The Instigator
HandsOff
Pro (for)
Winning
25 Points
The Contender
wingnut2280
Con (against)
Losing
15 Points

In general, women have less control over their love lives than do men.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/19/2008 Category: Society
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,398 times Debate No: 2781
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (8)
Votes (12)

 

HandsOff

Pro

Because a female learns from an early age that it is the man's job to approach her, introduce himself, call her, ask for a date, etc., most women have no say in assembling the lineup of men from which they are to choose a prospective mate. If Mr. right doesn't have the initial interest, time or courage to approach her, the opportunity to meet him may be gone forever. She will never know if there was a mutual attraction. That is why I believe the romantic fates of most women are beyond their immediate control.

Men, on the other hand, are taught that they should approach women they find attractive. Sure, they get shot down a lot, but at least they know it is socially acceptable for them to take the initiative and approach any target that catches their eye. I'm sure there are bold females out there who are exceptions to the rule. That's why I used the term "in general." But for the most part, women have less control over who their love lives than do men.
wingnut2280

Con

This traditionalist mindset no longer holds true. Sure, years ago, even a few years ago, this would have been true. But, now, women's sexuality and role in dating has been empowered. While some people still hold your mindset, I would say it is no longer the rule. We see this in shows like Sex and the City and others. I'll elaborate if necessary.
Debate Round No. 1
HandsOff

Pro

Note: This debate is going to be based more on personal experience and original thought than scientific evidence. It don't think the topic is serious enough to devote much time to research.

Wingnut,
I'm not speaking from a traditionalist mindset, but from objective observation and personal experience talking with females. Some women will approach men, but for the most part, they do not. Most do not do it frequently enough to develop confidence and solid "game." Also, since females rarely deal with rejection, they are not armed with the thick skin many men develop. Like most men starting out in the dating scene, women cringe at the thought of being rejected. But, unlike men, they are not expected to develop the courage necessary to cast their fears aside. While men spend their youth getting better at approaching females, women are given tacit permission to sit, hope, and wait.
wingnut2280

Con

Again, all of this experience and observation is traditionalist. Traditionally, women sit back and are subserviant to men from a personality perspective. This is no longer true. Women go out and seek men now and face all of the same struggles as men do. While I admit, this hasn't always been the case, the archetypal female persona has been thrown aside in the effort for gender equality.

We see this in MODERN culture, rather than stereotypes rooted in traditional imagery and expectations.
Debate Round No. 2
HandsOff

Pro

I stated that my observations are objective, and I tried to imply that they are contemporary and not traditionalist. I am out on the town quite a bit. I hang out with a lot of single male and female friends who are in their early to late 20s. I'm not spouting armchair philosophy here. This is truly my experience and the experience of the females I've interviewed. I also know many strong, independent females that are professional pickup artists. They are out there. I'm simply arguing that MOST women are not like this and are destined to wait for Mr. Right to pursue them.

I think you would agree that if I'm right about the fact that MOST women do not approach men, I am right that they are not in complete control of who they have the opportunity to meet and date. I think we would need to take a pole on whether MOST women frequently approach men. We are hung up on a point neither of us can prove for now. We have essentially changed the topic of this debate.
wingnut2280

Con

America is the greatest country in the world! Thats my objective opinion. You can't just say that you are objective, no one really is.

While I agree, women don't go out and seek men, this doesn't mean they are any less in control. The only difference is, women are less likely to go after guys that they don't want. Sleezy guys come up and try to pick up a thousand women. Women only pick up men they are legitimately interested in. This is why less women pick up men than guys pick them up. In other words, guys make more attempts, but that doesn't mean that girls are any less able to make a move when they really want to.

In order to prove that women have less control, you would have to prove that they are unable to pick guys up as men are. While this may have been the case in the past, the gender movement has made this a moot point. I agree that neither of us can really generate proof of position, but look at the logic of it. Women are mroe empowered than ever and are no able to pick up men just as men pick up women. The only reason we see men as the instigator is because they instigate more often, not because they are any more able.

Now, you argue that men instigating more often leads to more control. This isn't true. Women, while not as versed in the world of rejection, still have the ability to approach a guy. This is less dependent on prior experience as it is more so on individual personality. You could argue the opposite as well. A lifetime of rejection discourages men from intigating often. Again, we can never know for sure, but the ability of women to pick up men is equal. Therefore, they would have equal control over their dating lives.
Debate Round No. 3
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
Haste makes waste. Let's try that again...

I have not used the word "power" in any of my arguments. With more choices and a greater variety to choose from (because one is approaching instead of waiting to be approached) a person is exposing him/her self to a greater number of people for whom there may be mutual attraction. Once the mutual attraction is established the approacher also has the ability to decide if the interaction should continue. So he/she too is involved in the choosing process even as the approacher.

