The Instigator
Capitalistslave
Pro (for)
The Contender
nam21
Con (against)

In the Bible, God is the one who is evil and Satan is good.

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Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/4/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 459 times Debate No: 97620
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

Capitalistslave

Pro

Note: I am going to make this debate voted on by judges. To make it fair, my opponent should name up to 5 people to be judges in the comments(I'll then nominate these people), and I'll choose up to 5 as well(please note that if I can't find 5 people I want to judge, then I'll just choose the number of people I do find and nominate the equal amount for you of the ones you name, so it can be less than 5 each). If you accept this debate before asking for judges, then you forfeit your ability to choose who to be judges.

First, I wish to establish some morals with my opponent before we begin this debate. First off, do you agree that murder is wrong in every circumstance? I need both of us to agree on that in order for this debate to be worthwhile. Perhaps some exceptions would be the death penalty, self defense, and killing soldiers in a justified war, do you agree that killing outside of these instances is always wrong? Secondly, do you agree that deceiving people is wrong? Do you also agree that people should be held responsible for their own actions?

I wish to debate someone that can only say yes to the above. If you agree with all of those things, then let me know in the first round.

Here's the outline for how each round will be:
Round 1: Acceptance and agreement with the morals listed above
Round 2: Main argument
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4: More rebuttals/conclusion.
nam21

Con

For this debate I'll let you choose the judges. As this is not a religious issue, ie. the existence of God is not in question, but more of a moral/ethical one, I request you to choose judges that have had experience with such issues.

Now let's begin.

I believe that murder is wrong. Period. But I define "murder" as : The killing of one human being by another with malicious intent done with the prospect personal gain or gratification in mind. So war, assisted suicide, etc does not count.

Now for the second one. I agree that deceiving people is morally wrong only when it is done with malicious intent and for personal gain. Legally, lying is lying, deception must be punished. But in terms of morality, there are benfits to telling half truths and sugarcoating. For example, will you tell a kid that one of his parents is cheating, at a very young age which may scar him/her? Or will you wait till he grows up and matures into a person who can handle it? This type of deception is done with correct motivations and is not morally wrong. Sometimes it is wiser to tell a lie than to tell the truth. The keyword there is sometimes. In all other circumstances telling the truth is much more morally justified than lying.

And yes, I do agree that people should be held completely responsible for their words.

Let's debate.
Debate Round No. 1
Capitalistslave

Pro

I agree that assisted suicide is another time it's okay to kill someone. I just didn't think of every instance where it can be seen as morally alright.

The first evidence I shall present from the Bible that indicates God is evil, is the flood story. In Genesis 7, verse 4 it reads "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. " While it may be justified to kill off the adult humans, since they were evil according to the story, it is not justified to kill off all of the innocent babies/children and animals. There's no way babies or children could have been evil at this time, yet God killed all of them off.

Next, God gave an order to the Israelites to "attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." (1 Samuel 15:3) While, again it may be argued the adults were evil and causing harm to the Israelites, what were the children and infants and animals doing exactly? It was completely unnecessary to kill them.

In 2 Thessalonians 9-12 it reads "The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." Apparently god sends delusions to those who are sinful, which is deceptive and dishonest. How are the people who are sinful expected to ever repent if they are sent delusions to believe in lies from God himself?

God also completely destroyed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19: 24-25 reads "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. " Since he destroyed all of the inhabitants, once more, the babies and children must have been killed.

Then God also ordered Abraham to kill his own son, which seems to also indicate an evil god. God is also the one who hardened Pharoah's heart, it wasn't Satan: Exodus 10:1 "Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him"

In Exodus 21, there are many instances where God commands the death of people: for smiting their mother or father, steals and sells a person, curses their mother or father, and many other instances. I could easily point out many other instances where people are to be stoned to death or killed for disobeying God, but I'm sure you know of them, so I will not provide anymore since it would be tedious.

Finally, in 2 Kings 2, it reads: 23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. "Get out of here, baldy!" they said. "Get out of here, baldy!" He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys." In other words, prophet of god was being mocked, and he called a curse on them in the name of the Lord and God complied by sending two bears to maul all of the boys just for mocking the prophet.

Now, I'll go over some things Satan has done. The worst things he's done really is tempt Adam and Eve in the garden to eat of the fruit, which is debatable about whether that was a bad thing considering it gave them knowledge. Then while he did kill Job's family, he did so with approval from God. And finally, he tempted Jesus to do some things that are also debatable about whether they are bad, such as turn stones to bread and eat them, jump off of a building and have angels save him, etc. They certainly don't seem to be evil. Satan also is the one who rebelled against God. Considering I have pointed out many instances where God seems to have acted in an evil way, he's rebelling against evil. There may have been a few other things I've missed about what Satan has done, but I think they pale in comparison to what God has done.
nam21

Con

Okay let's establish something first.
In the bible we have 3 main groups God, Satan and the people. The events of the bible follow the ongoing war that God has with Satan.

