The Instigator
JacobGibbsDofE
Pro (for)
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The Contender
sidewinder
Con (against)
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0 Points

In Western Countries, Men's rights are more of an issue than Women's rights.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/25/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 718 times Debate No: 68890
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

JacobGibbsDofE

Pro

Hello, I am Jacob Gibbs.

Resolution: Talking only about issues directly affecting the social equality (or lack of) in developed Western countries such as the United Kingdom and the United States of America, Men's rights are more of an issue than Women's rights.

Definitions
Men's rights: Issues in which social inequality is a result of decisions/choices, whether consciously or subconsciously, motivated by a hatred, or discrimination against, men.
Women's rights: Issues in which social inequality is a result of decisions/choices, whether consciously or subconsciously, motivated by a hatred, or discrimination against, women.
(+ for the purpose of the debate, Social (in/)equality relates to (in/)equality of opportunity, not (in/)equality of outcome

Rules
1. No abuse of semantics.
2. No resorts to insults or personal attacks.
3. All Terms of Service apply.
4. Breaking any rule constitutes a forfeit.

Structure
Round 1 - Acceptance
Round 2 - Arguments
Round 3 - Rebuttals

sidewinder

Con

I accept this debate
Debate Round No. 1
JacobGibbsDofE

Pro

1. Domestic Violence
a) Male victims
        • [Richard L. Davis, 2009 Journal] Men are more likely than women to die as a result of domestic violence [1].
        • [Janet Bloomfield, 2013 Article; National Surveys from Centre for Disease Control & Department of Justice] More men than women are victims of intimate partner violence [2].
b) Female instigators
        • [Martin Fiebert Ph.D., June 2013 study] Women are equally or more aggressive than men in relationships [3].
        • [Dr. Elizabeth Bates, July 2014 study] Women are significantly more likely to be physically aggressive [4].
c) Shelters
        • [Mankind Initiative] In the United Kingdom, there are 180x the amount of Domestic violence shelters for Heterosexual women than for heterosexual men [5].
2. Quotas
a) Legitimacy
        • [Wendy M. Williams & Stephen Ceci, Cornell University professors at the Department of Human Development 2014 study] There's no evidence that the supposed "glass ceiling" keeps women out of high-up STEM jobs. The evidence [6] shows that, as articulated in this video by the American Enterprise Institute [7],:
Ph.D. women are as likely as their male counterparts to be invited to interview for tenure track jobs
Ph.D. women are as likely as their male counterparts to be offered that job
Ph.D. women receive comparable salaries to their male counterparts
Ph.D. women receive similar levels of funding to their male counterparts
Ph.D. women express similar levels of satisfaction to their male counterparts

Explanations for why there aren't as many women in some fields is they're not interested, however other factors are that male graduates value their earnings over their personal satifsfaction with the job [8].

