The Instigator
kellyd
Pro (for)
Losing
21 Points
The Contender
Paradigm_Lost
Con (against)
Winning
36 Points

In order to achieve peace in the Middle East the U.S. must stop completely supporting Israel.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,265 times Debate No: 4144
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (43)
Votes (16)

 

kellyd

Pro

I am arguing that the United States must try to decrease its biased support of Israel and try to create real peace between the Israelis and Palestinians which will end the oppression of the Palestinians and create a fair solution for both nations.

Before I begin, I would like to say that I am not against an Israeli state. I think that Israel deserves its own state, regardless of the fact that it was unfair for it to be placed where other people had been living for centuries…

The United States' support for Israel is helping to create an unbalance in the Middle East which is making peace impossible to achieve. Although I do not condone terrorism of any kind, I also do not condone the control that Israel is exercising over the Palestinian people. The extremists basically have no choice except to use terrorism to scare Israel. Obviously, this does not help the peace process because the United States and Israel generalize that these terrorists represent the whole Arab population. (I'm not going to get into the links or lack thereof between Islam and terrorism; that's another debate..)
In 1967, the Israeli army defeated the Arab armies in six days. Its army is not only stronger, but it is backed financially by the United States, and is given resources by the United States. All of this is common knowledge. It would be impossible for it to be overthrown.
If the United States continues to back Israel the way it has, peace will not be achieved because the anger of Palestinian extremists will continue to grow, causing Israel to tighten its security more and more and continue to oppress the Palestinian people.
Currently, Israel is building the separation wall around the West Bank inside of where the official line was declared by the United Nations. It is colonizing inside of Palestinian land and driving Palestinian people from their homes. It is creating roadblocks inside of the Palestinian territory which is making life for the Palestinians extremely difficult. With checkpoints, Palestinians are humiliated and often not even allowed to cross to get to the most basic and essential locations. All of this is simply unfair and needs to stop.

The United States is only promoting this by supporting Israel 100 %. With the Iraq war, its relations with the Arab people are getting worse and worse. This is not good for the United States. We need to support both nations, discourage terrorism and Israeli oppression, and encourage diplomatic negotiations.

Thanks to whoever takes this debate, I look forward to it.
Good luck!
Paradigm_Lost

Con

"I am arguing that the United States must try to decrease its biased support of Israel and try to create real peace"

Your resolution is much more staunch than that, though. You've stated that the US "must stop COMPLETELY supporting Israel." As well, you can't simply say that the US is biased in favor of Israel as if it is an unreasonable position. I mean, here you are in a biased position in favor of Palestine. The reality about the US's foreign policy as it relates to Israel, is that Israel is an ally. It would be like asking Palestine to stop being biased against the United States in favor of, say, Iran. Each nation has ideologies specific to their demographic. Consequently, this is how people make friends as well. People choose their friends based upon their likenesses and kindness. I don't see why nations would be any different.

"oppression of the Palestinians and create a fair solution for both nations."

First of all, much of the alleged oppression is grossly exaggerated and inflamed by Palestinians, Arab sympathizers, and liberal sympathizers who don't quite understood all of the details. For instance, welcome to Pallywood, where melodrama reigns supreme:

And then of course there is the media itself which tends to be slanted towards Palestinians themselves. Reuters was busted big time during the Israeli/Lebanese conflict. (They aren't the only news agency to commit fraud that intentionally defames Israel).

"I think that Israel deserves its own state, regardless of the fact that it was unfair for it to be placed where other people had been living for centuries."

Well, actually there is a bit of a misnomer here. There was no such thing as a "Palestine" prior to the 1940's. The people that refer to themselves as Palestinians are actually Arabs (as in: lineage deriving from Saudi Arabia) who emigrated mostly from Israel's neighbor, Jordan. After the Romans sacked Jerusalem in AD 70, the Jewish Diaspora began -- the dispersion of the Jews to other lands. The Romans would later refer to Israel as Palestine, in commemoration of ancient Philistines, which have no ties to modern-day Palestinians, either by blood or by incident. This is where the name, Palestine, comes from.

It would be well worth for ALL the readers to watch this video:

"The United States' support for Israel is helping to create an unbalance in the Middle East which is making peace impossible to achieve."

