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The Contender
Con (against)
9 Points

India vs Any SAARC nation

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/28/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 638 times Debate No: 69041
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (2)




There are some strict rules that apply:

1. When you accept the debate, state your country, and state the numbers of your armed forces (aircraft, men, ships, etc.). Use this source for military numbers only, as it is the most reliable:

2. Each country's turn can range from about 3 days to 1 month long, so please take in consideration of how much you do in a turn, make it reasonable. (DO NOT try to win in one turn! Take into account that your opponent is also a living, thinking being that can adapt to a situation.)

3. Morale is a key factor in your armed forces' effectiveness.

4. You may produce more military forces (soldiers, ships, aircraft, tanks/humvees/cavalry), but it depends on your military budget, your country's population, and how industrialized your nation is.

5. You may choose to invade or defend.

6. You may choose whether or not it is I whom makes the first move or if it is you whom makes the first move.

7. If a nation's capital is destroyed/liberated, this does not necessarily mean that the war is won; the capital could be recaptured.

8. You can have ONLY ONE WMD. (Chooses WMD)

9. WMD is to be used as a last resort. It can only be used if there is an extreme threat to the nation.

10. IF a WMD is to be used, you MUST fully describe the effects of its' use IN DETAIL. Every aspect of the WMD's effects MUST be correct and realistic. Any unrealistic detail in the effects will cause the use of the weapon and ALL of its' effects to become void, and there will be no "restocking" of the WMD. Once you use it, you used it, whether or not the effects are void.

11. Every aspect of the war MUST be realistic. Any unrealistic detail will cause the entire action to be void. Three infractions of this rule will result in an immediate defeat.

12. At the beginning of the "war," you MUST specify what country you are, what WMD you will use (and describing the weapon using the below rules in the weapons' list), and you must show what the entirety of your armed forces is made of (soldier count, tanks, artillery, ships, aircraft, etc.).

13. Specify what your WMD is going to be. Specify ALL measurements of the WMD (yield, range, parts-per-million, altitude, longitude, latitude, etc).

14. You may choose ONE weapon from the following list of WMDs:

- Nuclear Weapon: No larger than a 50 kiloton yield. MUST specify type of detonation (underground/collapse, ground/shock, air burst/dust). MUST specify location of detonation (longitude, latitude, altitude. Also name country, province/state, and city of detonation).
*I would like to thank @maydaykiller for pointing out that 20 kiloton-yield nukes are almost nonexistent, and the use thereof is not realistic.*

- Chemical: Maximum 15 parts-per-million. Specify chemical type. Anthrax and all nerve agents ARE allowed, but only one can be used.

- MOAB: Able to penetrate a bunker with a maximum depth of 30 feet. Any measurement under 30 feet is accepted. Must be used on bunkers ONLY.

- Biological: Minimum parts-per-million of 15. Maximum initial infection of 1,000 people, but the infection may spread further.

- Radiological: Specify and describe the used radioactive material at the beginning of the war. MUST specify location of detonation (longitude, latitude, altitude. Also name country, province/state, and city of detonation).

15. No allies (NATO, UN, or otherwise) under ANY circumstances. You CAN have military or diplomatic agreements and/or treaties with other nations.
*I would like to thank @IcySound for pointing this out.*

16. No insults, cursing, or any inappropriate behavior.

17. No trolling.

18. Disobedience of ANY of these rules WILL result in an immediate "strike."

19. If you acquire 3 "strikes," you immediately forfeit the debate.

20. You can acquire all 3 "strikes" in one round or in more than one round. Regardless of how many "strikes" you have in a round, you forfeit that round, and all actions in that round are void. As said before, if you have 3 "strikes," you lose the war.

* I have removed Ballistic Missile due to the fact that it is not a WMD unless equipped with a nuclear-tipped payload, which I will not allow as you can already have one nuclear weapon (ballistic missiles can carry up to 12 warheads). *


I accept the debate.
My country is Pakistan.

GDP (nominal): $243.818 billion
GDP (PPP): $565 billion
Military budget: $6.98 billion
External debt: $54.5 billion
Reserves of foreign exchange and gold: $13.8 billion
Fit for military service: 75,326,989 people (37,945,440 males, 37,381,549 females)
Active frontline personnel: 617,000
Active reserve personnel: 550,000
Tanks: 3,124
Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFVs): 3,187
Self-Propelled Guns: 470
Towed Artillery: 3,263
Multiple-Launch Rocket Systems (MLRSs): 200
Total aircraft strength: 847
Fighters/interceptors: 377
Fixed-Wing attack aircraft: 236
Transport aircraft: 231
Trainer aircraft: 152
Helicopters: 263
Attack helicopters: 48
Total naval strength: 74
Frigates: 11
Submarines: 8
Coastal defense craft: 12
Mine warfare: 3
Oil production: 60,000 barrels/day
Oil consumption: 415,000 barrels/day
Oil reserves: 247,500,000 barrels/day
Labor force: 59,210,000
Merchant marine strength: 11
Major ports and terminals: 2
Roadway coverage: 260,760
Railway coverage: 7,791
Serviceable airports: 151
I choose to defend; you must make the first move and invade Pakistan.
Debate Round No. 1


