The Instigator
lucasjcole
Pro (for)
Winning
12 Points
The Contender
cheyennebodie
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

In the end, Jesus Christ will save all of mankind and unite them with Himself in Heaven.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
lucasjcole
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/13/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 784 times Debate No: 61671
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (15)
Votes (3)

 

lucasjcole

Pro

From the Old Testament, through the Gospels, through Paul"s and the other Apostle"s Epistles, the concept of Universal Restoration is evident.

Simply put, the Bible seems to speak of Jesus" atoning sacrifice as pertaining to the whole world, to all men, to everyone. Verse after verse language like "everyone," "all," "whole" are used. In Lamentations 3:31 it says no one is cast off forever, that His love is unfailing (completely refuting the doctrine of eternal punishment might I add). Yes, it would seem Jesus planned to save everyone, especially those who in this life believe (think about it, the earlier you start believing, the more, or at least longer, you are saved).

Regarding Hell, the Bible does speak of a literal Hell, but it is debatable that its duration is eternity and its purpose is damnation. There is evidence that suggests the duration is finite and its purpose is corrective. In fact, when laid next to the universalist verses, this interpretation makes sense. How can Jesus "draw all men to himself" yet cast off and destroy them at the same time?

In fact, the most convincing argument for Christian Universal Restoration is one of the most pervasive themes in scripture, the story of Israel. God chooses the people Israel, loves them, gives them favor, and they throughout centuries reject Him, rebel against Him, and turn to other gods. What is God"s response? Is it to cast them off forever? To "let them" choose eternal separation from Him? To disown Israel? No. He stays faithful, He punishes them, corrects them, and gathers them back to Himself. He simply won"t let them walk away from Him. And if you say, "well that was before Jesus. Now if Israel doesn"t accept Jesus God ultimately WILL cast them away forever." But wait! The Bible actually says God is the one who blinded them from the Gospel! And it also says in the end, all Israel will be saved (Romans 11). Yes, Israel is a fantastic, real, literal, and historical example of the faithfulness, corrective punishment, and ultimate salvation of God. No matter how stubborn and rebellious we are, God will not give up on us. Ever.

Many people have, by the way, throughout the ages arrived at this conclusion. Early church fathers such as Origen, St. Jerome, Gregory of Nyssa (to name only a very select few) all believed that all things would be restored. In fact, this supposed modern heresy (reference Rob Bell"s "Love Wins") couldn"t possibly be any older. Ever since Christianity hit the main stage Universalism in some form or another has been around. It"s not new, it"s not heretical (it was never deemed a legitimate heresy by any church council ever), and it"s not illogical, unreasonable, or unfounded in scripture.

In other words it is just as, if not more likely to arrive at the conclusion of Christian Universal Restoration as it is for Eternal Punishment.

And I guess this is the main point. I can"t definitely say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no evidence for eternal punishment in the Bible. Fact is, there is. And although I think it has been misinterpreted I can understand why. But because there is equal, if not more convincing evidence for universal restoration, this is the position I believe is most espoused in the Bible.
cheyennebodie

Con

Jesus said in the garden of gethsemane, " If there be any other way, let this cup pass from me." If all it would take is time to heal all things, then why did Jesus have to go to the cross?

Answer this and we can go on.
Debate Round No. 1
lucasjcole

Pro

I am not asserting that all people will be saved eventually regardless of what they believe.

I am saying that all people will eventually believe.

And I am not saying that Jesus's sacrifice at calvary was insignificant in regards to salvation.

I am saying that it is the ONLY way to salvation, and therefore of ultimate significance.

So your argument is posed with a misunderstanding of my proposition. Jesus going to the cross is the ONLY way we are saved. I am simply saying that all will eventually come to a saving faith through it.

In other words, everything Jesus said in Gethsemane was true. There was NO OTHER WAY to save mankind. But that through that very act all would eventually be saved.
cheyennebodie

Con

O how I would that that were true. It would be so much easier to believe that. But it simply is not true. That is why Jesus told us in the 16th chapter of Mark to go into all the world and preach the good news. All that believe will be saved, those who don't,won't.Why would he tell us to do that if all will believe eventually anyway. Why put ourselves out on a limb now?

Do you know why Jesus never preached and healed after he was raised from the dead.He could have walked down the streets of Jerusalem with his nail scarred hands up and got everyone to believe.And they all would have. But there would be no faith in their beliefs. Just when Thomas said that he would not believe till he saw and felt Jesus with his own eyes. Jesus came and said to Thomas. " Touch my hands and my side.Then he said he was faithless. No faith at all.And that will be the boat all people who die will be in. They will finally believe because they can now see with their eyes.And that will never change a spirit being.Never get them reborn. If you do not get that here, old partner, you will not get it there.
Debate Round No. 2
lucasjcole

Pro

Before I begin, I'd like to point out two things.