No, the support of Israel has to do with the fact that Israel is one of the only countries in the Middle East to embrace democracy. The US supported Lebanon for a long time before it was overrun by Muslim extremists that exterminated anyone not of their kind. We also loosely support Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The US does not want to have problems with nations, any nation, but least of all, in the Middle East. The reality is that the Middle East has a problem with the US. The US would love nothing more than to have the M.E. accept them... But they don't, so we have to deal with the reality of the situation. Seriously, why would the US want strife and enmity with a region saturated with oil, when the US consumes more oil than any other nation? Please substantiate your argument.

"Although I do not condone terrorism of any kind, I also do not condone the control that Israel is exercising over the Palestinian people. The extremists basically have no choice except to use terrorism to scare Israel."

That's either a pernicious lie or its profound ignorance of international affairs. Either way, some remediation on the subject is in order.

Straight from the horses mouth:

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel." -Yassar Arafat

"Currently, Israel is building the separation wall around the West Bank inside of where the official line was declared by the United Nations. It is colonizing inside of Palestinian land and driving Palestinian people from their homes."

You have it backwards. Israelis were expelled from their homes by the threat of force.

Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com...

"Palestinians are humiliated and often not even allowed to cross to get to the most basic and essential locations. All of this is simply unfair and needs to stop."

It is unfortunate that nice, law-abiding Palestinians have to suffer for what their own people have done. But none of this would ever have been necessary if it weren't for inflammatory groups like the P.L.O. and Hamas constantly blowing Israeli's up and spreading the most vile propaganda to indoctrinate their own children messages of hatred and intolerance.

Everyone do yourselves a favor and WATCH the video

Seriously, can you accept the fact that little children are being taught the most vile things?

And STILL Israel extends its hand in friendship:

http://yaakov.newsvine.com...
Debate Round No. 1
kellyd

Pro

Sorry for the confusion;I meant that the United States needs to stop supporting Israel 100%.Not that it needs to stop completely supporting Israel.

1."First of all, much of the alleged oppression is grossly exaggerated and inflamed by Palestinians,Arab sympathizers,and liberal sympathizers who don't quite understood all of the details."

While it is true that pro-Palestinian propaganda exists, the oppression of the Palestinian people is not as exaggerated as you have argued.
Palestinians must use specially marked Palestinian roads which are much less convenient and advanced than the Israeli roads.(1)These roads often contain roadblocks,prohibiting goods and people from crossing. I already mentioned the separation wall and how that is contributing to Palestinian humiliation and even more difficulty of travel.Curfews have also been ordered by the Israeli government in many areas as well, basically a house-arrest for all the citizens.(2)
It is actually our media which has exaggerated pro-Israel propaganda.For example:(3)
2. "Well,actually there is a bit of a misnomer here. There was no such thing as a "Palestine"prior to the 1940's."

Palestine actually has existed since it went under Roman rule. It was known as Syria Palaestina, and although that means "Philistine Syria" in English, it was later known as "Palestine."The Palestinian National Authority did not develop until 1994, when Israel was already a state, but the Palestinian people have existed for much, much longer than their representative government. The Arab people living there go back a ways….all the way back to 538 B.C. when the Persian king Cyrus conquered Judea. At the time there were also Jewish people living there.Jews and Arabs, therefore, lived alongside each other for a long timeThese Persian people,Arabs,as you said(yes,Palestinians are Arabs)have been therefore been living there since around 436 BC.The Arab population increased when Palestine came under the rule of the Ottoman Empire in 600 AD(10)The fact of the matter is, that by the time Israel was declared a state,these people had a nationality.Though their country was unofficial, they had and have lives,history,and culture.This was invaded by the Jewish Zionist movement, causing higher numbers of Jewish immigrants to Palestine in the late 19th century.

