The Instigator
mongeese
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points
The Contender
Korashk
Con (against)
Losing
12 Points

In "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess"...

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/19/2010 Category: Entertainment
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,884 times Debate No: 12370
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (7)

 

mongeese

Pro

Full resolution: In "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess," the Sacred Grove, Temple of Time, and all other things necessary for both the Master Sword quest and the Temple of Time quest would be better located in the Ordona Province, instead of the Faron Province.

Everything should be definable here: http://zelda.wikia.com...

Contention 1+: The Temples
If one looks at a map of Hyrule in Twilight Princess, every province has its own temple, with two exceptions: the Faron Province has two temples (Forest Temple, Temple of Time), while the Ordona Province has none. Things would seem much more balanced if every province had its own temple; the map would also seem more balanced and visually appealing.

Contention 2+: The Swords
The first sword that Link obtains, the Wooden Sword, comes from the Ordona Province.
The second sword that Link obtains, the Ordon Sword, comes from the Ordona Province.
Wouldn't it make sense, then, for the third sword that Link obtains, the Master Sword, to come from the Ordona Province, and not the Faron Province?

With that, I'll leave my opponent to counter my contentions, and come up with his or her own.
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for starting this debate. Since my opponent's argumets can be summed up by simply saying that the game developers should have put more stuff in the Ordona Province I will present a singular argument as to why these things shouldn't be located in said province.

It should also be noted that this debate has a high probability of containing spoilers. Read at your own risk.

Contention 1:
Ordona is not a part of Hyrule [1]

This is an important distinction to make because all of the Temples/Dungeons in Twilight Princess (TP) reward you with an item or other reward that involves doing something within the confines of Hyrule. These items include the three Fused Shadows and the three Twilight Mirror Shards.

As a reader you may be thinking, "Those things have to do with the Twilight World, not Hyrule. Why is he mentioning them?" I mention them because Twilight never covers Ordon province. It covered the rest of the world, why wouodn't it cover Ordon? This suggests that Ordon is in fact not a part of Hyrule. There are also other in-game occurrences that suggest that Ordon is not part of Hyrule:

* The NPC named Shad said the following: "Oh, no, I don't believe he's from Hyrule proper at all. No, my understanding is that he's from the small neighboring province of Ordona." Why would he say this if Ordon was a part of Hyrule?
* Another NPC named Coro refers to Link as an Ordonian instead of Hyrulian: "Whoa! An Ordonian! Hey, guy!" Further suggesting that they are separate.
* And the most significant piece of evidence comes from an NPC in the Ordon Province itself, a man named Rusl: "I was supposed to deliver something to the royal family of Hyrule the day after tomorrow... Yes, it was a task set to me by the mayor, but...would you go in my stead? You have...never been to Hyrule, right?" If Ordon Province was in Hyrule then why would Rusl ask if Link had ever been to Hyrule before?

All of this evidence suggests that Ordon is not a part of Hyrule. I can now move on to addressing my opponent's points.

///Contention 1+: The Temples///

Since Ordon is not a part of Hyrule then it does make sense that there are not any temples in Ordon Province. It sshouod bennoted that the many temples were created by the Sages, who play pivotal roles in the Hyrulian mythos. Why would there be one in an area outside of Hyrule?

///Contention 2+: The Swords///

This contention is a bit rediculous to me. My opponent is obviously a fan of the Zelda game franchise so he should know that the Master Sword is a magical Hyrulian artifact. It also has close toes to the Sages. The wooden and Ordon swords are just swords. There is nothing special about them. It does not make any sense at all that the game developers would make you accuire the Master Sword in an area that isn't Hyrule.

I await my opponent't response and apologize for my late one.

[1] http://www.zeldawiki.org...
[2] http://www.zeldawiki.org...
Debate Round No. 1
mongeese

Pro

I would like to thank my opponent. And yes, I agree, there are a few spoilers in this debate.

Contention 1-: Ordona is not a part of Hyrule

I will agree that Ordona is not always considered a part of Hyrule, but that is merely because it was recently annexed into Hyrule [1]. If it wasn't a part of Hyrule, it wouldn't exactly be a province, now, would it?

To directly counter my opponent's points:

Twilight never successfully covers the Ordona Province, but an attempt was made to do so. It was stopped by Link, who attacked the Shadow Beast that led the charge. That is why there is a portal above Ordon Spring, after all. It should be noted that the City in the Sky, the Desert Province, and the Peak Province weren't covered by twilight, either, and yet these three areas contain three of the four shards of the Mirror of Twilight. Wouldn't it make sense, then, for the final shard to be located in the only other area not fully taken by twilight, the Ordona Province?

