The Instigator
KingYosef
Pro (for)
Losing
31 Points
The Contender
renegade_rightie
Con (against)
Winning
33 Points

In the battle to overcome terrorism, Islam is not the enemy, ignorance is.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/26/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,348 times Debate No: 1042
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (22)

 

KingYosef

Pro

I am sick of reading debate topics claiming that islam is a "cult" or it is the religion of evil. It angers me that the country I love is full of such blind and ignorant people. When will America wake up and realize that this islam/terrorist problem was created by the "we are America, we know best" view. A quote from an Iraqi refugee, "We refuse to choose between Islamic fundamentalism and American imperialism." can best sum up my stance. There are two reasons I can think of for people making these absurd statements about Islam, either they are uneducated (i pray), or they are intelligent thoughtful people who somehow manage to let fear blind them into arrogance. With this Islam is evil mentality, we will never win the war on terrorism. 9/11 is our fault, and it is about time we base our foreign policies on that notion.

For those of you who were wondering, I am not muslim.
renegade_rightie

Con

renegade_rightie forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
KingYosef

Pro

guess he never showed up, anybody else want to debate this topic?

comment below if you want to debate
renegade_rightie

Con

You're right. Ignorance is the enemy. Though not in the same manner you speak of.

The only possible way you could believe in your argument is if you were truly ignorant of what Islam represents. It is a deification of 7th Century Arabian paganism, founded by a murderous warlord who now almost 1400 years since his death still somehow corrupts innocent minds into thinking that it is acceptable to explode Jewish schoolbuses and behead Russian schoolchildren while their parents watch. After all, Allah commands it. It is pleasing to Him, for He is merciful. Allahu akbar.

I don't understand how a "religion of peace" could be founded by a pagan warlord who made a career out of chopping people's heads off.

Don't believe that Islam has an intrinsic violent component?

Qur'an 3:56 "As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them."
Qur'an 5:51 "Muslims, do not make friends with any but your own people."
Qur'an 5:72 "They are surely infidels who say; ‘God is the Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary."
Qur'an 8:12 cp. 8:60 "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them"
Qur'an 2:191 "...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them"
Qur'an 2:193 "And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah"
Qur'an 22:19-22 "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" "for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods"
Qur'an 48:13 Those who "believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!"
Qur'an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."
Qur'an 8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.'"
Qur'an 8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."
Qur'an 8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Qur'an 8:60 "Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah's Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you."
Qur'an 8:7 "Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.'"
Qur'an 4:101 "The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe."

There is no analogy between Judeo-Christianity and Islam. To believe as such is to be ignorant of the fundamental theological differences between Judaism/Christianity and Islam. While Jews and Christians have had their low points (and I'm perfectly willing to admit that there have been many Christian and Jewish terrorists in history), the evil activities of these people were not commanded by ideology. The Christian Bible did not command the Spanish Inquisition, for example. However, the Qur'an explicitly, in at least 110 particular instances, some of which I've outline above, does command jihad. It is an absolution for devout Muslims.

Allow me to clarify. Muslims are not necessarily the enemy, but Islam is. How does that make sense? Well, I know plenty of Muslims that do not believe in killing infidels. I'm friends with quite a few Muslims who are perfectly content with me being Christian and who have no intention of killing me for it. But, having read the Qur'an in its entirety myself, I am convinced that their quality as peaceful human beings is not BECAUSE of Islam, but rather, IN SPITE of it.

Let's be serious here. Islam insists that the Qur'an is the inviolable Word of God, and that to interpret it in any way beyond its literal meaning is to mess with the Word of God itself. That means anyone who interprets the following:

Qur'an 8:12 cp. 8:60 "Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them"

...to mean anything other than full-out jihad is basically not being a true Muslim, according to many schools of Muslim thought. Peaceful Muslims are peaceful in spite of what Islam tells them to do.

By no means is Christianity perfect, but at the very least Christianity does not encourage, advocate, command or require violence in the name of God.

Back to your argument. You say Islam is not the enemy? Perhaps Muslims are not the enemy. At least, not all of them. There are plenty of good Muslims out there. But in the words of Ayan Hirsi Ali (a female member of Dutch Parliament, a former Muslim-turned-atheist and a victim of the abomination known as Female Genital Mutilation and arranged marriage), "When considered not as a religion but instead considered strictly as a set of ideals and a code of conduct, Islam, as a set of ideals, is INCOMPATABLE WITH CIVIL SOCIETY AND DEMOCRACY."