1 - You still have not refuted any of my original proposition.

2 - I successfully refuted yours.

So at this point, let the record show that my original proposition stands and your first attempt to stump me was unsuccessful.

Regarding your current argument.

"That is why Jesus told us in the 16th chapter of Mark to go into all the world and preach the good news. All that believe will be saved, those who don't,won't.Why would he tell us to do that if all will believe eventually anyway?"

Your argument is thus: Jesus commanded His followers to preach the good news, therefore only those who hear it can believe, and not all will hear it, and others still won't believe it, therefore all will not be saved.

This of course is ruling out the possibility of post-mortem repentance and faith, which the Bible makes a case for:

1 Peter 4:6 "That is why the Good News was preached to those who are now dead—so although they were destined to die like all people,they now live forever with God in the Spirit.

And don't bother arguing that this refers to a "spiritual" death and not a physical one. It's physical death plain and clear.

And who preached that Good News? Potentially Jesus Himself.

1 Peter 3:19 - After being made alive, he (Jesus) went and made proclamation to the imprisoned (post-mortem) spirits

So if the gospel can be preached to people after they die, then why would Jesus command us to preach now?

Simple.

Say a foreign nation pays off all of America's debt. And say they only tell 12 people about it (imagine for a minute no internet, no TV, no phones). And the person tells the 12 "Go and tell all the people that their debt has been forgiven."

Now, their debt is forgiven whether they hear about it, believe it, or do anything one way or another. But wouldn't it be awesome to find out NOW? How much different would you live? How many different choices would you make? Who knows, but the urgency is there.

Jesus commanded the 12 to tell the whole world about what He had done so they could begin experiencing His salvation NOW.

But this in no way refutes the premise that all will eventually believe and be saved, even if they don't hear the gospel and believe this side of the grave.

I've established that the gospel can be preached to the dead, and I've given a motivation other than "that some might eternally perish" for Jesus to command His disciples to preach the gospel.

Any other arguments?

VOTE PRO!!!

cheyennebodie

Con

Why do you say you refuted my reasons for my position. That is not your call to make. Are you so weak in your comments that you have to try to pursued people through suggestions?

1st Peter 4:6. IS talking about those in the upper regions of hell. Abrahams bosom it was called. Peter said, The gospel WAS p[reached to those who are dead. That is what Jesus did when he was raised from the dead. He went into that upper region of hell was, got all those old testament saints reborn and led that whole bunch into heaven and presented them to the Father as his family. Sons and daughters of the most high. There are now no one in that place. It was emptied when Jesus presented himself as the messiah they had been waiting for. They had already put faith in God's word.The bible says that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. Righteousness was put on his account for future use.Their were no reborn men in the old testament. And the new testament did not start till the book of Acts. The bible says that a testament is not in force till the death of the testator.The new testament says that Jesus was made to be sin, for us, that we might be made righteous.Not just put on an account for future use like in the old testament.

All those in the lower parts of hell, where that rich man was that jesus talked about. They had no faith that God could act on. And never will have any.That place called paradise is now empty. We are now reborn men. Sons and daughters of God. We are now fit to walk in heaven.To come boldly to the throne of grace.

Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen. He also said that narrow is the road that leads to life. But broad is the road that leads to destruction.And those who took the road to destruction is a great gulf where they cannot cross over to life. Now if you want to believe that everyone will eventually be saved, you can do that. But that will not make it so.

That limbo and purgatory nonsense is simply no where to be found in the bible.This is serious stuff. And watering it down will not do anyone any good.
Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lucasjcole 2 years ago
lucasjcole
And what about the 500 Jesus revealed HImself to after his resurrection? And what about Thomas who put his finger through Jesus' hand? Are you saying NONE of these people will inherit salvation because they saw the resurrected Christ?
Posted by lucasjcole 2 years ago
lucasjcole
Cheyenne - that was the first real argument you've made (and it's a great one by they way, and one I don't immediately have an answer for).

So, good job. Wish you would have brought that up in the debate. Would have been a good point to think about!

While it's on my mind, Paul saw Jesus, right? Was his not "true" faith then because he actually SAW Jesus?
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Lucas: And you do not understand what part faith has to do with this.Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, or revealed to the 5 senses.Once those folks leave here they era then seeing to believe. And that will not change them from death to life.They will remain in the spiritual condition they left here in. I know it sounds cruel. But what is God to do? Just as he cannot work in our lives here without faith, he cannot work there either.The word says ? by faith we are accepted of him. He CANNOT accept any one when there is no faith involved.

