Intellectual Differences Exist Between Races
Debate Rounds (5)
Due to the fact I am making a very controversial and politically incorrect argument, I want to first state that my argument is primarily based on the fact I have done research on both sides of the story and I feel that the evidence is overwhelmingly one sided. I hope that whoever debates me will refrain from using offensive slurs because of my viewpoint, and I hope they will offer constructive, intellectual arguments to the alternative viewpoint, not fueled by emotion and anger, but by fact and reason.
My predominant argument is that racially, there are very definitive differences between the intelligence of different races. Jews, Asians, Whites, Hispanics, Blacks is the hierarchy.
I will define race as a group of people who can be defined by physical differences. The main races I will be using in argument are as follows:
White - A group of people who are of European descent, with white skin and round eyes, and diverse hair and eye colors.
Asian - When I use the term Asian, I am specifically referring to East Asian (e.g. China, Japan, and Korea), and this is defined as someone who originates from said countries and has the distinct physical features (eye and skin) that define that race.
Black - People of African descent, with the darkest skin color
Non White Hispanic - I am defining Hispanic as a race, not an ethnicity, and it is used to encompass all people who originate from South American and Central American countries
Jews - I classify Jews as a race. While Judaism is a religion, Jewish people can be distinctly defined as a race due to several thousand years of segregation and exclusion. They have distinctly different noses and hair texture from ordinary white people, and can be easily distinguished from an ordinary European.
Intelligence - While I understand Intelligence is an incredibly complex and poorly understood subject, I will argue that we understand enough about intelligence for it to be observed. If you choose to accept my debate, I will go into further detail, but I will refrain from that in the introductory debate.
Race - Even harder to define than intelligence, but I would say that race absolutely exists, it is the construction of tens of thousands of years of geographic (and therefore genetic) isolation of groups of people. Race is a spectrum, and it is not absolute, but that does not change the fact that it is a fairly accurate use of determining intelligence.
I also hope that whoever so chooses to debate me refrains from using individual examples. In other words, if you know an intelligent person who is black, do not use them as an example that proves me wrong. In my argument I am talking about groups of people who number in the 100 millions (with the exception of Jews, who number at about 15 million), I am not, in anyway talking about individuals.
Lastly, whoever accepts my debate, I hope they will truly finish it to the end.
I'd like to first thank the opponent for creating this debate and making it publicly acceptable. This is an interesting and controversial topic and while many others might be prone to approach this subject emotionally, I fully agree with the opponent's proposition that this topic should be combatted in a logical, reasonable manner.
I would like to acknowledge that the Burden of Proof rests on Pro's shoulders, as he is making the affirmative claim and since there was no first round specification that BoP will be shared. This means, in order for Pro to win, he must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that "intellectual differences exist between races".
I will also discuss the definitions, but first something must be addressed regarding resolutional interpretation that I think my opponent will find reasonable.
It is an established fact that intellectual differences exist in all people. No two humans share the exact same brain, meaning there are marked differences in their individual intelligence. However, this debate cannot be won by simply pointing this out. The opponent must prove that there exist intellectual differences inherent to the race itself, rather than some other factor that does not uniquely belong to that race, such as gender, education, socioeconomic conditions, etc.
Intelligence - I agree with the opponent that intelligence is a complicated concept. A large portion of my argument will concern the very nature of intelligence, so I would like my opponent to thoroughly explain his understanding of intelligence and how it relates to his arguments. The Meriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines intelligence as, "the ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situation." This seems like a somewhat reasonable overarching definition of intelligence, but it does not describe how to measure it. I would also like my opponent to expand upon how he will measure intelligence and why that measurement is objective and preferred.
Race - I'm in agreement with the opponent's definition of race. There are physiological differences that exist between peoples, a result from "geographical and ... genetic isolation".
I look forward to the opening arguments! Since we have five rounds, I will assume that R2 is for opening arguments only, that R3 and R4 are for rebuttals and that R5 is a summary round, in which no new arguments or evidence may be provided.