Indian Army uses Tata LPTA 1615 TC Artillery Tractor Truck and fires on Lahore and Islamabad via Kashmir border. 5,000 Indian army, MARCOS and NSG troops carrying IMI Tavor TAR-21 Assault rifle, Barrett .50, M2 Browning, NSV, KPV, Glock 17, Dragunov SVD59, M2 HMG, Grenade 36mm, Multi Mode Grenade Shivalik, 160mm Tampella, RPO-A Shmel and AK-47 attack LoC via Kashmir and Punjab. Along with them for transportation etc are vehicles VFJ Jonga
Mahindra 550 DXB
Swaraj Mazda
Maruti Gypsy
Windy 505
VFJ Matang
Super Azad
Ashok Leyland
Sisu Nasu
VFJ Shaktiman
VFJ Rampar
Tata Model 1210SD
Army begins to shell Pakistan. DRDO 155 mm artillery gun is used in an effort to pin down Pakistani troops with heavy shell fire. 10 Pinaka MBRL missile launcher and BM-21 missile launcher start to fire rockets at Pakistani capital, Islamabad and Pakistani army formations.
INS Vikramaditya (aircraft carrier) starts naval operations from the Bay of Bengal. 5 HAL Tejas and 3 Sukhoi Aircraft provide air support to the Indian Army via heavy machine gun fire on defensive Pakistani formations, and also use BrahMos supersonic air to land cruise missile and Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile. INS Shardul, INS Cheetah, INS Airavat and INS Kesari landing ship tankers carrying Indian Army and MARCOS troops surrounded by INS Talwar (F40), INS Rajput (D51)
INS Rana (D52), INS Ranjit (D53), INS Ranvir (D54), INS Ranvijay (D55) guided missile destroyers approach Karachi via the Bay of Bengal. Guided missile destroyers start to shell Karachi. INS Viraat lets loose 20 Sea Harrier FRS51 to pin Pakistani naval ships in the Bay of Bengal. Russia supports India with monetary funds and military technology.

I end my attack here for now


You have just invaded a powerful SAARC member and a major non-NATO military ally of the United States without reason firing on the LOC without disturbance. This is, essentially, infiltration and unprovoked invasion. This, though not to the extent of a war of aggression (the Kashmir conflict is ongoing), has severe political and economic repercussions for India.

I. Pakistan is a major non-NATO ally of the United States, and thus a major ally of NATO itself. This results in severe economic sanctions posed by the United States. The attack on Lahore and Islamabad is technically a war of aggression, since the aggression is not in the LoC. The United Nations Charter Article 1 states,
"The Purposes of the United Nations are:
1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;"
The UN Charter Article 2 paragraph 4 states, "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations."
Article 39 states, "The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security."
Article 41 states, "The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations."
The permanent members of the Security Council are: China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States. China's cold relationship with India will result in imposition of a level of economic sanctions. China is India's second largest trade partner, with an overall trade of $67.8 billion per year; it may be cut short by even a massive amount of 4-5 BILLION dollars. Trade will be compressed further with France, the United States and the United Kingdom. France and the United States are also responsible for supplying lots of India's ammunition; both countries, as members of the UN Security Council, will completely shut down military trade, leaving India dependent on Israel and Russia. Under political pressure from NATO, Israel will be forced to impose minor sanctions, and China's energy trade pressure will also force Russia to look for diplomatic means of settling the conflict, instead of supplying ammunition. The Arab League forms a major ally of Pakistan; the United Arab Emirates, the largest trade partner of India, will thus impose major sanctions. Saudi Arabia, the world's second largest oil producer, will also impose sanctions on oil, leaving India dependent, once more, on its own production and Russia. Russia is forced to cut down military monetary funds because of international economic pressure.

II. A Military Standpoint: Pakistan retains strength on POK and the LoC, while sending troops and ammunition in a defensive move. I send 275 SPGs, 1046 armored fighting vehicles and 800 tanks to the LoC defense, 50 SPGs, 800 AFVs and 400 tanks each to Lahore and Islamabad in defense; secretly divided, 149 of the 300 reserve M48A5 tanks are deployed; Type 85-IIAP, T80UD and Al-Zarrar tanks also deployed; in addition, a few M901 ITVs with M220 TOW dual-launchers and some ZSL92s. The personnel use Tokarev and Beretta 92F handguns, in addition to SIG Sauer P226s. Sterling SMG and H&KMP5K carbines/machine guns are deployed; M16A1s and Steyr AUGs are the assault rifles deployed. We use FN FAL battle rifles, and M2 Browning heavy machine guns. The armed forces deploy HJ-8 anti-tank missiles to destroy all tanks on the border.
Debate Round No. 2


arj588 forfeited this round.


