The Instigator
Lexus
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Danielle
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

In the United States, private ownership of handguns ought to be banned.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Danielle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2016 Category: Miscellaneous
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 542 times Debate No: 91503
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

Lexus

Pro

Resolved: In the United States, private ownership of handguns ought to be banned.

I reserve the right to clarify any terms.

First round acceptance.

The only thing shared is our love of fine wine.
Danielle

Con

On the contrary, we might also share a love of fine women...

Either way, I look forward to an interesting discussion. Thanks for the challenge.
Debate Round No. 1
Lexus

Pro

What if I told you that the Gods are dead? Would you have tears well up in your eyes? Would they be of happiness or sadness, for now you are released from their grip on your life?
Now, what if I told you that you and I - Danielle and Lexus, lowliers from an obscure debate website - have killed them? You wouldn't believe me, you'd have to be able to remember what we have done together to kill them, but it was all "a dream".

And what if I told you that the Gods came back, just as strong -- maybe even stronger -- than before. Surely, you'd lose your mind.


***

You, Danielle, say to me, echoing the Flobots:
  • "It must have been a dream but it felt so real
  • Saw the wounds, heard the screams, thought about your last meal
  • How we ate like kings, how you led us all in grace
  • How nobody had forseen what would soon take place
  • And when everything went down
  • The silence you left was the strangest sound
  • Dangerous town but we all felt safe
  • Cause we knew that you slept with the angels now
  • Rumors keep coming in
  • A few thousand missing you just like me
  • People keep running into you
  • I've got a feeling that you might be alive"
"Danielle," I say, "it wasn't a dream - out took we our guns and shot them. Borges described what had happened long before it happened; he was the Nostrodomus of his day." I chuckle. Borges. He reminds me of Bataille. Maybe it was his eyes and their stories. "He describes it perfectly -- he says the following quote:
  • ... they were cunning, ignorant and cruel like old beasts of prey and that, if we let ourselves be overcome by fear or piety, they would finally destroy us. We took out our heavy revolvers (all of a sudden there were revolvers ... ) and joyfully killed the Gods.

Do you not remember, Danielle? What we had done to kill the Gods? What we had to do to kill the Gods, even as we were told of what it all meant?"

"What does it all mean?" you say. Many ask the same and find an answer in the Gods, where do we look now? We look to ourselves.

***

"Did we really kill the Gods, if we still know?" you ask.

"What does that mean?"

Silence.

***
Some years later.

"Danielle --" I motion you to come over. It's a picture of the day we killed the Gods, and the day we gave up our harnesses. We moved from a Sun of light to one of malediction. "I don't want you to forget the day we killed the Gods. We gave up all investment in a higher order that day."


"Did we?" you say. Always asking questions and never seeming to find the answers. Maybe the answers were the higher power that we should have given up our investment in, not the Gods that represented the answers. Maybe you did remember taking out the revolver, but you don't want to invest in a higher truth.

"Ever since that day, you've been asking questions that never make sense ... why?" I need to know. I have to know, it's been bothering me for years.

You look to me. I look to you. Silence, we all know there is little affirmation in it. Or do we know? I don't.

You begin softly:

  • "We begin with the end
  • I stand amid the roar
  • Of a surf-tormented shore,
  • And I hold within my hand
  • Grains of the golden sand —
  • How few! yet how they creep
  • Through my fingers to the deep,
  • While I weep — while I weep!
  • O God! Can I not grasp
  • Them with a tighter clasp?
  • O God! can I not save
  • One from the pitiless wave?
  • Is all that we see or seem
  • But a dream within a dream?"
***
The Debate

We have moved on from normal Gods to ones that are secular. Ones that have names and round numbers, specific speech times and lack of unknowing qualities. But the old Gods were never unknown, we knew them full well; and we know our own Gods full well, with prepackaged tubs filled with evidence that brings us no closer to anything.

The current Gods, are they worse than the past ones? Maybe, maybe not. Do they shoot down lightning? They do not. But did the old ones demand servility, waking at 4 AM to talk for days about things that you won't remember, just remember the numbers? They did not. I don't want to know, I can't know anything. "It’s really the object of the laughter, or the object of the tears, that suppresses thought, that takes all knowledge away from us" says one smart guy, but he's too smart for his own good, does he worship his own God? Maybe. Probably. Okay, he has to - otherwise he wouldn't make books.

We ban handguns, not for the sake of the handguns, but for the sake of ourselves. We move from God to God, service to service, and each step takes us further away from living life as it was. We still worship a God, except now we don't speak. Danielle, do you remember when we would walk down the beach together and talk about waking up the next day, looking to our future? I remember. But now we can't do that, because the next day is debate after debate, knowledge creation after knowledge creation, and an ultimate denial of common humanity.