I don't know how to say it any simpler.I know it sounds bad, but we operate under the spiritual laws God lives with. The law of faith. The good news is that anyone here can receive Jesus by faith and will for no reason be turned down.Because it is by grace. Unmerited favor.

Remember when Jesus went to Nazereth. The word says that there he COULD do no mighty work because of their unbelief.They never put faith to what Jesus said. Jesus preached healing, and they rejected it. Rejecting the promises of God will stop God in his tracks to get that promise to you.
Posted by lucasjcole 2 years ago
lucasjcole
cheyenne, I think it is clear that you aren't understanding my point. I agree with you that Jesus is the only way to God. I am not refuting that point one bit. I am simply saying that eventually everyone will come to believe in Jesus and be reconciled to God through him.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
adit: Jesus said, " I am the truth, the life and NO MAN comes to the Father but by me."We are talking about Jesus here, not buhda or mahammed.Our destination in life is the most important thing there is. All I am saying is that there is only one road that leads to eternal life, according to Jesus. The word of God.All other roads lead to a destination of death.We choose our own destiny. No one else can do it for us.
Posted by adityachittor 2 years ago
adityachittor
so what of the other religions? what of those without a religion?

read in religion a path to a higher life, a better being. Mistake it for a destination itself and it degrades to a mere political.
Posted by lucasjcole 2 years ago
lucasjcole
So cheyennebodie - you going to debate me?
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
And another thing that is wrong with your thinking. Heaven is not our home. That is just temporary.Just a stopping over place till Jesus returns.This natural universe is our home. Throughout eternity we will enjoy this ever expanding universe ha gave to us. There will not be a dull moment.But deat, hell and the grave will be cast into the lake of fire. Hell now is in the belly of this earth. The rich man looked up and asked that the begger, Lazurus would give him some water. Abraham said, there is a great gulf between us. It cannot be breached. God will not allow that law of sin and death to enter his domain. He can't.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
And another thing. If what you are saying is true. Then why send Jesus to the cross. If , over time, all are saved or reborn.Jesus asked the Father, " if there be any other way, let this cup pass by me". There was no any other way.He had to go through that horror and that misery for the joy that was set before him. That joy is us. All those who would accept his sacrifice.He died for all men, but all men would not accept it.That is evident.I could walk up to a someone and offer them a ten dollar bill. If they through pride did not take it, it was theirs but not in their possession.

And he did it with the possibility that no one would believe it.Not the probability. When Jesus died. There were only two that believed he would be raised from the dead. He and His Father.But with God all things are possible. He and God made a majority.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Faith is the only force that can change a spirit being.We are spirit,we have a soul (mind,will, and emotions ) and we live in these bodies ( earth suits ).Faith is believing without seeing. Taking a man solely on his word.Once a man leaves this natural body, and enters the world of the spirit, that transformation cannot happen. Now everybody will be able to see the truth. And faith cannot happen.Therefore the spiritual condition they leave here is forever embedded in their spirit and soul.

That is the reason why Jesus left here just as soon as he could. He stayed just long enough to give instructions to those who were already his.500 of them.He could have walked up and down every city and town in the world even to this day. But no one would get reborn. Power comes through faith, not sight.God has I

nvited all men to his banquet. Salvation, healing, prosperity, the mighty baptism of the Holy Spirit.But Jesus said, many are called, but few are chosen. He said that after the parable of the rich man inviting all his friends ( Israel ) to his banquet. Many made excuses not to come. Then he went into the streets and invited everybody ( gentiles ).He had his banquwt. Then he said, many are called, few are chosen. Who are the chosen many seminaries ponder over this question.Once again religion complicates things. The chosen are simply THOSE WHO SHOWED UP AT THE INVITE.

Jesus simple instructions to those 500 was , " go to Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost. " How many showed up on the day of Pentecost?120. What happened to the other 380. Bless their stupid hearts.
So after taking all of scripture and understanding spiritual law, we can only conclude that eternal means not subject to change. As a tree falls, so shall it lie.I would like to believe this also. But god and scripture just does not bear it out.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
lucasjcolecheyennebodieTied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro had irrefuted arguments backed up with evidence from the bible
Vote Placed by 1Credo 2 years ago
1Credo
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Reasons for voting decision: Con failed to put forward a coherent argument in favor of their position. I don't agree with Pro, but their conduct and spelling/grammar was much better and they at least put forward an argument to support their position.
Vote Placed by FaustianJustice 2 years ago
FaustianJustice
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Reasons for voting decision: Not really a religious guy as far as belief, so in the scope of the argument, I feel pro did an excellent job of both asserting and defending the resolution.