I am glad that you accept my definition of a Jew. I will start my argument with the fact that the Jewish people, while only consisting of 0.5% of the population of the world are responsible for 25% of nobel prizes, 25% of turing awards, 25% of fields medals, and 50% of world chess champions. Whereas only 1 black person has achieved any of these feats. Once again, this is not something I wish to site, simply because quick research will prove my point.
It just so happens that African countries are the least hospitable, while Japan and South Korea are some of the most hospitable (China will join the club soon).
The only race suffering right now is African Americans... Is that because white people are racist? The Asians and the Jews have seen nothing but success in this country, and they have been equally discriminated against.
My argument to you, Con, is that since you accept my definition that Jews are a race separate to whites, how come they are so dominate in all of the intellectual fields?
I'll start out by making a brief observation. At the end of last round, I mentioned that I would be assuming that R2 was just for opening arguments. However, the way in which the opponent structured his argument (by posing a lot of questions directly toward me) it seems that he wishes me to respond.
As such, I'll be rebutting the arguments made by the opponent, then mention something about a request I made regarding intelilgence.
Contention 1: Jewish vs Blacks; Nobel Prize
My opponent first contends that the Jewish people are responsible for "25% of nobel prizes, 25% of turing awards, 25% of fields medals, and 50% of world chess champions. Whereas only 1 black person has achieved any of these feats." The opponent did not cite any evidence to support this, instead claiming that it is easily verified.
While it is correct that neither the Fields Medal or the Turing Award has been given to an African American, nor has any African American ever been a chess champion, there have been 15 African American Nobel Prize winners. While this does not drastically alter the opponent's point, it would be a diservice to African Americans not to correct the facts on this issue.
Regarding the other achievements my opponent pruported as some measure of intelligence, one must note that only 56 Fields Medals have been awarded, only 62 Turing Awards have been given and there have only been 16 world chess champions since that title has officially existed, with 10 of these champions from USSR/Russia.
The point here is that the awards in question have been given to so few people that it would be hasty and intellectually dishonest to conclude that this tiny sample set is any way reflective of intelligence by race. There can be no doubt that the men and women who have accomplished these feats (namely the last three) are intelligent, but this does not speak to the intelligence or lackthereof of other people.
You could take a random sample of 50 people from a population of 6 billion, but you'd be very unlikely to learn anything interesting, barring except average height, simply because the variance inherent in such a small sample size destroys its statistical usefulness. And that's exactly what my opponent's argument is -- an outrageously small sample size that he is trying to draw statistically meaningful conclusions from, when that's simply not possible.
Lastly, it's important to note that there exist many socioeconomic barriers that hinder the successes of minorities. For instance, a black college student is less likely to get a job than a white high school drop out, simply because of race.  This is largely due to negative cultural overflows from a time when African Americans were not considered equal to Caucasians. With this in mind, one can see how a negative socioeconomic position works against minorities and how this might affect a minority's ability to become as successful as his majority equal.
In summary, the opponent's argument uses incorrect statistics, a too-small sample size and neglects other possibilities as to why minorities are less likely to be academically successful in the status quo.
Contention 2: Stability of Countries By Racial Majority
In this argument, the opponent claims that "African countries" are the least hospitable, as opposed to Japan and South Korean countries, which are "some of the most hospitable [countries]."
While the opponent does not actually state any conclusion for this, it seems he is implying that a country's political state is in some way tied to the intelligence of its citizens. This implication must be proved, with evidence, before it can be considered relevant to this debate. The entire idea that political health is tied a country's race's intelligence is ludicrous (and unsubstantiated). We see in nature that many other non-human animals (who are no doubt less intelligent that us) are capable of living in a state of peace and cooperation, which seems to defeat the idea that intelligence signficantly impacts a country's political well-being.
Again, the opponent will need to provide evidence to back up the implicit claim.
Contention 3: Jews and Asians are not discriminated against, Blacks are.