If we kill this God, then we move to another, and I can't have anything else taken from me. First it was security in the world; which I regained at the loss of dreams. Or did I? Or did we, Danielle? Did we become more safe, now that we worship an institution more than we worship our own bodies?

What I mean by all of this is, we have moved from a monolithic idea of the Gods and have moved to another, just as bad, maybe worse, maybe better, but we can't hedge our bets. Remove our access to guns and make sure we can't kill this God, because the next one may remove our own living. And I want to live with you, Danielle. I wanted to dream with you, but what is dreaming without living? I don't know, and I'd rather not know.
Danielle

Con

Pro begins, "What if I told you that the Gods are dead? Would you have tears well up in your eyes?"

Nay. I would wonder how the gods have died, and if they had been killed. Then I would be grateful that I, Danielle, have a gun to protect myself from certain kinds of death - perhaps the kind of death that was responsible for the death of the gods.

Indeed, Pro goes on to confirm (or allege) that the god's have been killed by himself and supposedly yours truly.

So I, Danielle, say to Pro:

Remember, remember, that day with whomever
Their gunpowder, treason and plot
We survived that day and made it away
How did that go? I know you forgot
Someone drew their gun, you started to run
But I drew mine even faster
So I shot them to pieces
Til they were wasted like feces
And their plan failed into disaster

---

In the "Debate" portion of this debate, Pro goes into a schizophrenic albeit seemingly nihilist existential recollection about our supposed interaction on the beach. I'd like to remind Pro that when he saw only one set of footprints there in the sand, it was then that I carried him.

http://www.caradocmission.org...

Pro says we should ban handguns "for the sake of ourselves." He suggests they do not make us any more safe. However criminals have admitted that they would not go after someone who is armed vs. someone who is unarmed for obvious reasons. As for the "safety" of potential self-harm, one's life is their property just as their guns are their property, and people are free to put themselves at risk if they so choose.

Studies show that (the attempt at) eliminating guns does not reduce gun violence - assuming that's even possible.

http://www.bostonmagazine.com...

But of course criminals (or those interested in killing to answer life's existential questions about our conscience experience, death or the meaning of existence -- someone like Pro for example) can continue to attain guns illegally or through black markets, even if the USFG attempted to ban guns.

http://www.cnsnews.com...

So I say to Pro:

Stop trying to take away my freedom
Don't want your rights? Then you concede 'em

If my gun is not used for aggression
Then I have a right to its possession

There is no need for your alarm
If I don't use my gun for harm

And if I do, go after me
And not every person's liberty
Debate Round No. 2
Lexus

Pro

Dearest Danielle,
Our time together is running out -- when the timer on this debate ends, we no longer have power over what will happen next, only the people voting do. While the Gods we subscribe to in the current day are bad, we simply don't know what Gods will come next to rule over us -- will they be like the old ones, and require paying tithes in their name, or will they be the same as todays' with an erasure of our dreams and our memories (we can already see their erasing of memories by you forgetting the day I proposed to you on the beach).

The affirmative is an act of willful resistance against any change to the system of debate -- I show you that we have lost a lot of things from the death of the original Gods and the subscription to the new Gods, as a cautionary tale against trying to make any new ones. I describe the situation extremely clearly in the affirmative speech by talking to you about how I had regained my security at the loss of what had made me fundamentally human -- and that is the love that we had shared together before the days of the new God.

First, we lost security with the ultimate Gods that had ruled over us for millenia; we had no power over our own lives, and often times people that spoke against the Gods were smitten with lightning. However, we gained (or did we?) our security back, but at the price of our common humanity and our love for each other -- we lost our remembrance and our hope, because all that we do is subscribe to a belief that the Debate that we are having somehow has meaning.

Danielle, you may not believe me when I say this, but the negative speech is the ultimate act of servitude to the new Gods - your appeal to the resolution as the ultimate decider of what we are ignores the fact that we are only human insofar as we are loving. Your appeal to the out-of-round implications of this Debate make this Debate worthless - there is nothing beyond the room that we are communicating within that is changed. We can only get rid of guns within this room, and the reason that we ought to do so is to prevent the death of the new Gods, to preserve at the very least our biological life.

I will not respond to the individual studies; they may be true, I don't know, I don't want to give credence to any type of God, even if it is the one that I am saving. I don't have any faith that the negative intrinsically matters, whereas I am only believing that I am trying to save us both.

Danielle, remember that I am trying to save you. If you keep your guns inside this room, then when the Gods do something you don't like (seeing the carnations, their movements) you will shoot them, just as we had done so together before. We must remove the guns to save the Gods, because whether they are presently good or bad doesn't matter, the future holds no assurances of being good.