3. "Seriously, why would the US want strife and enmity with a region saturated with oil, when the US. Consumes more oil than any other nation?"
I wonder the same thing.This was what I was saying when I stated"The United States is only promoting this by supporting Israel 100%.With the Iraq war, its relations with the Arab people are getting worse and worse."However, it is NOT the Middle East that is instigating the poor relations with the US,it is the US.Instead of invading Iraq and wholly supporting Israel we should instead be trying to befriend the other Arab nations instead of completely ignoring them and refusing to negotiate(as we have done with Iran)(11)and maybe do some beneficial things for Palestine which,rather than tear Israel and Palestine apart, would bring them together.For example, what Japan, another large oil consumer, has done:www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/837937.html

"And then of course there is the media itself, which tends to be slanted towards Palestinians themselves."
Uh,what country are you living in?Isn't it logical that, with the gravity of the situation in the Middle East and our involvement, that there would be a slant in our media towards our ally, Israel?(4)This is ESPECIALLY true, with the huge Jewish lobby that exists in our nation.(5)"The Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticize it is to be immediately dubbed anti-Semitic,"he said."People are scared in this country, to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful -- very powerful." (8) Barack Obama actually stated once that"no one has suffered more than the Palestinian people"(9) Once he realized how he had infuriated Jewish Americans, however, he slightly changed his stance, but he is criticized highly for his stance on supporting the Palestinians.This shows the power of our Jewish lobby and the bias that exists toward Israel in our nation especially.
4. "Straight from the horses mouth: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war,we do this in stages.We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more.When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel." -Yassar Arafat"

I hate to reiterate my points, but this quote only enforces what I said. Arafat is saying that because they are not strong enough to defeat Israel in war, they must resort to other methods. This is what I was saying.I don't think it's a "profound ignorance of international affairs", but fact, to state that Israel's army is clearly stronger than the Arab nations' armies, since it has the United States' support.Its strength was shown in the 1967 Six Days War. Please clarify how exactly it is a lie that Israel is stronger than Palestine and therefore terrorism is not something that will logically happen in this situation. When peoples' basic needs are not met, they tend to revolt.This is true everywhere.

5. "You have it backwards.Israelis were expelled from their homes by the threat of force."
Actually, I think it is you who is misinformed.The Green line is not being followed by the Israelis. (12) In addition to this, there are definitely Israeli "settlements" inside the West Bank. Often, Israeli people are even paid to move into these settlements. (1) They are colonizing the Palestinian West Bank. These settlements are illegal.(3)And they have developed gradually. It is clear that Israel is intentionally slowly taking the West Bank and Gaza from the Palestinians."At first, other than the Jerusalem area, settlements were built mostly in relatively unpopulated areas.…However, when the right-wing Likud party came to power in 1977, settlement building began in earnest in the West Bank…A large city, Ariel, was built deep in Palestinian territory and the trans-Samaria highway was created to connect it with Israel. At present (2002) there are about 210,00 Jews living in the West Bank, a small number in Gaza, and another 200,000 or so Jews living in areas of Jerusalem and environs annexed in 1967."(13)Although there have also been Jewish refugees of much smaller numbers, the amount of Palestinians who have fled, been massacred, or have become refugees and are living in refugee camps is astounding. After the war of 1948, there were around 726,000 Palestinian refugees according to the UN. "This number has grown to include over 4.6 million displaced persons, about 3.7 million of whom are currently registered as refugees with the UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees)." (14)
(1)
Part I of this :
(2) http://www.jmcc.org...
(3) http://findarticles.com...
(4) http://www.mathaba.net...
(5)http://www.altpr.org...
(6) http://www.hillaryclinton.com...
(7) http://www.barackobama.com...
(8) http://www.rense.com...
(9) http://www.latimes.com...
(10) http://www.salaam.co.uk...
(11) http://www.wsws.org...
(12) http://www.vtjp.org...
(13) http://www.mideastweb.org...
(14) http://www.mideastweb.org...

My apologies, i had to remove some quotes as well as my final argument because my argument was too long.
Paradigm_Lost

Con

Great reply, Kelly. I will address your arguments sequentially.

"Palestinians must use specially marked Palestinian roads which are much less convenient and advanced than the Israeli roads."

You will have to understand that Israel has suffered innumerable terrorist attacks, mostly killing innocent men, women, and children who simply want to live peacefully. What then is Israel supposed to honestly do?

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net...

"Palestine actually has existed since it went under Roman rule."

I am aware, as I have already mentioned this. I wrote, "The Romans would later refer to Israel as Palestine, in commemoration of ancient Philistines, which have no ties to modern-day Palestinians, either by blood or by incident. This is where the name Palestine comes from."