A former Muslim said that. Islam, as a set of *ideals*, is incompatable with civil society.

This war on terror is not a war of civilizations. It is a war about CIVILIZATION. We can either fight to defend a way of life which advocates liberal pluralist democracy, the equality of women, gay rights, RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE. Or we can surrender to an ideology which advocates barbaric misogyny, keeping little girls out of school, cutting off their clitorises, blowing up Jews and Christians, making religious law the absolute law of the land, and suppressing free speech, freedom of religion and free thought.

Ya know all those things we've fought for/are fighting for in America, like the right of women to have jobs, and the rights of gay people to not be persecuted? And, oh yeah, that thing we like, were founded upon, ya know, the right to choose which religion to follow? When Islam takes over, THOSE THINGS WILL BE DEAD.

The only ignorance here is the ignorance which has put a veil of misunderstanding, blind acceptance and apathy over your eyes and has led you to believe that the world will be the same whether or not we go to war to defend Democracy against Terror.

Call me intolerant. I hear it a lot. It doesn't bother me anymore, because I know in my soul that it is wrong to tolerate the intolerance that Islam preaches and stirs up in (many of) its followers. As columnist Mark Steyn once remarked, "We are now a society that is so afraid to appear intolerant, that it tolerates intolerance." Well, not me.

I'll probably lose this debate because voters will try to pin me as an intolerant and bigoted Islamophobe. So be it. I'm willing to piss off a few people now if it means that someday my children can choose to worship whomever they please, and so someday my daughters can show their ankles in public without being stoned to death, and so someday America will still be a country where a Jewish child and a Hindu man and an Atheist woman will still be able to pursue life, liberty and happiness, instead of being forced to pursue infidels in the name of a murderous, intolerant and barbaric ideology.

Your way of life is at stake. How ignorant will you choose to be? Will you continue to sit back while Islam colonizes and destroys everything that is holy in Western Civilization? Or will you finally wake up and smell the Jihad?

I hope for the sake of my children and yours, you will chose the latter option and fight this war on terror, before there is no peace left in this world and nothing good left to fight for.
Debate Round No. 2
KingYosef

Pro

I would first Like to adress how it is our fault.

In 1979, during the Soviet-Afghan War, Osama Bin Laden was recruited by the CIA (covert)to fight Soviet invaders. The war, was publically called a "jihad" by the muslims involved in protecting afghanistan. the "jihad" was supported by the United States. CIA sponsored guerilla training for recruits, was integrated with the teachings of Islam. The Pakistan's Inter-services intelligence served as the middleman between the CIA and the islamic soldiers. Through doing this, the U.S. was able to hide their main objective, which was using Islamic troops to defeat the Soviet Union. CIA's Milton Beardman confirmed that Osama Bin Laden was not aware of the role he was playing on behalf of Washington. "Neither I, nor my brothers saw the evidence of American help" Bin Laden is qouted as saying. These Islam warriors were motivated by nationalism, and religion, yet they were being tricked into fighting for the benifit of the United States. With the backing of the CIA, and massive amounts of US military aid, the Pakistani ISI became a tremendous force, composed of 150,000 Afgani and Pakastani Millitants. With their new power, they became more agressive. When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1980 (war started in pakistan), The CIA and the ISI chief both agreed to decieve the world, they publically vouched for negotiating a settlement, while privatly agreeing that military escalation would be the best course. To gain funds for military operations, the U.S. and the CIA turned its heads and allowed the Drug trade, which they had been fighting, to resume. what was once a regional drug hotspot, become the the number one supplier to the United States, the Pakastani Herion-addict population went from almost none in 1979, to 1.2 million in 1985. All of this due to the U.S. interest of wiping out the Soviet Union.
After the cold war, the ISI's extensive intelligence military-network was not dismantled, the CIA continued to support the Islamic "jihad" out of Pakistan. Despite its Anti-american idealogy, Islamic fundamentalism was serving Washington's strategic interests in the former Soviet Union. In 1989, the civil war in Afghanistan continued, the Taliban were being supported by the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Islam (JUI), which in 1993, would establish connections with the ISI (the U.S. funded and trained Islamic coalition). in 1995, the Taliban was given all the training camps. At this point, the Taliban and the ISI were basically indistingushable.
In 1996, Osama Bin Laden attended a summit led by rebels Shamil Basayev and Al Khattab (both trained in CIA sponsered camps during the war). the summit was sponsered by HizbAllah, in which they planned a war in Chechnya. Despite the U.S. condemnation of Islamic terrorism, the eventual beneficiaries of the Chechen war are the American oil conglomerates, vying for control of oil in the Caspian sea.