This is a love story that starts with me holding your hand on the beach, saying I love you, and you forgetting it the next day. I remember us going to the diner together, you ordering just a small shake, and me mozarella sticks -- that pretty much sums up what life was like before we killed the Gods and they new ones made you forget. Do you remember the night that we had become engaged, and the springs on the bed that had been broken from so much use? I do, but only because you were there -- it was special, Danielle.

***



Disorganization, forging nations of papers predestinating superhero capers
Light sabers my neighbors consist of
Mint cookies bent books keys three tennis balls
Peanut butter a Japanese chicken clock and when it falls
On eight thirty I'm hurting it's early and my hair is dirty
Teeth as if beneath a highlighter, just not pearly
Peeling arm hairs harm their relation to the band-aid
The mucus formation is man made
I plan eight minutes more of sleep
I'm in it snoring deep
Beep beep beep
When again it roars I keep my eyelids analogous to a successful venus-fly trap
Telling my left brain it's Saturday well he must buy that
Waking up again I look around and find another year has passed
We're discovering
At last near a lover not so fast
Here I'm hovering to make time slow down go back to last year
We'll meet again but the characters are never gonna be the same that's clear
I wanna see your name hand written on a letter whether this is planned or not
Life keeps getting better but still I just don't understand a lot
I'm growing up and up up out out damn this spot's
Similar to a ball I saw in a mall it expands and knocks me off course
Of course that's just how it goes
The farther I walk from my house the more my world grows
So I froze
Thinking bout being four years old I'm missing the
Days when I was with everyone I knew just around the Christmas tree
Now there's so many people and so many places and so many faces that the only way
That I could ever get you all together would be to die
So you could ask what's the point of making friends
You just end up forsaking them
Well god's given me life, so I'm living
That's why I went to the bookstore
To look for a Zodiac sign book
Quick, search, find, look
Wrote it down in my rhyme book
To check and see if we're compatible I had to pull back my left arm
It said a libra plus another one is a double dose of charm

Time this is your time this is your time this is your brain
(never known such intensity)
Fine this is your line this is your mind this is your brain
(now a lot of radio songs make sense to me)

How unlikely I found someone to soothe my psyche so write me cause you make me wanna
Pull a nike words on the tip of my tongue and it might be urge in my hips and I'm sprung
Like bike seats when you spoke you turned my wheels now I can't handle the breaks
Project images pure no scandalous fakes I could light up the candle and baste your bare
Body wax 'til you make the same noise pamela makes
There's something smack dab in the center I lack the vocab to enter a discussion of excactly
What makes you a WINNER hot SPRINGS roommates FALL into place SUMMER too
Soon all in the case of I wonder who knows what goes up under two close cut birthday
Twins I just can't seem to pin down why it relates to inside her I spider cause she's fly
Recognize a certain sigh that I heard windows open curtains tied and the birds saying this
Is the dawn I thought about the places my kisses had gone given self quizzes on the
Course of events every resource sent my brainwaves to the same thought content things
That had mattered before were laughable shattered at the door give it autobiographical
Point of pivot week and the weekend before I wanted power but all that changed in an
Hour moving over worlds when I met my dream lover the clover girls fell off the magazine
Covers I had to seem utterly thrilled cause I was goofy expression on my grill dumbstruck I
Was buzzed off of disbelief even though I thought we might no one ever got me quite so
Right as the night of your favorite thing conversation and laughter and the night after and
The night after damn I like have to see you now it's worth it man... perfect

Time this is your time this is your time this is your brain (this is my)
Fine this is your line this is your mind this is your brain (this is my)
Time this is your time this is your time this is your brain (this is my)
Fine this is your line this is your mind this is your brain (this is my)

This is my heart this is the part one asleep one awake back to back in the dark
(In the night there's two in the light only one of us will remain)

