivocal & unambiguous from Mouth of Jesus that he is going to be ressurected!
also as I said we muslim do not deny the happening of incident but it was happend to one who betrayed Jesus(PBUH) not to Jesus Himself!
As for Historical Evidence if I have Missed to QOUTE about "NAG HAMMADI"
YOU ARE QOUTING FROM OTHER PEOPLE'S MOUTH HERE... HEAR IT FROM
JESUS HIM SELF..
HENCE THIS PROVES HISTORY SAYS FROM MOUTH OF JESUS THAT HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED & THIS GOES JUST AS QURAN SAYS ALHAMULILLAH..
By the way I thought you belive Bible More but I had to give Historical Sources also...
POINTS TO BE NOTED!!
(Other then stories from here & there & twisting & turning Pro has not proved any of my points which are given as following moreover his CLAIM THAT QURAN SAYS JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED IS REFUTED (MORE PROOF COMMING LATER) inshallah I shall "Show where PRO is trying to Trick all the Audience"
Point D --- Following Facts support He was a "Physical Body not Spirtual Body" or say "He was Alive!"
* When He was brought down his two mates were alive.. proves Jesus was also "ALIVE!!"
* They broke legs of ever one but Legs of Jesus were not broken.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"
* Wounding sheets were removed & stone was removed.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"
* He was disguised as a Gardner, because He was affraid of Jews.. proves Jesus was "ALIVE!!"
* He says to Mary Mangdalene "Touch Me Not.." Why? He is Injured & It will Hurt Him proves.. Jesus was "ALIVE!!"
* STRONGEST POINT: Jesus Himself said : "I(JESUS) have not ascended unto My Father" or in other words "I (JESUS) am "ALIVE!!"
* Mary Mangdalene came to Anoint Jesus Christ Why? There is no such custom of anoiting dead corpse deceased bodies after 3 days.. means she knew that Jesus is "ALIVE!!"
* Jesus & St Paul said Once we die we are spirtualized or angleized but Jesus was not .. He showed his h&s to his diciples & ate Fish & Honeycomb to Prove He was not died! but "ALIVE!!"
* Sign of Jonah was not Whale, not Time, what else left? BEING "ALIVE!!"
Non of these points My Pro has refuted & they still hold!
IF YOU DO NOT BELIVE THAT RESURRECTED BODIES ARE SPIRTUALIZED YOU DO NOT BELIVE IN JESUS'S SAYING & SAYING OF ST. PAUL!!!
Hence when we belive that Jesus said that Resurrected bodies are Spirutalized & He was not moreover he clearly said that I have not ascended to my father & he was trying to prove he is not spirtualized but is an alive Jesus ...
That Proves that JESUS (P B U H) WAS NOT CRUCIFIED!!
Pro Agrees with me that in arabic words have different meanings according to situation infact almost every language have this..
Pro [DECIEVED] by Claimed that it is a mistranslation..!!
Please see the following!
Now see the Translation of Word Shubbiha in the following
PRO TRIED TO DECIVE
Source: Lane's Lexicon - Classic Arabic Dictonary (Non-Muslim)http://corpus.quran.com...#(4:157:15)
from the above link one can easily underst& that this is NOT AT ALL a wrong tranlation !!
before also I showed Many Different Translator..
Or Pro means to say that All Translators "Christian Translators" "Non Muslim Translators" who are Mastered in Arabic are wrong! Wohh! Great!
You qouted passage of Matthew 28 Pro you are mistaken..
I was talking about John 20! Not Matthew 28!!
& what you qouted it only proves on this side again that when Mary came she could not find Jesus there Why? Because He was Alive & was not there what happened in passage? she came there to meet Jesus & & Angel Removed the stone & showed He is not there?? the point was Why she came?? SHE CAME BECAUSE SHE KNEW THAT JESUS WILL BE ALIVE HE NEEDS TO BE ANOITED FOR HIS WOUNDS & PAIN WHICH HE HAS SUFFERED!!
There is no such saying of Neither JESUS nor of St. Paul that Resurrected Bodies are Physical I mention again It Clearly states that they are Spirtualized ...