It is true that African Americans are perhaps the most discriminated upon race in America (though this may be shifting toward Middle Easterns). However, I'm not sure how this relates to the resolution. For one, it's simply untrue that Asians and Jews have been discriminated against as much as African Americans (in America). And while a few subsets of people do still discriminate against Asians and Jews, the largest subset is that of people who discriminate against African Americans.
Again, this is likely due to a residual cultural effect from when blacks were legally discriminated against, enslaved, etc. The opponent doesn't seem to have much of an argument here.
Opponent's Closing Remarks
Before ending, the opponent asks me "how come [Jews] are so dominate in all of the intellectual fields?" First, I'll point out that I have no actual need to explain this. Rather, since the opponent has the burden of proof, it is necessary for him to explain how Jewish success in intellectual fields is indeed a result of innate intelligence, rather than any of the other possible factors. In other words, the opponent needs to find data that manages to remove (to a reasonable extent) all other factors and look simply at intelligence, by race. (My opponent will find this difficult, since it's hard to find a dataset of people that haven't been affected by cultural, economics, politics, etc.)
In fact, I will now contend that it is fundamentally impossile for my opponent to prove his point. There is simply no way to separate the variable of "intelligence" from all of the other variables except race. There simply is no way to measure the two without drastic interference from other factors.
For instance, the opponent may offer IQ scores or standardized test scores by race, but these scores would fail to adjust for the economic statuses of its participants. Blacks, who are economically worse off, on average and who are less educated, on average, would clearly show lower test scores. But is this because of intelligence, or is this because of the economic situation? Or perhaps the culture? We don't know and the opponent doesn't know, so the evidence simply isn't valid.
I took this debate mainly because it seemed that my opponent had some amazing evidence regarding this issue, but it seems as if there is not any evidence at all. The opponent needs to find evidence that demonstrably proves that intelligence is tied directly to race, otherwise he simply has no leg to stand on.
A Bit About Intelligence
As the opponent mentioned in his opening speech, intelligence is a very complicated issue. In my opening speech, I agreed to this and urged my opponent to provide a detailed explanation of what he defines to be intelligence, as well as mention what standards of measuring intelligent are the best and why.
The opponent failed to do this. In fact, he did not provide any intuition on what intelligence is or how it should be measured, despite my request. I can only assume that the opponent does not know how intelligence should be defined and additionally does not know of any good ways to measure it. Perhaps I am wrong, though, and the opponent wil discuss this next round. I will save the brunt of my "intelligence" argument until that time, as it is necessary to know where the opponent stands on the concept of "intelligence".
The opponent seemed to think he had some sort of trump card with the Jew arguments and, as a result, failed to discuss anything else. This was a mistake, as the arguments did little to uphold the resolution. I have demonstrated that the opponent uses a too-small sample size for the one substantive argument made. Additionally, I have showed that it is near impossible for my opponent to uphold the resolution, as there is no statistically possible way to separate race and intelligence from other variables that can affect a person's intellectual growth.
To do this, the opponent would need to find a person of each race that has had the *exact* same life experiences, then compare their intelligences. The opponent will have a difficult time doing this.
I look forward to my opponent's response and I look forward to his detailed description of what intelligence is, how we measure it, and why that measurement is an accurate representation of intelligence.
1 - http://thinkprogress.org...
Con, you seem to be making the false assumption that I am specifically speaking of African Americans, I am actually speaking of all Africans. I am speaking of all Jews. I am speaking of all Asians. This is about intellectual differences between races, worldwide.
As for my definition of intelligence, as I have already said, it is an incredibly complicated thing to describe. I would say that the dictionary definition "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills" fairly accurately represents it. And I believe that IQ tests, and other standardized tests for that matter, while unable to capture a person"s intelligence completely, are accurate measures, regardless. To prove this, much of my argument will consist of the correlation of IQ and traits, that I believe both of us can agree, are desirable " success, crime, education, etc.
All in all, I believe that while discrimination and socio economic status are very influential in a person achieving all that I have just mentioned, innate intelligence is still a very important genetic component that is often overlooked.