The more accepted advances one makes the more discerning he/she can be in the hunt for Mr. or Mrs. Right. More choices means a higher likelyhood of finding what he/she wants. With your line of reasoning you are telling me that someone who is shopping at a the corner liquor store has the same CONTROL over what ends up in the his shopping cart as someone who is shopping at Walmart. The person who has more opportunities for mutual attraction to occur has more choices and hence more CONTROL over his/her romantic destiny. That person is taking charge of his/her romantic destiny.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
I have not used the word "power" in any of my arguments. With more choices and a greater variety to choose from Because one is approaching instead of waiting to be approached, he is exposing himself you a greater number of people to which he may have a mutual attraction. Once the mutual attraction begins he is able to decide if he also approves of her. So he too is involved in the choosing process even though he approached. The more accepted advances the more discerning he can be as to whether he's found Mrs. Right. More choices means a higher likelyhood of finding what you want. With your line of reasoning you are telling me that someone who is shopping at a the corner liquor store has the same CONTROL over what ends up in the his shopping cart as someone who is shopping at Walmart. The person who has more opportunities for mutual attraction to occur has more choices and hence more control over his/her romantic destiny.
Posted by bsergent 9 years ago
bsergent
Your insurance argument depends entirely on demand. I see what you are trying to say but again, the ultimate control, the power the choose, is the only real power. Choice IS power.

When a man sees a woman he likes he has 0 power over her. At best he can hope to influence her decision but that is not power. That is merely influence, it is not real control, which is choice. It is still her decision. Its then obvious who has more power regardless. Man 0 woman 1. Granted if the woman is not attractive to a given man he will not go after her, or he will not respond even when chased, but as far as the genders generally it boils down to which side gets to make that choice, yay or nay, more often. And since this is a gender issues, it by definition is also a sex issue, and as far as sex goes, for chemical reasons, men want sex generally more than women. There for woman are the gatekeepers, the choosers, the ones with power.

Sure, someone who guards a door no one wants to pass through is powerless, as in your insurance setting, but that is not the case. 6.5 billion and counting, clearly people want sex.

"If I stop approaching people of interest I am limited to selecting from just those who approach me. "

Yes, obviously. But you had the choice to begin with, using power to give up power or destroy power does not mean you never had the power. This is the nature of choice, in order for it to be a choice you must pick between mutually exclusive options. In this case, remove the choice or keep it.

"By choosing to do so have I not effectively limited my options?"

Yes you have but how you choose to exercise power has no bearing on the existent of that power at the time you exercise it. Sure if I have the power to blow my head off and I use it I remove my power to do anything there after except die, but, that does not mean that I never had the power to blow my head off.

All of these analogies are not needed. I understand your argument, and my rebuttal stands.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
ps-- who has more control over his destiny, the insurance salesman who sits and waits in his office for someone to walk through the door, or the person who goes out and knocks on other people's doors? The client is still in control of the decision making, but it is the salesman initiative that creates the prospects.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
bsergent,
You have some explaining to do. If (as a man or woman) I stop approaching people of interest I am limited to selecting from just those who approach me. By choosing to do so have I not effectively limited my options?
Posted by bsergent 9 years ago
bsergent
Fatal flaw, Flaw not flow lol. (sigh)
Posted by bsergent 9 years ago
bsergent
I'm so happy the side I agree with debated better also.

You admitted your fatal flow in the opening argument...

"...the lineup of men from which they are to choose..."

They choose. Choice is control. Females are defined by their position as the chooser mate. That's how we tell bird genders apart typically, the males are the ones that compete and then get selected.

It doesn't matter that men choose which line to get into, because so long as there is monogamy there will always be a line.

Saying women have less control because they don't compose the line is like saying the guy with the soup isn't in charge because he doesn't choose who's in line. You misunderstand the nature of power.

Further, the power that men have that you speak of is general and divided among dozens of men, maybe thousands, or even the whole population, but the female side of that equation has only one person to hold the power. So in terms of power to number ratio the female is the obvious victor, by a staggering margin.

Just ask any female celebrity if she feels men control who she dates.

And yes this is a serious subject worthy of study, human mating controls each subsequent generation of society. This could be the only thing worth studying since, if we fail to understand this, we fail to understand ourselves as a species.
Posted by HandsOff 9 years ago
HandsOff
Nice debate. I actually believe that women would be BETTER at picking up guys if they had to balls. Even though more now have the courage than in the past, I don't think it is the majority. That is where I believe our disagreement lies. I'm almost certain the majority of women (and men) would say they have had several times where they were attracted to someone but never approached. Men feel like wimps if they don't approach and feel responsible for botching a possible connection if they do not. Women put much less pressure on themselves to approach and therefore do it less (on top of you accurate observation that they are more picky). Here's how they might respond to missing an opportunity with someone who caught their eye: "He didn't approach me. Oh well, I guess it wasn't meant to be." Much different than how a man would feel.
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