"by the time Israel was declared a state,these people had a nationality.Though their country was unofficial, they had and have lives,history,and culture."

There is a misnomer concerning when Israel first became a state. During the reign of the Ottoman Empire, countries like Jordan and Israel were initially annexed. After the subsequent fall of that Empire, the League of Nations (predecessor to the United Nations) partitioned the land. Those of Arab and Bedouin lineage were given millions of miles of land. Millions! Particularly, Jordan was specifically given to the people who now refer to themselves as Palestinians, as Palestine is a large area, much larger than what it is known today. Due to the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the Jews repatriated in Israel, their homeland for thousands of years. This was mandated by the British Empire.

Here are the articles declaring this lawful and legally binding: http://www.yale.edu...

After World War II and the horrors of the Nazi regime, the surviving Jews of subsequent extermination fled to other countries. A large population of them fleeing to Israel which spurned on an all-out assault against the Jews.

Why did this happen? Why do Arabs want the Jews out? It's real simple.

1. The Qur'an teaches that the Jews are inferior and disgusting people who fell away from Allah's graces -- that Allah has turned them in to apes and pigs.

2. The third holiest site in Islam is the Dome of the Rock. This is located in Israel, Jerusalem specifically. It also happens to built on the ruins of the Jews ONLY holy site, the Temple Mount (Solomon's Temple) which was destroyed twice -- once by the Babylonians, then by the Romans.

3. Arabs and Nazi's had been in collaboration in order to destroy the Jews. The Jews, in both their eyes, could do nothing to gain favor. This is because they born Jews. And there is nothing to change that. The Jews, in the eyes of many Arabs today, are essentially doomed. Their pact was for the extermination of the Jews.

"This was invaded by the Jewish Zionist movement"

There was no Jewish Zionist "invasion." The British gave that land to the Jews, and gave other lands to the Arabs. History shall not be determined by revisionists, but by truth.

"it is NOT the Middle East that is instigating the poor relations with the US... we should instead be trying to befriend the other Arab nations"

Are you aware that the United States was attacked, completely unprovoked, a total of 16 times BEFORE 9/11?

1. TWA Flight 741: 1970
2. US Embassy in Pakistan attacked: 1979
3. US Embassy in Beirut bombing: 1983
4. Marine barracks bombing in Beirut: 1983
5. Hezbollah bombs Embassy annex in Awkar: 1984
6. TWA Flight 847: 1985
7. Achille Lauro hijacking by Palestinians: 1985
8. Berlin discotheque bombing: 1986
9. Pan Am Flight 103: 1988
10. World Trade Center bombing: 1993
11. Attack on CIA headquarters: 1993
12. Murder of US diplomats in Pakistan: 1995
13. Khobar Towers bombing: 1996
14. US Embassy bombings in Kenya: 1998
15. US Embassy bombing in Tanzania: 1998
16. USS Cole bombing: 2000

Do you know how much retaliatory strikes were made during these? Two. The US sent in forces in to Beirut for a small incursion, and for the USS Cole former President Clinton sent a cruise missile in to an aspirin factory.

Please justify how being a friend of Israel as opposed to denying Islamic extremism, somehow makes the US and Israel the monster of all monsters.

The United States has always attempted to befriend the Middle East. What you are actually suggesting is that the US acquiesce to the demands of a murderous and bloodthirsty people bent on world domination and total conversion to their religion.

Look what appeasement has done to Lebanon, once called the "Paris of the Middle East." It used to be inhabited by Muslims, Jews and Christians in peace and prosperity until this band of thugs murdered the Christians and Jews. Look at what is happening in Europe through appeasement. France's epidemic strain of virulent Wahabbi-islamic extremism is eroding them from the inside out -- all in the interest of political correctness. Holland is right behind them. And what did they do to deserve such a scathing excoriation? Nothing. Just like the US and Israel did nothing to deserve this horrific treatment.

Now you are suggesting that defending against this tyranny is itself tyrannical! How could you support such a contention?

Please, look at what you are actually dealing with. I naturally defy you to show me anything comparable on the part of the Jews.

This is the kind of propaganda that spreads throughout the Muslim world against a tiny nation, the size of Rhode Island.

http://www.protestwarrior.com...