Argument 1: Jewish vs Blacks; Nobel Prize
I do apologize for my error on that statistic. But you similarly made an error, of those 15, only 4 are African American1. The others are from different countries. Regardless, the reason I said 1 was because only 1 of those 15 won a prize in something other than Literature and Peace, I accidently failed to mention that. I left out the other 14 because Lit and Peace are both very subjective to the cultural perceptions at the time. I will post citations for the Jews responsible in these fields.
As for the overall argument of the validity of using this information as being reflective of intelligence by race, it is incredibly relevant. This is not a "random sample of 50 people", this is a very large sample size of 793 of some of the most intelligent people who have lived in the past century. The fact that blacks are completely unrepresented in this intellectual elite speaks volumes. Look at the black and white IQ distributions, as the chart would suggest, the chance of a black having an IQ above 130 is extremely improbable (Bell Curve, 279), and several sources I have read suggest that the IQ of a Nobel laureate is averaged to be 1402(although it is a very poorly measured and graphed statistic as far as I know). I use this argument as it proves that blacks are simply non-existent in the intellectual elite.
Argument 2: Stability of Countries By Racial Majority
I used the word "hospitable" quite loosely. I use this argument, because Asians, who are ranked well over a standard deviation higher on IQ tests only stopped facing severe discrimination quite recently. China suffered some of its darkest days because of the Opium Wars, the Sino-Japanese Wars, the Cultural Revolution, etc, and now, with little aid from the west, has risen to become the world"s largest economy3. Japan has revolutionized robotics4, and one of the best public transit systems in the world, (along with South Korea)5. Furthermore, Japan, Korea, and Hong Kong are all listed in the top 30 GDP per capita, whereas no African countries are, in fact, 24 of the 30 lowest GDPs per capita are in Africa, including all 10 of the bottom 10.6 Managing a successful economy and well-designed country absolutely requires intelligence, and I don"t believe any citation is needed to make that claim. I also believe this adequately counters your animal argument.
Argument 3: Jews and Asians were very discriminated against
I won"t spend much time on this one, but remember what I said about China, and don"t forget Japan and the west"s involvement in World War II. Also, the Jews have been historically discriminated against and persecuted for their beliefs for the past 2000 years. Remember, they supposedly killed Jesus. The Jews and Asians have been very heavily discriminated in both America and Worldwide, yet they have now put themselves in positions of great power, while Africans continue to flounder.
Argument 4: Pre-Contact Africa
As a matter of fact, I consider this to be my trump card. A simple analysis of ancient, pre-contact Asia, Europe, and Africa show an overwhelming disparity in technological achievements, science, philosophy, etc.
Due to the almost absolute geographical separation provided by the Sahara desert, the Africans for most of history were unable to receive any of the technological developments discovered in Europe and Asia. For most of these sub-saharan African countries, we know very little about their history prior to 800AD, predominantly due to the fact that no Sub-Saharan African nation created a written language, something achieved by the Ancient Europeans and the Ancient Chinese in 2000BC! In fact, written languages weren"t even created in Africa until the 1900s, when white people showed them how. The only ancient writing systems in Africa are in northern Africa, and are based off of Egyptian and Arabic.7
Another incredibly important and revolutionizing invention that Africans failed to create was the wheel and axle. This was possibly discovered independently by both the Chinese and the Europeans (however there is some debate as to whether or not it was shared between the two). The Xia Dynasty had horse drawn war chariots prior to 1600BC.8,9
The African"s also failed to create a single known ancient philosopher or scientist (at least I can"t find any), while one could name dozens from 3000 years ago in China, Europe, and the Middle East.
Anyhow, there are many more examples I can give regarding pre-contact Africa, but I will stop with those. This is incredibly important, because it shows that BEFORE oppression was even possible (they had never had sufficient contact), Africans were still intellectually behind Asians and whites by miles.