Resurrection & Physical can not be at the same time not according to Loopseye! according to Jesus according to St. Paul.
If it is a physical body then it is not a resurrection it is called
IT IS CALLED : RESUSCITATION!
You said Proof#3
This is somewhat Muslim belief that our bodies will be again given to us not a chrisitan belief brother I think you have mistaken if due to reading too much Islamic Litrature ..Let me remind you again JESUS said Your Lord Jesus your St. Paul said they are Angelized!!
DOES ANGELS HAVE BODY? A PHYSICAL BODY? NO!!
You said Proof#4 Jesus will Arise on 3rd Day
HE SAID 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS BROTHER!!!
he was not in tomb already after one day & two nights!! .. & this is still we can maximum suppose!! it can be less but not more then 1 day & 2 nights because after that Mary went there!
LETS SEE ACCORDING TO JEWS TIME WHCIH YOU SAW!!
STILL IT IS NOT EQUAL TO 3 DAYS & 3 NIGHTS
for your rebuttal!! I already gave the link of translations here it is http://www.islamawakened.com...
As far Qurtubi I think this also you didnt read what I said I know about him I was asking his status! He is not greater then Quran or Hadith VERY MUSLIM SCHOLAR SAYS FOLLOW MY TEACHING AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT CONTRADICT WITH QURAN & HADITH & IF THEY CONTRADICT WITH QURAN OR HADITH THROW THEM ON THE WALL & FOLLOW THE QURAN [evey muslim scholar says that!]
The early Basilinians they believed in that, the Carpocrates, all Christians they believed in that that Nazareth’s they believed in that, the Corinthians they believed in that. The Christians many of the sects believed that instead of Jesus Christ (Peace Be Upon Him) somebody else was put on the cross.
This is the Last Round so I would like to conlcude it & over to readers to decide who is RATIONAL who is with EVIDENCE who is LOGICAL who is trying to DECIEVE ..
what ever I qouted it is according to context & whole of it makes sense... moreover I do not have to attack Chrisitans or Bible to Defend Quran Like PRO did Alhamdulillah Quran Speaks of It Self!!
I HAVE MANY THINGS TO SAY BUT MY CHARCTERS ARE FINISHED SO I CAN NOT SPEAK MORE ..
PRO TRIED TO DECIEVE IN ARABIC TRANSLATION HE SAYS ALL THE TRANSLATORS ARE WRONG YOU CAN SEE THE TRANSLATION IN YOUR NATIVE LANGUAGE ALSO PEOPLE ARE NOT FOOL DEAR..
MAY ALLAH ALMIGHTY GUIDE YOU ALL TO RIGHT PATH & MAY THIS DEBATE SERVES ITS PURPOSE THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY HOAX & PROBLEMS WITH BIBLE IT CAN NOT BE A WORD OF GOD & NEITHER IT SAYING ANYTHING Unambiguous
ABOUT JESUS & ABOUT GOD
MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL
PLEASE READ THE PURPOSE OF DEBATE WRITTEN ON TOP
(I ACCEPT DEBATES ON ISLAM)
the word begotten has been thrown out of the bible!!!!! man.....
first: i gave the verse to show that jesus died and i have focused on (he gave)
secondly : you said "it doesn't exist in the original manuscripts of the bible"
that is a nice joke !!.....ask any texual critic he will told that we do not have the original yet.....
thirdly:you gave us no evidence in any manuscripts
fourthly :let us see just one manuscripts (sinaticus)
in column 3 the line 3 from the last line ......its the word...μονογενη
which means in the strong dictionary
there is a spiritual body; such as the body of Christ now is, and as will be the bodies of the risen saints; the phrase is Jewish, הגוף הרוחני, "the spiritual body" (y) and the flesh of the righteous, being בשרם רוחנים, "spiritual flesh" (z), are to be met with in their writings.
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
To solve this difficulty, and set the matter in a clear light, let it be observed, that the three days and three nights, mean three natural days, consisting of day and night,
Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.