"Isn't it logical that... there would be a slant in our media towards our ally, Israel?"

No, actually, because the media is slanted to the left. The media and the governments policies do not coincide. That seems abundantly clear from Vietnam to Iraq.

http://www.palestinefacts.org...

"It is clear that Israel is intentionally slowly taking the West Bank and Gaza from the Palestinians."

How can you honestly say that, when it is the opposite? The Israeli government has been systematically giving the Palestinians the West Bank and Gaza, completely opposite of what you are saying.

http://www.breitbart.com...

In the mind of the American government, they don't see Palestinians as being a separate people on a national level, than that of Israeli's. It would like Alaskans all of sudden referring to themselves only as Alaskans and not Americans. How would the US deal with an organization that is not recognized, except by popular vote of Palestinians, as a legitimate organization?

I would like for you to read the official determination made by the US congress concerning the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and then ask me why the US seems to side with Israel.

http://www.law.cornell.edu...

This does not mean that America or Israel do not care about people who refer to themselves as Palestinians. What it means is that between the nucleus of power between the PLO and the US are shaky at best, and non-existent at worst. The US government, as well as Israel's, has a right to be wary and suspicious of the PLO given its record of sponsored terrorism.

However, I am curious as to what you would like to see the US do in response to the alleged disparity you speak of. Because the US is always in a tight spot. Many of the people that are upset about America "nation-building" often don't mind when America nation-builds, so long as it coincides with their own ideological filter. What then should the US do about Palestinians that would suffice for you?
Debate Round No. 2
kellyd

Pro

Thanks for your response.

"You will have to understand that Israel has suffered innumerable terrorist attacks, mostly killing innocent men, women, and children who simply want to live peacefully. What then is Israel supposed to honestly do?"

Should Israel really punish the innocent Palestinians who have done nothing but existed in the land that the Israelis think rightfully belongs to them? Is that right? When the Israeli government does these things, it only angers extremists more who already believe that Israel should not exist. This causes more terrorist attacks, which in turn causes Israel to heighten its security and continue to do these things that are unfair to the Palestinian people. It is one giant circle. This being said, there needs to be a government such as the United States that can play the crucial role as mediator. The United States needs to be unbiased and needs to enforce that terrorism stop and that Israel treat the Palestinian civilians better. Right now, the United States is not doing this.

Jordan was separated from the British Mandate in 1922.This is when the area now known as Israel was then referred to as Palestine, although not a declared state. I understand that the Jews have lived there for a long time, but there were also Arab people living in this area. "Although Christian and Muslim Arabs had continued to live in this same land since Roman times, they had no real commitment to establish a separate and independent nation. Their concern was with family and tribe and, for the Muslims, the broader world of Islam."(1)
Whether or not Palestine was a real state, these people had their lives and cultures. When increased Jewish immigration began with the Zionist movement (I will talk about this more later), Palestinians became more concerned with their home being a nation. Israel, therefore, whether it should have been or not, was created on what these people considered to be their land as well.

"Why did this happen? Why do Arabs want the Jews out? It's real simple.

1. The Qur'an teaches that the Jews are inferior and disgusting people who fell away from Allah's graces -- that Allah has turned them in to apes and pigs."

While I have not read the Qu'ran, I can tell you that Muslims do not believe in killing all Jews and Christians. Historically, in fact, Muslims have treated Jews better than Christians have and have preferred them to Christians. " Prophet Muhammad commanded his followers to recognize the common origins of their faith through Abraham, to honor their prophets, and to protect their believers." Now, obviously extremists will exist, as they do in every religion. You can't tell me that even in the United States, there do not exist Christians that have killed based on their religion, for example, even though Jesus taught to "love your neighbor as yourself."

"3. Arabs and Nazi's had been in collaboration in order to destroy the Jews. The Jews, in both their eyes, could do nothing to gain favor. This is because they born Jews. And there is nothing to change that. The Jews, in the eyes of many Arabs today, are essentially doomed. Their pact was for the extermination of the Jews."

As I said before, historically, the Muslim people have been kinder than Christians to the Jews, and in fact prefer them to Christians because "they saw them as less competitive in expanding their political and religious influence." In Muslim-ruled nations, Jews were given less rights but were not exterminated to the same degree as they were in places not under Muslim rule.