b) Effect on performance
The academic concensus on attempts to increase Gender diversity's effect on corporate performance is a negative correlation. The organization C4MB (Campaign for Merit in Business) has collected five reports, all concluding that increased female representation leads to performance decline [9]:
        1. Professor Kenneth R. Ahern (University of Southern California) & Professor Amy K. Dittmar (University of Michigan), 2011 paper
        2. Professor Oyving Bohern (Norwegian School of Management) & Professor R Oystein Strom (Oslo and Akershus University College), 2010 paper
        3. Professor David A Matsa (Northwestern University, Kellogg School of Management) & Professor Amalia R Miller (University of Virginia, 2011 paper
        4. Professor David Ferreira (London School of Economics) & Renee B. Adams (University of New South Wales), 2008 paper
        5. Professor Alan N. Berger (University of South Carolina, Wharton Financial Institutions Center and Tilburg University), Thomas Kick (Deutsche Bundesbank), Professor Klaus Schaek (Bangor University); studies done 1994-2010, paper published 2012
c) Popularity
Quotas discriminate against men who are more suitable for a job just because they're men. But they receive support in Britain from:
        • David Cameron's Conservative Party (Despite it being a mostly broken promise) [10]
        • Ed Miliband's Labour Party [11]
        • Nick Clegg's Lib Dems [12]
        • Natalie Bennett's Green Party [13]
3. Views of Gender in society
a) Standards
        • [Amy W.Y. Yeung, 2012 report] Men who treat women the same way they treat men are seen as sexist by both men and women [14].
b) "Women are wonderful" effect
        • [Alice H. Eagly, Antonio Mladinic, Stacey Otto, 1990 article] The "Women are wonderful" effect is a phenomena found through psychological research finding that even negatives qualities more common in women, such as aggression (see earlier source), are associated with women less than they are with men [15].
c) Women's view on men
        • [DM, 2013] Research shows that women think that men are good for "nothing" [16].
4. Crime
a) Sentence Disparity
        • [David B. Mustard, University of Georgia, April 2001 report] For the same crime under similar circumstances, the average sentence for a man is 51.5 months, whereas for a woman it's 18.5 months [17].
        • [DM, 2010 article] Judges in Britain have been ordered to show more mercy on women criminals [18].
5. Education
a) Bias
        • [19-University of Helsinki, 2011 report + 20-Christopher M. Cromwell, 2012 report] Female teachers are more biased than male teachers, female teachers disproportionately treat boys worse and give them lower grades [19,20].
6. Feminist Bias in Academia
a) Non-feminist Domestic Violence studies
        • [Murray A. Strauss, Ph.D., 2010 report] There are seven ways listed by Murray A. Strauss in his 2010 report in which non-feminist DV reports are censored [21]:
        1. "Concealing the evidence"
        2. "Avoid Obtaining evidence on Female penetration"
        3. "Selective Citation of research"
        4. "Stage Conclusions that Contradict the Data"
        5. "Block publication of Articles that have information feminists don't like"
        6. "Prevent funding of Research"
        7. "Harass, Threaten, or Punish people who publish information feminists don't like"
        • ex. of Censorship: [Fox News, 2006 article] "Feminists Deny Truth on Domestic Violence" [22]
        • ex. of Concealing the evidence: [Greg Anderson, 2014 article] "Domestic Violence study suspended by UNSW for break of ethics" [23]
        • ex. of Preventing funding: [U.S. Department of Justice, 2006 report] -- "U.S. Department of Justice refuses to fund #VAWA studies focusing on violence against men" [24]
b) Non-feminist IQ tests
        • [25-Helmuth Nyborg, 2003 paper+26-Helmuth Nyborg, 2005 paper] Since the late 1980s, the standard IQ test has been altered to purposefully close the natural 8.25-point advantage that adult males have over adult females [25,26].
c) Feminist Factoids in politics
        • Barack Obama, thought to be the most powerful man in the world, infamously repeats popular feminist lies, such as the 23% pay gap based on "discrimination" [27]. In reality, even reports suggesting a 6.6% gap [28] have had errors pointed out in them. Academic Christina Hoff Sommers [29] writes:
"Economics majors (66 percent male) have a median income of $70,000; for sociology majors (68 percent female) it is $40,000. Economist Diana Furchtgott-Roth of the Manhattan Institute has pointed to similar incongruities. The AAUW study classifies jobs as diverse as librarian, lawyer, professional athlete, and "media occupations" under a single rubric--"other white collar." "

One report from the U.S. Dept. of Labor shows that the pay gap is "almost entirely" due to individual choices, and not discrimination [30].

d) Bias in Wikipedia
        • [The Guardian, 2015] Wikipedia were recently forced to ban 5 editors fron Gender-related articles [31].
7. Paternity
a) Child Custody
        • Related to general court bias against men, Men lose 84% of child custody cases [32].
b) Fatherlessness
        • [Kristina Hansen, 2013] "Study links aggressive boys to Mom's behaviour" [33]
        • Fatherlessness increases young boys' susceptibility to developing hypermasculine traits [34]
        • 2013 Study: Fatherlessness children suffer neurobiological deficits [35]
Sources
1 http://www.emeraldinsight.com...
2 http://www.avoiceformen.com...
3 https://j4mb.files.wordpress.com...
4 https://www.nationalparentsorganization.org...
5 http://j4mb.wordpress.com...
6 http://www.psychologicalscience.org...
7 https://www.youtube.com...
8 http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
9 https://c4mb.files.wordpress.com...
10 http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
11 http://www.theguardian.com...
12 http://www.itv.com...
13 http://www.greenparty.org.uk...
14 https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca...
15 http://pwq.sagepub.com...
16 http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
17 http://people.terry.uga.edu...
18 http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
19 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
20 http://people.terry.uga.edu...
21 http://pubpages.unh.edu...
22 http://www.foxnews.com...
23 http://www.familylawexpress.com.au...
24 http://www.reddit.com...
25 http://www.amazon.com...
26 http://www.sciencedirect.com...
27 https://www.youtube.com...
28 http://www.aauw.org...
29 http://www.huffingtonpost.com...
30 http://www.consad.com...
31 http://www.theguardian.com...
32 http://www.census.gov...
33 http://www.avoiceformen.com...
34 https://books.google.co.uk...
35 http://www.avoiceformen.com...