"Hyrule proper" refers to the original area of Hyrule before the Ordona Province was annexed.

In Coro's case, he quite likely hasn't ever seen anybody from anywhere beyond Hyrule, so for him to say, "Woah, a Hylian!" would seem as redundant as saying, "Woah, a person!"

Rusl also refers to Hyrule proper as Hyrule. He was possibly growing up during the annexation, allowing him to make a distinction.

Finally, the in-game map of Hyrule includes the Ordona Province, which is blatant evidence that the Ordona Province is part of Hyrule.

Contention 1+: The Temples

My opponent questions the existence of a temple in an area outside of Hyrule. However, one temple, the City in the Sky, is far above the Sages, and yet it also houses a shard. The Eldin Province and the Layanru Province, two main provinces of Hyrule, house no mirror shards; why have Faron Province as an exception.

My opponent makes no argument against the visual appeal of having a single temple in every province.

Contention 2+: The Swords

Yes, the Master Sword is a magical Hyrulian artifact an all. However, we know that the Ordona Province is a part of Hyrule. Plus, if the Sages truly wanted to hide the Master Sword so that only the Hero would find it, it would make sense to hide it in an area outside of Hyrule proper. It would also make sense to put it in the same province as the Hero himself.

Conclusion:

My opponent's sole contention, as well as his rebuttals to my own contentions, rely on the false premise that the Ordona Province is not a part of Hyrule. I have shown this premise to be false; my opponent now has nothing to go on.

Good luck, Korashk, with your response.

[1] http://zelda.wikia.com...
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for his response and suggest that he wait until the video is mentioned in my response to watch it.

~~~~~~
Defense
~~~~~~

///I will agree that Ordona is not always considered a part of Hyrule, but that is merely because it was recently annexed into Hyrule [1].///

I looked at my opponent's source and find it lacking. It does not use any external sources to substantiate the claim that Ordon is a recently annexed part of Hyrule. Whereas I have provided evidence from the actual game to suggest that Ordon and Hyrule are separate. Just because Ordon is a province does not mean that it is a province of Hyrule.
~

///Twilight never successfully covers the Ordona Province, but an attempt was made to do so.///

I'll concede the point about Twilight because it isn't really all that important of a supporting detail.
~

///In Coro's case, he quite likely hasn't ever seen anybody from anywhere beyond Hyrule, so for him to say, "Woah, a Hylian!" would seem as redundant as saying, "Woah, a person!"///

This does nothing to negate my point. Coro called Link an Ordonian, not a person or Hyrulian.
~

///Rusl also refers to Hyrule proper as Hyrule. He was possibly growing up during the annexation, allowing him to make a distinction.///

This is speculation and does nothing to counter my presented evidence.
~

///Finally, the in-game map of Hyrule includes the Ordona Province, which is blatant evidence that the Ordona Province is part of Hyrule.///

No it isn't. Here is a map of the USA [1]. It includes Canada and Mexico. Are Canada and Mexico parts of the USA?
~

///My opponent questions the existence of a temple in an area outside of Hyrule. However, one temple, the City in the Sky, is far above the Sages, and yet it also houses a shard.///

While the City in the Sky also may not be a part of Hyrule there is reason for a temple to exist there. Take this quote by Shad [2]: "But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians. When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens. They dwelt there...and some scholars believe that this race lives there still, somewhere in the great sky." This means that while the city may not be a part of Hyrule it played a very large part in Hyrule's formation and exists in Hyrule's history, making the existence of a temple there not unreasonable.

Ordon has no such mythology or historical evidence surrounding it.
~

///My opponent makes no argument against the visual appeal of having a single temple in every province.///

Visual appeal is subjective. Therefore, it is unreasonable to expect me to convince you that the current setup is visually appealing if in fact you don't think that it is.
~

///Yes, the Master Sword is a magical Hyrulian artifact an all. However, we know that the Ordona Province is a part of Hyrule. Plus, if the Sages truly wanted to hide the Master Sword so that only the Hero would find it, it would make sense to hide it in an area outside of Hyrule proper. It would also make sense to put it in the same province as the Hero himself.///

There is actually little need to hide the Master Sword as it can only be wielded by someone worthy of the title [3]: "Hero," and was embedded in a pedestal shortly after it's creation. I can also find no information that suggests that the Sages are able to see into the future. Negating the contention that it would make sense for them to hide the sword in Ordon province to make it easier for this incarnation of the Hero of Time to find.

In response to all the sentences that contain a phrase related to things making sense [4].
~

With that I conclude my response and await my opponent's.