So why did Osama Bin Laden kill innocent people on 9/11? Because the United States manipulated and used him and his people like they were an expandable resource. The U.S. used them to fight a war for us secretly, they thought they were dying for a cause, but that cause was U.S. gain. then we left the mess for him and his people to clean up. Then in the Gulf War, we go and ride tanks all over his homeland, with his people dying, from mortars and stray missles, and we won't even aknowledge him, yet 6 years later, he inadverntally, helps the U.S. again, we turned the other way, he got us oil.

I bet you were ignorrant to that.

now for the Qu'ran's intrinsic violent component. English and Arabic are intrinsically different languages. I Speak fluent English, and enough Arabic to get by when i go to Syria (where my family is from). Trying to translate Arabic into English on paper is something my father, who is fluent in both languages won't even give thought to doing. this leaves room confussion among translators.

but surely not enough confuesion to explain the passages you show such as...

Qur'an 3:56 "As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them."

Right??

Wrong, Relgious texts must not be viewed as static language, I.e. black and white. therefore, as taught in practical translation classes throughout the world, it is essentially the verbalized expression of an author's intention as understood by the translator as a reader. Who then rewrites it in another language for a someone to read who exists in a different culture. F.V. Griefenhagen, a man who has spent his life studing the history of english translations of the Qur'an comes to a crucial conclusion in his research:

"Thus, by the 20th century, the translation of the Qur'an into English became the locus of power struggles, not only between Islam and West, but also between orthodox groups within Islam and heterodox offshoots."

Americans have a preconcived notion of what they want to see and here, I am amazed that you find a translation of the Qur'an as suffiecnet evidence to support your claim, without even giving though to western bias towards Islam.

that, my friend, is iggnorance.

"There is no analogy between Judeo-Christianity and Islam."

Al-Hajj 22:40 says:

"........For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty."

Allah is worshiped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike, don't be so ignorant its just another word for God....The God.

Also for another analogy, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all started in Juerusulum.

"the evil activities of these people were not commanded by ideology. The Christian Bible did not command the Spanish Inquisition, for example."

The Qur'an, Just as the Torah or the Bible, Is not meant to be taken literally, In the bible there is talk about things like slaves and killing and mandates that call for killing (if someone sleeps with your wife or stuff like that.) The radicals interpert as they want, as we christians have done in the past to best suit our needs. Have you forgotten the Crusades? you say that islam persists that the Qur'an is the involiable word of good, well the bible has been around for 500 years longer, and we are just getting the hint that it isn't, so they got time.

"The only ignorance here is the ignorance which has put a veil of misunderstanding, blind acceptance and apathy over your eyes and has led you to believe that the world will be the same whether or not we go to war to defend Democracy against Terror."

You misunderstand my stance. I am a Christian Arab, if you saw me on the street, I look more german than anything. I have spent over a year of my life in Syria, and I know these people. Winning is dying, losing is surrendering. They hate us because they know we think we are better then them as people. We still need soldiers over there, but we can't kill or deport to guantanamo every terrorist we catch, that doesn't work, it empowers them. Saudi Arabia has the solution. Caught terrorists or fundamentalists are brought to a prison, once inside, it looks like a resort. they go to islam classes and most importantly have fun and are shown warmth and compassion, when americans visit, the converse and laugh, the same people that hated America with all there heart maybe 200 days before. it has been in operation for 2 years, with over 700 prisoners released into soceity, none of them have gone back to their old ways. that is the first step, the second is to let the U.N. take a center stage in the middle east, they can do the same thing we do, but with better results, since they are much less hated then we are, though still hated none the less.

I am out of room, oh well.
renegade_rightie

Con

renegade_rightie forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
you bet I will

when I have some time

busying selling solar and saving the world for now

SOLARMAN

here is the daily grind of the evil death cult

Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace

1/14/2008 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Three children are among eleven killed in a bombing by Islamic militants outside a textile factory.
1/14/2008 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - Islamists ambush and kill eight local soldiers in a vicious attack that leaves them beheaded, shot or blasted to death.
1/14/2008 (Kabul, Afghanistan) - Religious extremists attack a hotel with suicide vests and machine-guns, managing to kill six people in the lobby.
1/13/2008 (Medea, Algeria) - Islamic fundamentalists machine-gun three kids to death as they are gathering chestnust.
1/13/2008 (Yala, Thailand) - Islamic gunmen shoot a man in the back of the head as he is watching television.
1/12/2008 (Baidoa, Somalia) - Two Red Crescent workers are killed by suspected members of an Islamic militia.
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
debate you on what? that Islam is not a death cult? i'll debate you on anything you want to solar. send me the challenge and we'll do it.
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Hey Socialist

Why dont you debate me on any of these subjects rather than just spew your tripe here in the comments?