"There was no Jewish Zionist "invasion." The British gave that land to the Jews, and gave other lands to the Arabs."

The Zionist movement actually definitely existed, it is the movement in which the Jews tried to acquire what they considered their land
"Early Zionist immigration to Palestine began in the 19th century, while the territory was still under the rule of the Ottoman Turks."(2) The British actually at first put restrictions on this immigration though Arab immigration was unrestricted. "Herbert Samuel, a British Jew who served as the first High Commissioner of Palestine, placed restrictions on Jewish immigration "in the 'interests of the present population' and the 'absorptive capacity' of the country." The influx of Jewish settlers was said to be forcing the Arab fellahin (native peasants) from their land." (2)

"Please justify how being a friend of Israel as opposed to denying Islamic extremism, somehow makes the US and Israel the monster of all monsters."

The US is doing much more than denying Islamic extremism, though. It has historically been a violent, imperialist nation which has done good things, certainly, but also done very bad things that are not always realized. "And that is precisely how the West has
treated the Muslim world for the past. 200 years…The strategy the 19th century colonial rulers adopted to break resistance to their "civilizing mission" was to "ruin, hunt, terrorize" (Olivier Le Cour Grandmaison, French historian). In Algeria entire tribes that had sought refuge in caves were "smoked out" ("enfumades"). The French colonel Lucien-Fran´┐Żois de Montagnac wrote in a letter from Algeria in 1842: "We kill, we strangle. The cries of the desperate and dying mingle with the noise of the bellowing, bleating livestock…."(3) The Islamic fundamentalism has evolved from the West's violent, imperialist policies. Although terrorism is wrong, the West and especially the United States has to some degree, provoked this. Look at your history, and you will see that the West have been more imperialist and violent than the East.

"It is clear that Israel is intentionally slowly taking the West Bank and Gaza from the Palestinians."

Givat Ze'ev, Ma'ale Adumim, these are all names of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. You cannot deny this, it is fact. Please check my previous argument's sources if you do not believe me. The refugee numbers, also in my previous argument, are astounding.

The United States MUST take an unbiased stance on this issue. The result must benefit both sides. Otherwise, peace is impossible. Thank you for reading.

(1)Carter, Jimmy. Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. New York: Simon and Schuster, 2006.
(2)http://www.palestinefacts.org...
(3)http://www.whydoyoukillzaid.com...

Thanks for debating with me, Paradigm Lost. It's been fun.

Please vote Pro.
Paradigm_Lost

Con

"Should Israel really punish the innocent Palestinians who have done nothing but existed in the land that the Israelis think rightfully belongs to them?"

Should Palestine really punish the innocent Israeli's who have done nothing but existed in the land that the Palestinians think rightfully belongs to them? And so we are at an impasse, albeit not for much longer.

"When the Israeli government does these things, it only angers extremists more who already believe that Israel should not exist. This causes more terrorist attacks"

Like I said earlier, anti-semitism is bred in to most Muslims from an early age, forget about extremists. The common Muslim has an aversion to the common Jew by virtue of their religion, their culture, and their disposition. What you are suggesting is that appeasement will bring about peace. You don't seem to understand the Middle East. Until the entire world is converted, there will be no peace no matter how much you attempt to placate them. Placating hasn't worked in Europe, Africa, or the Middle East, and it surely won't work in Israel.

"The United States needs to be unbiased and needs to enforce that terrorism stop and that Israel treat the Palestinian civilians better."

It is not the job of the United States to remain neutral despite reasons for a preference. It would be like asking the US not to side with Canada when Iran attacks them. Would you be unbiased towards a stranger in stead of your own sister? The US didn't sort of haphazardly come to the aid and support of Israel, nor did they sort haphazardly deny the illegitimate Palestinian government. There are very real reasons why this is so.

"Jordan was separated from the British Mandate in 1922.This is when the area now known as Israel was then referred to as Palestine, although not a declared state."

The area known as TransJordan was separated for a specific reason, which I've already stated earlier. The people you know as Palestinians are actually Jordanians from Arab stock. Does Jordan offer to help? Do any Arab nations offer to help? Only when it comes to arms. They will provide an unending supply of arms to Palestinians for the purposes of destroying the Jews. The heads of state in many Arab nations are using Palestine as a wedge and as pawns to destroy the Jews.