[1] http://www.michellehenry.fr...
[2] http://zelda.wikia.com...
[3] http://zelda.wikia.com...
[4] Video, which I think I will continue to use in debates.
Debate Round No. 2
mongeese

Pro

I would like to thank Korashk for continuing this debate.

Contention 1-: Ordona is not a part of Hyrule

True, my source has no external sources. We shall have to use other evidence instead.

My opponent claims that Ordona Province might not be a province of Hyrule. However, the very definition of a province [1] requires that the Ordona Province be a subdivision of a larger political entity, like Hyrule. My opponent may claim that Ordona Province is a province of another political entity, like Termina. However, this brings up two questions:
1. How can another country have the Ordona Province when the land of Hyrule (including Ordona) is sealed off from the outside world by a huge mountain range [1]?
2. Why does nobody ever mention the country that Ordona is a part of?

My opponent continues to claim that Coro's calling Link an Ordonian means something, although I have shown why it wouldn't make sense to call Link a Hylian regardless of whether or not Ordona is a part of Hyrule, which essentially makes his point worthless. It's like calling an American from Texas a Texan.

As for Rusl, I again hold that my speculation is rather likely. My opponent does nothing to discredit my speculation. Combined with all of the other evidence that I have presented, my speculation seems almost confirmed.

As for my opponent's map of the USA, notice how much more detail goes into the United States than to Mexico and Canada. In the USA, you see both state names and city names, while Canada and Mexico are colored brown, and not even the same shade of brown as Arizona, making a clear distinction. Meanwhile, the map of Hyrule [2] makes absolutely no distinction between Ordona and the rest of Hyrule.

My opponent claims that the City in the Sky is important to Hyrule. This is true. However, how is the Snowpeak Ruins [3], another temple that houses a mirror shard, important to Hyrule or the Sages? It isn't. Zant was trying to hide the mirror shards, so it's not like he's going to care too much about the location's importance.

My opponent claims that the Ordona Province has no mythology or history to justify housing a mirror shard. However, nor does the Faron Province. If the Temple of Time were placed in the Ordona Province, then there would be enough history right there.

My opponent thinks that visual appeal is subjective. This is true, but for the vast majority of people, it would look better to have a temple in every province (note that the provinces are clearly distinguished from each other in the game) than to have one province with two temples right next to each other and another province with no temples at all.

My opponent claims that the Master Sword need not be hidden, and yet it is hidden in the Sacred Grove. Although it can only be wielded by a hero, it can be stolen by anybody else.
Although there is no evidence that the Sages can see into the future, there is no evidence that the Sages are the ones who left the Master Sword in the Pedestal of Time; that was the Hero of Time (the Link from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time). Fate, however, seems to play a part in Zelda games (Link preparing to leave right before a Twilight invasion, Link meeting Midna, Link finding a cannon in the middle of nowhere that perfectly aligns with the City in the Sky, etc.), so it would seem fateful for the Master Sword to be in the same location as the Hero himself.

I would finally like to point out that the gameplay of the game never contradicts the notion that the Ordona Province is a part of Hyrule, and therefore, Nintendo can treat the Ordona Province as if it were part of Hyrule, and hardly anybody would disagree with them.

To conclude, I will present a summary.

PRO:
Every Province of Hyrule would have a temple, creating a sense of balance to oppose the current lopsidedness of a province with two temples directly north of a province with none.
Every province that was invaded by twilight successfully would house a Fused Shadow, while every province that wasn't would house a shard of the Mirror of Twilight.
Every sword would be present in the Ordona Province.

CON:
The Ordona Province perhaps maybe might not be a province of Hyrule, but instead a province of an unmentioned country miles away with no communication with Ordona whatsoever, therefore making the presence of a mirror shard in the Ordona Province potentially seem kind of odd to those players who spend ten minutes thinking about the politics of Hyrule.

The pros outweigh the cons. Vote PRO!

Thank you, again, Korashk, for debating this with me, and to the voters for reading this debate.