April 17th, 2015
Following the late-February naval and land force attack on Islamabad, Karachi and POK, Pakistan, by the Indian Armed Forces, the United Nations Security Council meeting convenes to reestablish the UNMOGIP mission. This second meeting of the council after the Indian offensive of Pakistan brings to vote for economic sanctions against the Republic of India; the United Kingdom is the sole country to have a representative who is not head of state or government. A vote decides to bring back the UNMOGIP, but sanction decisions are indecisive.

May 1st, 2015
The United Nations convenes at New York City to discuss global economic sanctions against India. The proposition is supported directly by Algeria, Bahrain, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Indonesia, Malaysia and Tunisia. All the mentioned countries completely shut down all trade with India; the United Arab Emirates, India's largest trading partner, also closes trade as a sanction. The United States proposes shutdown of military and energy-resource trade alone, citing the crashing of economies. Japan, China and the United States close all loan programs. Pakistan shuts down all trade and closes all diplomatic relations with India, but, on advice from the UN, maintains the ceasefire treaty, despite Parliamentary protest to close the LoC pact. All talks for an Indo-Pakistan non-aggression pact closed. United States and France stop supplying military technology to India; United States and Saudi Arabia cut oil supplies, leaving India dependent on Russia. Israel shuts down military and technology trade with India, and under political pressure, Russia lessens the amount, though not imposing major sanctions. The European Union cuts down all energy reserve trade with India. NATO chooses not to intervene directly in the conflict.

May 3rd, 2015
Revolts break out in Kashmir, because of decentralization of Kashmir's semi-autonomous government. Pakistan's armed forces deploy HJ-8 anti-tank missiles and destroy all tanks in the LoC. The Inter-services Intelligence shuts down radar communication near the LoC, and SSG commandos launch a secret operation to attack all LoC Indian defense offices. The commandos use FN P90 compact firearms, Colt M4 carbines, Dragunov sniper rifles, Rheinmetall MG3 light machine guns, Barrett M82 anti-material rifles, POF Eye CornerShot guns, and Glock semi-automatic pistols. PSG1 sniper rifles are also deployed by the special force squads, and Finnish Tikka bolt-action rifles. Cutting-edge weapon technology is also provided by America. 85% of the LoC operations offices are declared defunct, and the special forces retreat with high levels of information. Send stealth UAVs to gain reconnaissance of Indian weapons technology. Also send a Babur cruise missile with 11 conventional warheads to the Bay of Bengal, where Indian ships are stationed; attack the HAL Tejas and Sukhoi aircraft on the INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier. Send Khalid-class submarines with SSG commando troops, and JF-17 TFBs to the Bay of Bengal. Launch 2 Ra'ad ALCMs at INS Talwar and Rajput from air, and send commando troops against the Indian army and MARCOS troops. The Indian ARMY (Army: noun; an organized military force equipped for fighting on LAND; Oxford Dictionary of English, American edition, 2014) cannot deal with naval combat; only MARCOS troops can. Force naval forces back.

May 4th:
Pakistan Armed Force counterattack on the Line of Control continues, with the ISI provoking Kashmiri rebellion and infiltration the semi-autonomous state government. The Pakistan government launches a propaganda strategy broadcast on news channels all over the world on the "cruel" offensive of India against the nation, launching protests all over India. With these massive sanctions, India's GDP shoots down, causing a major Indian economic crisis. Pakistan announces preparation of nuclear warheads for fast cruise missiles (my weapon of mass destruction).

Debate Round No. 3


arj588 forfeited this round.


May 16th, 2015:
India has still uncharacteristically maintained naval position in the Bay of Bengal, without any authorized retreat from its strategic position. An emergency meeting of the UN Security Council is convened, with a proposition to establish a South Asian Security Council to prevent conflicts in South Asia, comprised of all 14 members of the UN Security Council and all members and observers of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC). Angola, Spain, Chile and Venezuela abstain from vote, and China votes against; all other members of the UN Security Council vote for it, and the motion is passed. I choose to increase Pakistan's military budget to $10.47 billion, to facilitate massive military technology development. Pakistan also facilitates the building of three guided-missile-equipped destroyers, one of which costs $4 billion, to increase speed of building, building it in one month.

May 26th, 2015:
The first South Asian Security Council meeting is convened at Sri Jayawardenapura, Sri Lanka, to discuss the Indian armed force position. The Council decides to ask for the convening of a UN Assembly at New York City to discuss the complete economic sanctioning of India and to expel India from the United Nations if it refuses to change its position on attacking Pakistan at the LoC. India has officially stopped attack, but the sanctions remain in place according to a UN strategic analysis, because warships are stationed close to Malaysia and Indonesia.