Contention 1: Socioeconomic Status and Oppression
Assuming you have the Bell Curve on you as I have mentioned would be wise, Murray compiled many studies that DO in fact isolate socioeconomic status and race, and the conclusions remain the same (pg. 288). As should be obvious, people with low IQs and intelligence will typically have poor socioeconomic status, and people with high IQs and intelligence will typically have very good socioeconomic status (a trend that is perfectly preserved when considering average IQ by race and average income by race).
Of scholars whose specialty"s gives them reason to have an opinion on this issue, 45% believe genetics and environmental issues combined effect intelligence and IQ differences between races. (pg. 295) This includes people like the founder of DNA, James Watson.
As for discrimination, when controlling for IQ, blacks are more likely to succeed than whites (pg. 320, 322, 323). For readers, these show that blacks are more likely to get a degree, have a high IQ job, and have similar wages to white people of the same IQ.
When controlling for a mother of average age and an IQ of 100, the child only has a 14% chance of being in poverty, yet 54% of black children nationally are in poverty (335).
Bottom line, as these many statistics should show, when socioeconomic status is controlled, blacks still have lower IQ"s than whites on average. And when IQ is controlled, blacks actually tend to be better off on average than whites. Therefore the reason such a vast majority of blacks on the planet are in poverty "must- have a genetic and intellectual component.
As human beings are animals, everything that makes us up must have some sort of genetic component. It seems readily acceptable to say that we inherited our parents" physical characteristics, or our parents sense of humor. Its acceptable to accept the fact that diseases and illnesses are inheritable, that allergies are inheritable. It is even acceptable to say that physical ability is inherited. Yet at the same time, many of these genetic components can be cultured and changed based on a person"s environment and socioeconomic status.
I would be surprised to learn if Con believed that intelligence was NOT inherited from a person"s parents. (However, if that is the case, next argument, I would be more than happy to develop this further). If he does accept that proposition, then why would intelligence not apply to race as well? A black couple who each have genetic immunity to malaria possess the risk of having a child with sickle-cell anemia. It just so happens that black people overwhelming possess this genetic characteristic (due to evolution selecting it because of high risks of malaria), and as a result, blacks are much more prone to be born with sickle cell anemia.10 I could provide countless examples of athlete families, where players have brothers, parents, sisters who are professional athletes. Yet at the same time, blacks as a race are overwhelmingly over represented in the NFL, NBA, long distance running, sprinting, etc. I could continue to show examples of traits that are passed down from father to son, and are also racial. Why would intelligence be immune to this effect? The races were isolated for 100,000 years after all, its almost as if each race is one giant extended family, they all have similar characteristics, intelligence included.
Will post links in comments.
Cobalt forfeited this round.
As Con has forfeited the last round, I will let my previous argument stand. If Con does decide to respond to this round, I hope he/she will address the topics I discussed in the last round. Since I can still rebutt in the next round, Con should feel free to add new arguments.
Cobalt forfeited this round.
Aurigae54 forfeited this round.
It is so unfortunate that these last few rounds have gone undebated. This was such an interesting topic and it seemed that neither me nor my opponent had time to truly combat the issues at hand.
Regardless, I believe my point stands. There is no true scientific way to connect intelligence and race outside of genetic arguments or brain-scan arguments, which the opponent didn't present.
The opponent presented IQ tests and historical evidence, neither of which truly stands. As for IQ tests, they only take place after an individual has been affected by socioeconomic influences. As for historical evidence, the opponent assumes that all cultures came about at the same time.
The opponent's arguments are well-founded on the surface, but upon investigation they hold no meaning. Vote Con on reasonable doubt, or vote none on lack of debate. Either way, thanks for reading.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Vane01 10 months ago
|Agreed with before the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Agreed with after the debate:||-||-||0 points|
|Who had better conduct:||-||-||1 point|
|Had better spelling and grammar:||-||-||1 point|
|Made more convincing arguments:||-||-||3 points|
|Used the most reliable sources:||-||-||2 points|
|Total points awarded:||1||0|
Reasons for voting decision: Less ff on pros behalf.
You are not eligible to vote on this debate
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.