SOLARMAN
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
Solarman I don't recall being part of Stalin's cabinet, being in China at all for Mao, or being involved in any murder at all. Not to mention at no point in time have I ever supported in any fashion any terrorist organization. Your response was befitting a man of little intelligence. Instead of issuing a rebuttal, you decided to turn to name calling and referencing neo-con propaganda to further your point. It is obvious through your response that you have nothing meaningful to bring to the topic. Its through your ignorance and people who subscribe to your beliefs that we have found ourselves in these problems. Instead of using INTELLIGENT dialog people running this country decided to pick up your mentality of misinformation, name calling and fear rousing. And next time you attempt to state, "And none of you ISLAMIC TERROR APOLOGISTS can do anything to REFUTE anything I say you merely ATTACK ME, and try and discredit the detailed and scholarly sources that I use Nice try COMMIE" realize that I SERVED in the military and witnessed first hand whats going on. I am against the terrorist and have actually been part of combating them. I wonder how much you have done? You should use your own advice and deal with people on the issues, not as you like to say, "attack" people. You might want to also try using links to non-partisan sites for more credibility.
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
You definitely post a lot of stuff everywhere....
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
I'm still trying to decide whether you are the funniest or lamest devil's advocate I have ever met....
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
for those who want to know

read in detail

www.prophetofdoom.net

and www.jihadwatch.com

and www.faithfreedom.org

and many others who will tell you the TRUTH

these commie terrorist sympathizers can attack me all they want

I GOT PLENTY MORE FOR EM!

SOLARMAN
Posted by Solarman1969 9 years ago
Solarman1969
Hey socialist

with your COMMIE PARTY affiliation

Im sure we can trust YOU, and your ilk, who have MURDERED over 100 million + in the 20th century, to make ANY comments regarding the threat that Islamic fascists are posing to the world

you and your ilk are their ALLIES- you are EVIL and want to end freedom together

All I needed to know about ISLAM I learned on 9/11

And none of you ISLAMIC TERROR APOLOGISTS can do anything to REFUTE anything I say

you merely ATTACK ME, and try and discredit the detailed and scholarly sources that I use

Nice try COMMIE
Posted by SocialistRI82 9 years ago
SocialistRI82
The start of a fascist mindset in this country is upon us. Solarman1969 stated "someone else who has a clue about Islam
and the murderous repressive DEATH CULT that it IS" which is evidence of exactly what I am talking about. We all look back on history and wonder how the German people during WWII could have been so blindly manipulated and brought to hate, yet we are finding our society with people still keeping the Nazi legacy on. I'm sure solarman1969 has a "clue" about Islam. I'm sure he's been to mosques, met with regular clerics in the Islamic community, as well as having read the Quran. Actually I'm willing to bet he's done none of these things. People need to realize watching the news, reading the newspaper, and using the internet are not the ways to formulate an opinion/belief on something. Sometimes these avenues lack the real-life face to face interaction necessary to fully understand the issue at hand. People should by this stage understand that Islam is NOT as Solarman1969 would have you believe. I understand why this guy might feel as he does. He's fed a constant diet of anti-muslim news, press, radio talk shows, and tv shows which have aided in misinforming him. Alot of people love to use hand picked verses from Islam to illustrate their point. As Yosef had stated the verses are open to individual interpretation, translation difficulties, and they are not all meant to be taken literally. Religion as a whole is plagued with these same difficulties. It just so happens that currently the radical muslims are the ones causing problems now. Due to the crazy and cynical interpretations of mad men. The same things can happen in any religion. Christianity can look to its bible and find scores of verses that call for violence, death, and other concepts we deem today barbaric, and unlawful. So to categorize an entire religion as a "repressive death cult" shows me that there still remains a great deal of ignorance in the world.
Posted by Yrael 9 years ago
Yrael
Its not a poll, its not about him having your support. It's about who is the better debater. -.-
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