May 31st, 2015:
Pakistan exerts further military control over Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir, and goes into talks with China for the acquisition of the Aksai Chin part of Kashmir; the Chinese Premier refuses politely, but creates a firm diplomatic (non-military) alliance for trade between the two countries through POK and Aksai Chin. Pakistan Special Forces gain control of all LoC Indian Armed Force offices (see previous argument) for lack of adequate security response. India faces severe criticism for not properly withdrawing forces from the border, and severe economic sanctions send it into complete economic crisis, nearing an emergency situation. Administration is not carried out properly, and taxes are raised, causing fierce revolts. Religious riots also take place, and the Indian government turns all its attention to internal threats.

June 6th, 2015:
The other members of SAARC impose fierce sanctions on India, cutting off economic alliances. Because of the constant lack of response for three months, the Indian forces are not paid adequately, and retreat back to India to quit, clearing the Bay of Bengal. Government officials do not get proper pay, administration is poor, and the military costs have shattered India. The nation's GDP falls, and the government cuts the military budget to a minimum. The External Affairs Ministry is shattering, and even Russian support is declining. The manpower is cut down due to this severe internal crisis, and Pakistan's armed forces are equal in number to that of India.

June 15th, 2015:
I use the military budget and the budget of the external affairs ministry to facilitate technology trade with Saudi Arabia, Germany and the United States, getting state-of-the-art guided missile technology, and advanced aircraft-launched missiles. The new nuclear development program is funded as an alliance with the United States, and the missiles are declared ready.

June 20th, 2015:
Pakistan announces that one of its guided-missile destroyer warships is ready for deployment. The Indian Armed Forces gradually collapses, and Pakistan's manpower increases, now the fifth largest armed force in the world. Pakistan officially announces that any further attack from India will be dealt with ruthlessly.
Debate Round No. 4


arj588 forfeited this round.


Here are the reasons I deserve a 7-point victory -

Had better arguments:
Rebuttal to Round 2:
There are no Pakistani ships in the Bay of Bengal; they are only in the Arabian Sea. Missiles, though, CAN be launched via the Bay of Bengal to Pakistan if they have a long range.

PMO (Pakistan Military Objectives):
1. Ensure disengagement of Indian naval-launched missiles and warship-positioning against Pakistan.
2. Heighten military technology and armed forces to equal that of India's.
3. Control all exchanges of fire in the Line of Control.
4. Halt all offensive moves to Islamabad and Karachi.

Fulfillment of Objectives:
1. India's economic crisis has forced it to drop its military budget. Thus, the salary of soldiers is reduced, causing many soldiers to quit.
2. Sanctions allow India fewer resources that are depleted by war, provoking a revolt against the government. All offices in the LoC are under Pakistani control. Rebellion in India has forced government into turmoil, forcing stop of all gunfire exchanges.
3. Due to lack of motion and economic crisis, India has halted all offensive moves.

Thus, all of Pakistan's objectives have been fulfilled. India's crisis has forced its armed forces to a point weaker than Pakistan's.
Thus, I have had better arguments.

Had better spelling and grammar:
Grammatical errors made by my opponent are:
1. "please take in consideration of how much you do in a turn ..." - The correct word here is TAKE INTO, not TAKE IN.
2. "You may choose whether or not it is I whom makes the first move or if it is you whom makes the first move." - Here, both the mentions of "whom" must be replaced by "who".
3. "MUST specify type of detonation" and "MUST specify location of detonation" both lack an article before detonation, that is necessary.
4. "Any measurement under 30 feet is accepted." - The accurate sentence is "Any measurement OF under 30 feet is accepted."
5. The first paragraph of my opponent's second round argument was riddled with inaccuracies in placement of determiners and articles.
6. "10 Pinaka MBRL missile launcher and BM-21 missile launcher start to fire rockets at Pakistani capital, Islamabad and Pakistani army formations." Here, there should be a comma after Islamabad.
7. "I end my attack here for now" has no full stop. This is another punctuation error.

My opponent forfeited 3 out of 5 rounds, and thus, has not properly fulfilled the necessary conduct in a debate.

More reliable sources:
My sources for economic strategies and sanctions was the highly trustworthy United Nations charter itself, and that was the only source used in the debate.

Thus, I have covered all 7 Points. Thanks to arj588 for setting up this wonderful debate, and for allowing me to participate in this debate, thus gaining a great opportunity. And I request voters to judge the debate accurately, and vote for whomever they think debated better.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Paleophyte 1 year ago
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeits
Vote Placed by The-Voice-of-Truth 1 year ago
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: FF. No action was taken against Pakistan except in the second round. Pro used global firepower, and Con used the United Nations charter. Just refer to Con's reasons for victory.