I'm in denial I can't believe it was all just a trial now I'm writing this song in asylum I
Haven't sen you in a while one side left now I gotta walk single file come back soon
Please even in a full classroom if you're not there then it feels like a vacuum in fact you
Never really heard me attack you with every little word about what makes me attract to
The only girl I every wanna kiss ever throw rice with you're a priceless treasure a living
Piece of bliss and pleasure so fvck this weather whatever if I have to stop rapping I'm a
Break into tears my head's ringing from the noises that you make in my ears so I'm stuck
Now waiting a year don't give a fvck how I struck out what for goodness sake I'm here
Father time patricide need you like an artery hoping that you cried a fraction as hard as me
Relax and just pardon the expression but I love you - no I love attraction, or I love my own
Reaction added one to my self and I couldn't help melting to nothing, subtraction
Been around the world been another year
I recover thoroughly And now I'm here
Like a mother pearl layer top of layer
Met another girl here comes the fear and the sheer joy
And the sheer bliss floating through the universe on a kiss
Lips slipping and I'm tripping gripping dripping doubt
Flipping out over just this? And I stay
Calm recite this song listen
Second verse connects fittin'
Her with you and you with me and third verse needs remixing
I need a fifth one to say I keep meeting you under different conditions
Last one made my heart smart sh!t I wanna start right with this one
Now I'm with you, now I miss you, now I don't know when I'm gonna see you
And I'd like to and I'd love to and I maybe even wanna be you
So I'm thankful and I'm spiteful in the night pulling at you tight
Sank fully into the shadow you left recall
The strength of your bad breath
And the smell of sweat, bet another fella gets jealous me well it's not yet
I'd picture maybe we could get together in another place, another time signature
Hey hope you didn't mind this is your
Face painted in my rhyme
This is yours, this is yours... this is mine
This is yours this is yours this is mine
(Whatever you attach to is what you become)
(Now I don't know when I'm gonna see you)
This is yours this is yours this is mine
(One plus one double horizontal line one)
(And I maybe even wanna be you)


***

Save yourself and put away your guns, and put together our hearts.

xoxo,
Lexus.
Danielle

Con

Surely, like me, the audience is quite awed
At how my opponent keeps talking 'bout gods
What does this have to do with guns being outlawed?
If Pro makes 1 decent point I might stop to applaud

This country values freedom and our symbol's an eagle
Nobody is equal so our guns should stay legal
It's our right to fight back if we have to bear arms
But Pro wants to leave us easy to harm

Of course the 2nd amendment should be protected
Cuz people with guns are feared and respected
Anyone who wants a gun will find a way to get it
Force them to the black market and you'll one day regret it

If hand guns are banned, their sale won't be regulated
Any crazy who wants one can buy it and take it
Legalization requires some background checks
Criminalization inspires harmful effects

My gun is my property -
I'm sorry Pro doesn't understand
But enough of this guy's snobbery
He'll have to pry it from my hand
Debate Round No. 3
Lexus

Pro

I have two poems. I will let you unpack the meaning in each of them, but please, allow yourself to see a meaning deeper than surface.

***
Yeats

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;

Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi

Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

***
Borges

Not a star will remain in the night.

The night itself will not remain.

I will die and with me the sum

Of the intolerable universe.

I’ll erase the pyramids, the coins,

The continents and all the faces.

I’ll erase the accumulated past.

I’ll make dust of history, dust of dust.

Now I gaze at the last sunset.

I am listening to the last bird.

I bequeath nothingness to no-one.

Danielle

Con

If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.
-- Dalai Lama XIV

Please extend my arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by brant.merrell 6 months ago
brant.merrell
I think Apollo won this debate.
Posted by Lexus 6 months ago
Lexus
you're so blessed tejretics
Posted by tejretics 6 months ago
tejretics
Disclaimer: Lexus asked me to vote on this debate; her doing so did not affect my vote.
Posted by tejretics 6 months ago
tejretics
This debate is... wow.
Posted by Lexus 6 months ago
Lexus
xoxo
Posted by Kescarte_DeJudica 6 months ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
Never mind, let Danielle have it. After all, she was here first.
Posted by Danielle 6 months ago
Danielle
In that case, I'll accept!
Posted by Kescarte_DeJudica 6 months ago
Kescarte_DeJudica
I'll accept the debate, if you wish.
Posted by Lexus 6 months ago
Lexus
double acceptance = 1 + 1 = di-singularity = 2*0 = 0 = not wanting acceptance.

Danielle :( rude
Posted by Danielle 6 months ago
Danielle
I'll accept.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by tejretics 6 months ago
tejretics
LexusDanielleTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm sure there will be some -- most, in fact -- judges who will criticize this format of debate as being unpersuasive (specifically, Lexus's format). To some extent, I agree, since Pro's argument is often incomprehensible. But I have to say, Con handled the debate excellently... she maintained the deep, poetic format of the debate and still managed to demonstrate that (1) guns don't increase crime and (2) having guns is a liberty. Pro says guns are used to kill gods, but doesn't explain that at all, and doesn't show that a gun ban will solve for killing gods. Pro doesn't explain what the God of the present is either. So Con wins that the only way Pro will ever gain Con's gun is to "pry it" from her hand (i.e. possession of handguns is a liberty with no reason to be taken away). Interesting format - while it wasn't persuasive, it was definitely fun to read. Con wins. Addendum: I appreciate that Con's poems were kept simple to understand and short; they were effective that way.