First, lets go over the worst thing that Satan has done.

We are introduced to Satan in the Garden of Eden as he deceives Eve.
Quote- Genesis 3:1-5
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?"

The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

"You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
End Quote

That last sentence is a flat out lie. It is malicious deception, Satan had something to gain from it. He wanted to separate the people from God, and "capture" the Earth; we see in later verses that he is the ruler of this world.

You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. - Ephesisans 2:2
The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this world, will be cast out. - John 12:31

And also this sentence from Satan is a complete lie
"For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

First of all we clearly see that after the fruit is eaten they are nowhere near like God. They are still just humans. Also they ALREADY knew what was good and evil. They obeyed God and hesitated to go behind his back because they knew that it was wrong.
Just after they ate the fruit this happened:
"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked"

They did not get the knowledge of good and evil, they already had that, they got shame, guilt, fear and condemnation. The tree of the Knowledge of good and evil gave them the knowledge of the consequences of evil actions, the concept of punishments was introduced. They felt shame because they knew that their reproductive organs could be used to commit acts of sexual immorality (even though there were no other humans - this knowledge was probably exclusively given by the fruit).

Fear followed
"He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."

Then as we know God cursed them because sin must be punished.
And also God was telling the truth
"You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die."

We see in later books that death is the curse of sin is death without sin humans could have lived forever. Also hell is referred to as the "second death". So yes humans did indeed die when the fruit was eaten.

"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars " their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."- Revelation 21:8

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."- Romans 6:23

So what have we learnt. Satan used deception to drive a rift between God and man, caused billions of people to be cursed with death, shame, fear, guilt and condemnation and the prospect of hell all in an attempt to gain power and win a war with a creator whose only goal was to create a beautiful, happy civilization. And, judging by the conversation that Satan had with Eve, he knew what would happen and he showed no regret. This is the epitome of evil.

But God, even after getting stabbed in the back like that, tried to redeem humanity by sending his son to save them. Satan never gave a damn about the well being of humans but God cared, that is what makes him good.

Your move Pro.
Debate Round No. 2
Capitalistslave

Pro

First, I'd like to point out my opponent has been completely quiet on the evil actions I pointed out that God did in the Bible. Therefore it is still legitimate to claim God is evil for my purposes in this argument. My opponent argued near the end that Satan caused a rift between man and God, but if God is evil, which my opponent has not argued against, wouldn't that be a good thing? If Satan tries to make man rebel against God, and God has done this many evil actions that I pointed out previously, then Satan is encouraging people to rebel against evil.

My opponent claims Adam and Eve already had knowledge of good and evil, however, if this was true, why was it called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, even by God himself, if the tree didn't give them that knowledge? Was God being deceptive again and the tree really wasn't about the knowledge of Good and Evil? My opponent claims it caused them to feel remorse, sorrow, etc, while this is true, it also gave them a deeper appreciation of happiness, gratitude, etc. For how can we fully appreciate the good without experiencing the bad emotions? What Satan did here was allow them to experience bad emotions and that then allowed them to better appreciate the good.

Secondly, my opponent makes it out into a bad thing for someone to die, as they point out that the consequence of eating from the tree is death. However, how would anyone ever get back to heaven unless they were to die? Isn't this a necessary step? If it wasn't for Satan, man would never be with God again, or Satan for that matter since I'm arguing Satan is the good one.

As for the second death my opponent speaks of, since I established that God is the evil one and my opponent hasn't argued against that, then we can conclude that this second death is likely not a bad thing. Since God is evil, the view of what happens in the after-life would be skewed. Of course the one who is evil would want to make it seem like it's a terrible thing not to get into heaven. Many Christians believe that in Heaven we will be serving God, is that not something that an evil person would want? Servants and slaves? In Satan's plan, we are essentially given more freedom. The only source we have for what Hell or the second death is like is from God himself, who I established is evil. Where is Satan's account of what the second death is like? We can't conclude that it's a bad thing unless we hear from both sides or an objective source.

All terrible things about Satan are said either from God, or from God's prophets/apostles. There is no actual record of Satan doing anything that would indicate he is the many terrible things God claims he is though. There is really nothing evil to find about Satan that I know of. Perhaps my opponent can find something, but I doubt it.
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Heirio 1 year ago
Heirio
This looks very interesting.
Posted by Sovcody2 1 year ago
Sovcody2
I can be a judge, if necessary, I'm an atheist so I have no religious bias in this debate.
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