"While I have not read the Qur'an, I can tell you that Muslims do not believe in killing all Jews and Christians."

"O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers ? Shall I tell thee of a worse than theirs for retribution with Allah? Worse is the case of him whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine." - Sura 5:59-60

"Slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out ... Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."

"I shall be with you. Give courage to the believers. I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers." -Sura 8:12

"historically, the Muslim people have been kinder than Christians to the Jews"

This is an absurdity beyond the pale and is a total contradiction in terms. First of all, many people claim that America sides with Israel because of their Jewishness (that they are the Chosen People) and that the End of Days is focused around Israel. These sentiments can be directly found in the Bible. While it is true that some Christians, including prolific ones like Martin Luther, were anti-semitic, the common Christian claims that Jews are simply spiritually blind, but that God in the last days will reveal to them the truth about Jesus.

"I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in tears for him, as one that is in tears for his firstborn." -Zechariah 12:10

Again, please review this and tell me how many Christians were involved, and then tell me how many Muslims were involved:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net...

"The Islamic fundamentalism has evolved from the West's violent, imperialist policies. Although terrorism is wrong, the West and especially the United States has to some degree, provoked this. Look at your history, and you will see that the West have been more imperialist and violent than the East."

Really? Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, bin Laden, Ghengis Kahn, Mao Tse-Tung, Saladin, etc, etc, are all Easters who have slaughtered millions upon millions of people to further their imperialist goals of turning the entire world in to what vision they have fashioned. The US has not done anything to somehow justify the slaughter of Americans which has occurred since the 1970's. Incident after incident has happened to civilians who simply want to exist in peace. 16 times was the US attacked without provocation BEFORE 9/11. That's before! This doesn't account for the myriad of attacks leveled at other western countries who have done nothing but befriend the very people that end up killing them.

"Givat Ze'ev, Ma'ale Adumim, these are all names of Jewish settlements in the West Bank."

It isn't illegal for Jews to live in the West Bank just like it isn't illegal for Palestinians to live in Bethlehem. The problem was that Palestinians wanted to be distinguished from the Jews to enhance their own identity. The fact of the matter is that Jews have been giving up land, land that belongs to them, as a way to foster peace. Palestinians and the Arab world has rejected this. This is because nothing will make them happy except watching the Jews being pushed in to the sea.

All peace talks and conferences have failed... every one of them. This is because Palestinian authorities will never be satisfied until Israel is dead and gone. This is honestly the situation. The hatred for the Jews is so strong at this point that nothing will abate it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

In closing, my opponent has taken the idealized approach that if only the US and Israel acquiesce to unreasonable demands will the angry hoard of dissenters come to some sort of resolution. The situation in the Middle East is far more complicated than my opponent seems to understand. In her mind, if only the US and Israel would stop defending themselves, only then would Palestine act reasonably and stop terrorizing. Appeasement has never worked, and it never will.

Though this speech was given for another reason other than the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, the argument he presents here is one and the same. Appeasement is not the solution... It never will be.

Finally, I want to thank my opponent for starting this debate. I had a lot of fun.
Debate Round No. 3
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by DPerrone99 8 years ago
DPerrone99
i must say i am a bit disappointed with how little this debate included analysis of U.S. foreign policy. Claims to the land are hardly relevant. American intervention, on the other hand, is very relevant.
Posted by ghegeman 8 years ago
ghegeman
well, while i'm in chicago and boston i will be pretty busy, so i am not sure, i read it over though, interesting stuff.
also i will probably not have much time what with my wonderful girlfriend and my charity work and all (ironically, i do this work through a christian church organization). anyways, i will see if i can throw you in somewhere
i am a little worried that ill start it, and then not have time to post a good argument, and that would just be unfair to both of us, as i am sure you want a good debate.