sidewinder

Con

You have laid out a lot of interesting point in your previous article but I still disagree with you on a fundamental level
1. Women are not equally represented in government for despite the 50% population of women they represent only 20% of government positions
http://www.thenation.com...

2.Women in the US before Obamacare were denied basic health services in their insurance such as birth control because it violated other peoples beliefs
http://abcnews.go.com...

3.Women are slightly more likely to be abused in a relationship
http://www.saveservices.org...

4.Laws that fail to account for the special needs of women in pregnancy (this was the worst one I found)
http://www.nytimes.com...

5. Catcalling women is social acceptable
https://www.youtube.com...
The video is interesting but what I find really interesting is videos made to criticize this video that blame the women for wearing to attractive clothes or how she was asking for it because that opinion is unfortunately socially acceptable at least in America (I've only been across the pond once)

6. Women are offered less for the same type of job
http://www.bloomberg.com...
http://thinkprogress.org...
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...
http://gender.stanford.edu...

7. Women are significantly less likely to be extremely wealthy
http://fortune.com...

8. Despite Quotas in Britain women are still not equally represented in government
http://www.ukpolitical.info...

Conclusion although you make very interesting points in your argument by law men have more freedom than men thus I can not see this belief as honest.
Debate Round No. 2
JacobGibbsDofE

Pro

Refutations

"Women are not equally represented in Government"
  1. My opponent has not explained why a disconnect between the percentage of women in the population and the percentage of women in government positions matters. As long as you vote for them, their Gender, Race, etc. shouldn't matter.
  2. My opponent has not proven that the cause of this is discrimination.
  3. My opponent has not proven that the changes this "issue" would need to stop existing are viable. For example, I listed five papers in my second round showing a strong correlation between increased female representation on corporate boards and decline in corporate performance.

"Women in the US before Obamacare were denied basic health services in their insurance such as birth control because it violated other peoples beliefs"

  1. My opponent is not talking about something that is currently an issue.
  2. My opponent does not recognize that the Hobby Lobby case did not deny women all forms of contraception/birth control.
  3. My opponent does not recognize that women could still get all forms of contraception themselves even then.


"Women are slightly more likely to be abused in a relationship http://www.saveservices.org...;

  1. My opponent does not recognize that his own source is an article proving that more men than women are victims of partner abuse.
  2. In fact, his source contains a lot of information backing up my point. It shows, with sources, that men are less likely to seek out help, & that two thirds of men who have tried to get help as victims of Domestic Violence have found these methods not at all helpful. (Really, thank you!)
  3. My opponent does not clarify what "slightly more" is, and gives us no context around the issue.
  4. My opponent's statement does not appear to be supported by the source he gave at all.

"Laws that fail to account for the special needs of women in pregnancy (this was the worst one I found)http://www.nytimes.com...;

This does not appear to be happening on a large scale, in fact there are already laws against it.