1. http://east.merriam-webster.com...
2. http://zelda.wikia.com...(Twilight_Princess).png
3. http://zelda.wikia.com...
Korashk

Con

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I thank my opponent for his response.

~~~~~~~
Rebuttals
~~~~~~~

///1. How can another country have the Ordona Province when the land of Hyrule (including Ordona) is sealed off from the outside world by a huge mountain range [1]?///

Explorers from that country travelled across the mountains and claimed the land in the name of their country. Using citizens to settle the land and make it livable.
~

///2. Why does nobody ever mention the country that Ordona is a part of?///

I have no clue, but if I had to guess I'd say that nobody mentioned it because it isn't important.
~

///...It's like calling an American from Texas a Texan.///

The example you used would actually be comparable to saying: "Hey look, a black person." Hylians are a race of people predominant in the region of Hyrule. Coro referring to Link like that sounds a bit racist and means nothing because one can be Hylian and not be from Hyrule [1].
~

///As for Rusl, I again hold that my speculation is rather likely. My opponent does nothing to discredit my speculation.///

Speculating - to take to be true on the basis of insufficient evidence [2]. I think that's all that needs to be said about my opponent's speculation.
~

///As for my opponent's map of the USA, notice how much more detail goes into the United States than to Mexico and Canada...///

I can logically explain why the map goes into detail with Ordona. In the game there is a need for you to travel through Ordona; giving you a more detailed map of the place simply makes sense.
~

///However, how is the Snowpeak Ruins [3], another temple that houses a mirror shard, important to Hyrule or the Sages?///

The Snowpeak Ruins isn't a temple. It's the yetis' house. It just so happens that a mirror shard was hidden there. There are various temples in TP, but the Snowpeak Ruins is not one of those. For instance, the Temple of Time is a temple, the Forest Temple is a temple, Arbiter's Grounds is a temple. Snowpeak Ruins is a mansion that is home to a couple of yetis and is not the only non-temple dungeon in the game.
~

///If the Temple of Time were placed in the Ordona Province, then there would be enough history right there.///

The Temple of Time could not have rightly been placed in Ordona Province by your own admission. It has existed as a part of Hyrule in previous games and therefore is another integral part of Hyrule's history. Earlier you claimed: "I will agree that Ordona is not always considered a part of Hyrule, but that is merely because it was recently annexed into Hyrule." Even if the voters agree with your arguments that Ordon is a part of Hyrule the Temple of Time could not be placed there because it was built by the Sages and TP takes place 100 years after Ocarina of Time [3]. For Ordon province to be home to the Temple of Time it would have already existed in previous Zelda games and we wouldn't be having this specific dispute. Therefore my opponent's contention about the swords is utterly defeated because again, by his own admission: "...there is no evidence that the Sages are the ones who left the Master Sword in the Pedestal of Time; that was the Hero of Time."
~

With that the debate comes to a conclusion. I have negated the resolution in more ways than one, I'll leave my opponent's strawman summary of my case un-addressed because I'm sure that the voters realize that's what the summary is. Vote Con.

[1] http://www.zeldawiki.org...
[2] http://i.word.com...
[3] http://www.zeldawiki.org...
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mongeese 6 years ago
mongeese
I could always point out that the Temple of Time was in Castle Town, in the Lanyaru Province, and therefore, the Temple of Time moved regardless of where it was moved to. It would just be a difference between the Faron Province and the Ordona Province.
Posted by Korashk 6 years ago
Korashk
///That the Temple of Time cannot be in Hyrule because of Hyrule's history should have been brought up in an earlier round. I will not weight it because it was introduced in the second half of the last round. It should have been a central argument for CON, in my opinion.///

Ya, it's too bad I didn't even think of that point until R3. It destroys the sword contention.
Posted by wjmelements 6 years ago
wjmelements
Close debate.
Spelling goes to PRO. Any reader should have noticed this.
Arguments were more complicated. I determined that Ordona was in fact a part of Hyrule based off of the map argument, to which CON's final argument was itself a speculation. CON did poorly in regard to answering PRO's third round arguments on this topic. CON's first round argument was well defeated by distinguishing Hyrule Proper from Hyrule.
That the Temple of Time cannot be in Hyrule because of Hyrule's history should have been brought up in an earlier round. I will not weight it because it was introduced in the second half of the last round. It should have been a central argument for CON, in my opinion.
CON dominated sources, hands down.
Posted by LeafRod 6 years ago
LeafRod
Zelda is basically the best thing in the universe. I love the music, too. And remixes of the music.
Posted by DarkLink 6 years ago
DarkLink
mongeese is right :P
Posted by Maikuru 6 years ago
Maikuru
Hooray.
Posted by mongoose 6 years ago
mongoose
And mongeese continues to strive for "balance" in video games.
Posted by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
Loz:TP is win. It just is.
Posted by Danielle 6 years ago
Danielle
You are such a nerd lol <3
Posted by Vi_Veri 6 years ago
Vi_Veri
This debate makes me so happy lol
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
mongeeseKorashkTied
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Vote Placed by wjmelements 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by ccstate4peat 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by mongeese 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Korashk 6 years ago
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