anyway, see if spiral will take you on if you want the debate right away, i am sure she will have many of the same points as i do. forgive my atrocious grammar and punctuation, i am in a rush
-g
Posted by SnoopyDaniels 8 years ago
SnoopyDaniels
Are you any closer to being able to accept my debate challenge?
Posted by ghegeman 8 years ago
ghegeman
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples

is also by Ilan Pappe.
Posted by SnoopyDaniels 8 years ago
SnoopyDaniels
I'll reissue it ASAP. It might take a while as I have to re-write the entire opening argument. I didn't save it under the assumption that you would accept before it expired, and that even if it did expire that I would still be able to access my opening argument...
Posted by ghegeman 8 years ago
ghegeman
err... when i say im busy, i mean im too busy to have deadlines, as unpredictable as my schedule is. plus, having to do an exhaustive analysis and refutation is different than posting a comment like this. With maxhayslip, it was easy to hammer out an argument. it is clear that arguming with you will take much more time and effort, and frankly im not sure how much time and effort i am willing to put in
Posted by ghegeman 8 years ago
ghegeman
…said they had to? Why are the Palestinians not allowed to live in the area where they identify most with?

"research is always in order, which IS WHY I SAID SO MYSELF very early on in this conversation"- you mean this?- "Nevertheless, there is always more to know..."- I would like to point out that Ralph Bunche is a personal hero of mine, he believed in bi-partisan negotiations, and so do I.

"What the heck are you doing on here debating people when you have no idea what you're talking about?"- haha, you said this after saying something completely ridiculous and ignorant.

"Ghegeman, can you please explain what "power politics" is?"- hmmm…, it is impossible to analyze political situations without understanding political terms, which is why I assumed you knew what power politics was when I started this comment war.

"Unfortunately, declaring that I need to do more research does NOT constitute an argument."- Well, as it seems to vex you so, I will refrain from this mantra. However, a constant reminder to do more research never hurt anyone.

"When was the last time the Israelis bombed something in the West Bank?"- Israel has bombed Palestine several times in this decade.

"I believe I was more than patient with you. I repeatedly pointed out that saying that I hadn't done enough research is NOT an argument, yet you continue to use it as one."- Yep, you told me that this was not an argument. I corrected historical facts. Bit of a difference in weight eh? Also, I wasn't trying to use it as an argument, but to actually get you to do more research.

"I'm not exactly sure what's wrong with generalizing. It's a very natural and effective way of assimilating and communicating information."- Teehee. Girls are stupid. Black people are in gangs. Chinese people are bad drivers. Yup, nothing wrong with generalizing.
Well, that's about it from me until you post another one of your comments.
Have a great Friday everyone,
-G
Posted by ghegeman 8 years ago
ghegeman
Kellyd way to pull out a great book on Snoopy.
Ilan Pappe's The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace not Apartheid
A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples (can't remember the author)

Are all books you should read. Go ahead and re-issue the debate as you are able. I probably should have started this week, but I am so busy lately.

Now to your little pseudo-argument:

"the next time the Arabs go back on their word and attack."- here is where you attacked the Arabs directly

"This despite the fact that Israel has never attempted to destroy its neighbors."- this is where you painted Israel as the victim.

"right about the Sinai campaign. Oh, wait, that was part of the Six-Day War"- this is where I had to correct you.

"I am not trying to incite debate, merely trying to clear up misinformation"- this is where I said that I didn't want a full out debate, just for you to do more research as arguments out of ignorance are quite simply annoying. You yourself get frustrated when you think I am ill informed.

"I have seen no indication of Israel's racism."- I threw this one in because it's humorous.

"You question cooljpk's claim that God will defend Israel. However, I defy anyone to explain the events that have transpired surrounding Israel in the last century without using the word 'miracle.'"- this is simply absurd. Although it would be nice to have an all mighty doer who makes things happen for you, it is actually quite infantile to assume someone else is responsible for our lives.

"Arab CONSPIRACY THEORIES? You have got to be kidding me. Have you heard of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Quaida (not how you spell al-Qaeda), and others..."- Hmm... No I haven't actually; you see I live in a cave in the Canadian Rockies. Remember that these are Extremist groups, and are considered terrorists. That does not mean that all Arabs are like this. True, the Arab states will not accept Palestinians into their own countries, but who...
Posted by kellyd 8 years ago
kellyd
No, but I will definately check it out.
Thanks.
Posted by SnoopyDaniels 8 years ago
SnoopyDaniels
Thanks kellyd, I will. Have you read "O Jerusalem" by Larry Collins?
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