"Catcalling women is social acceptable https://www.youtube.com...;
  1. My opponent does not recognize that a man has done a similar experiment in the same area and got the same level of catcalling (https://www.youtube.com...).
  2. My opponent does not recognize that a woman has made a similar video walking 10 hours in Mumbai, dressing even more promiscuously and getting zero catcalls (http://ibnlive.in.com...). This proves that the catcalling was dependent on the location, not the Gender. As academic Christina Hoff Sommers points out (https://www.youtube.com...), most of the catcalls the woman in New York received were in one particular part of the city, and were by ethnic minority homeless people (persumably due to their low social status).
"Women are offered less for the same type of job"
  1. My opponent does not recognize that the same type of job is not the same job.
  2. My opponent does not recognize that one of the articles he references in this point uses the same study I debunked in my second round.
  3. My opponent forgets that, as I've shown with sources before, men are more concerned with their pay than job satisfaction, unlike women.
  4. Like the more general wage Gap myth, there are several studies showing there is no gender bias in sciences, including ones I didn't link to in the second round. For example: Women in Science: No Discrimination, says Cornell Study http://www.science20.com...
  5. My opponent doesn't recognize that his source thinkprogress.org never clarifies how it controls by occupation, leading to ambiguity and a lot of reasonable doubt considering the paper reviewing over 50 peer-reviewed papers and concluding there is no pay gap, and the studies and analysis I've linked to before showing there is no gender bias in STEM.
"Women are significantly less likely to be extremely wealthy"
  1. My opponent does not give any explanation as to why this is caused by discrimination.
  2. My opponent does not mention the fact that men make up around three quarters of the homeless (http://usich.gov...).
"Despite Quotas in Britain women are still not equally represented in government"
  1. My opponent has not explained why a disconnect between the percentage of women in the population and the percentage of women in government positions matters. As long as you vote for them, their Gender, Race, etc. shouldn't matter.
  2. My opponent has not proven that the cause of this is discrimination.
  3. My opponent has not proven that the changes this "issue" would need to stop existing are viable. For example, I listed five papers in my second round showing a strong correlation between increased female representation on corporate boards and decline in corporate performance.
Thank you.
sidewinder

Con

domestic violence
First of all the source I used if you rad it said that men were victims of abuse in a relationship 40% of the time while for women it was closer to 50% so I did not clarify the exact number because it was in my source. I also made no claim that men are not abused in a relationship but simply that men are more often the abusers
http://www.saveservices.org...

lower pay jobs
My opponent has just said that women are likely to get higher pay if they have a Doctorate which a very small percentage of America actually has however my sources account for the general workforce and was done by prestigious university such as Yale which as in my source shows that women were offered up to 11,000 dollars less than men

Effect on work place performance
How does this have anything to do with equality?

Popularity
I find this ironic because you claim that the number of women in goverment dose not matter because it has no correlation with discrimination but now because men are earning a lower percentage of jobs in goverment its discrimination. That is truly hypocrisy at its finest

standards
so if women treated men like women it wouldn't be seen as sexist?

women view on men
apparently 1000 women represent the views of 3,500,000,000 living in the world because your source was a poll of 1000 adults

Feminist Bias in media
Why on earth would you use fox news as a source?

Sorry I can not continue this but know that I argue this as a man who thinks its frankly dangerous to assume the fight for female equality is over
Debate Round No. 3
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by Merphie 2 years ago
Merphie
I was more responding to the comments than the topic. there are solid examples of discrimination under the law including VAWA, yes means yes in CA. Therr are also bias in how neutral laws are implemented like title IX, sentencing, crimes, and section 4d.
Posted by UndeniableReality 2 years ago
UndeniableReality
You'd have to connect those statistics to civil rights, and show they collectively outweigh all other relevant statistics.
Posted by Merphie 2 years ago
Merphie
Men lead in suicides and victims of crime yet trail in education and health. I don't see how anyone could argue against.
Posted by Pokemonzr 2 years ago
Pokemonzr
You go to HAC, right?
Posted by JacobGibbsDofE 2 years ago
JacobGibbsDofE
@UndeniableReality 1v1 me then
We can just focus on UK+US if you like
Posted by UndeniableReality 2 years ago
UndeniableReality
You'd have to be able to quantify the degree of discrimination men face due to the fact that they are men, versus the degree of discrimination women face due to the fact that they are women, integrate over all western countries, and then compare in order to show your proposition is actually true. I doubt you've done that calculation.

I also find it hard to imagine how someone could actually believe this is true. Of course men face discrimination, but not to the same extent as women, and their lives and physical integrity don't incur the same risk.
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