The Instigator
iamsano
Pro (for)
Winning
30 Points
The Contender
james94
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points

Iraq should form a federation

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/13/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,237 times Debate No: 68
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (28)
Votes (17)

 

iamsano

Pro

i believe that the status quo is not working and is not going to work in the future. there has been no improvement at all and it is better for the UN to do the jobGive statistic on how many people die almost everyday, more suici because the iraqis are not willing to listen to america.

ABOUT THE MECHANISM:
I think it is better to choose the UN to do this and yeah there is an incentive for them to do so.
It's time to become realistic. The only way in which these three warring factions can be kept together under a single ruler is by an authoritarian strongman like Saddam Hussein, or by outside military control which the U.S. is exercising and tell to the house that you don't want that at all.

So as the government, I propose the federation of three separate states: one in the predominantly Shiite region; one in the Sunni region; and the third in the Kurdish area of the north, all loosely joined together in a single nation of Iraq.
I am not talking about splitting the country into three separate nations as in the case of Yugoslavia, but trying to have some of the advantages of a single nation while preserving the separateness of the communities. This can be done by creating three separate states within the Iraqi republic.
On oil, there is no reason that revenues can't be shared throughout the country. After all, the issue isn't who controls the oil, but who retains the revenue. The U.N. could create an entity to collect and distribute net income from the Iraqi oil industry.
james94

Con

I think that the splitting Iraq into three separate states would not be wise because they should try to work together to keep their government running smoothly and effectively.What we need to do is bring the Suni's , Kurds and the shiites together to form one government which we are in the process of doing now.

I also believe that the government was previously under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussein,and that a lot of Kurds were killed.
Debate Round No. 1
iamsano

Pro

Thanks james for your reply and yesh Iraq was under a dictotor called saddam who killes thousand of kurds and those people today do believe they should have autonomy over their own territory.
I believe in unity and the only way to achieve that in iraq right now is by giving each group the govern to govern itself while you have the central government in bangdad to control the borders.
During saddam time, the sunnis had more power, kurds were tortured and never felt happy and today we have the shiets who are the majority and if there is any election they will win and that is not wanted by the us and the iraqis themselves because they will have helps from their brothers from Iran. No one is ready to let the other govern and that is the problem. in this case the federation is necessary and this the means to bring unity because everyone will have its own territory and rules.
Secondly this will be the only opportunity for America to leave Iraq.
Today we have more violence going on in Iraq among the three races or groups. we also have attack on the us army because the iraqis do not really believe the us anymore and want them out by any means.
That is why i say the UN is the right one to take care of this problem and we have recently seen the un sending its representatives to study the situation.
Pakistan and Indian were one and they had to be separated when it was necessary and many other countries. if that was possible, why not a federation in iraq.
So james, could you please show the progress being made now in Iraq. I believe it becomes worse everyday. secondly who do you think should then unite these countries and how is your system gonna help?
Thank you
james94

Con

first of all iamsano you have mispelled the word dictator look on my spelling and you will understand.With Sadam Hussein regime the kurds was beaten and killed by chemical weapons.After the United States had eliminated sadam Husseins regime Iraq is in the process of being free. The Iraqi people had to vote for a new president, while there lives were at stake.They had to develop a new constitution that would include the kurds,shiates,and sunis in the government.The next point.

The reason why our soldiers is being attacked is not from iraqi people but from the terroist groups within the country.We are at war with the terroist not with iraq this is what our general is working on is to eliminate the terroist.

The reason it cannot be three states in separation is that the three groups need to brought together to work within their government.By voting all three groups will have a process of being elected in the government which is forming there own congress and senate like we do. A due process.To my next point

The Alqueda would love to see us leave so they could take over the country.We as Americans have a duty to finish the job that we started.And this is to stabilize the country.If we leave now the terroist made come over here is this what you want or have you for gotten about 911.In all context my argument is the country needs to be brought together not separated.
Debate Round No. 2
iamsano

Pro

Yeah james thank you for your response and am sorry for the wrong spelling.. it is a typing error i guess.

Alright first of all you should ask yourself why do we have so many terrorists groups right now in Iraq? Al-qaeda has nothing to do with the suicide bombign going on in Iraq my dear and that was even why the Interim government asked the insurgents groups to sit and talk.Those terrorists groups being formed are the iraqis my dear and that is just a fact. These people right now believe that America gave them false promises and that is why they want the US out of their country in the first place. These so called terrorists groups are being formed by almost every group or race. They fighting among each other too because they believe some of them support the us.

Secondly thanks for your point on how the kurds were killed, tortured and so on. That is the main reason why the kurds who are the minority will not in any way support a government that is not from them. They have always wanted to be free and have their own autonomy.America has failed in Iraq and even President Bush and his government have confirmed that. They have also proposed this idea too because they think it is the last solution.

Thirdly about election, as i mentioned earlier the shiates are the majority and even if US is trying to organize an election in Iraq, do you think that the US will in any way support a shiate government? I dont think so.
It is a good idea to have an election even if you have different groups but when it comes to Iraq my dear it is completly different. The sunnis who were once in Power and had all the good things do not want to lose that power anymore or be under anyone. In addition to that they will never let them being led by a kurd or shiate.
we have also seen attack on the government officials and that is because those people there are being chosen by the US. Anything done by the US will not appreciated now in Iraq..

In brief, we should all know that the Iraqis are fighting among themselves because no one wants the other to govern him.
secondly they want the US out and i believe that is good for both of them. We have lost enough American soldiers there and Iraqis too.
On Alqaeda, even if it is true that alqaeda is there, i dont see how we will give them power when America leaves.. because in that case Alqaeda has no one to attack.
A federation will bring peace and stability because they will all have their own administration.
I chose UN to do this because they are neutral and even many countries can contribute to help the UN but that will not be possible if America is there.
Than you James.

Sano
james94

Con

Sano I find that your comments are misconstrued. I also find that the federation would not work because these three groups do not need to be separated. Iraq does not need three different countries they should stay as 1. The Shiites,Kurds and Suni's will work better together when Alqaeda and terrorist groups are eliminated out of Iraq. On to my next thought.

If you recall when we first went into Iraq the U.S. was widely accepted by the Iraqi people. They liked the concept of being free ,and being able to form their own government.
Debate Round No. 3
iamsano

Pro

Hello james
Thanks for your comment on my arguments but i believe i make sense.
You have not proven anything because you just keep saying it is better for them to be united but you have never shown how is that possible under the current status quo. I have shown you that thousand of people have lost their lives in Iraq and we still have more fighting and violence going and you have not said anything about that.
Secondly I have told that even the US supports this idea. we have senator Sam Brownback calling us to support political settlement in Iraq based on federalism and even the former defense minister of Iraq supports it.
You should also know that a federation is completly different of a separation of countries and i have clearly defined this earlier.

You also mentioned that the US were welcomed when they first went to Iraq. Could you then please tell me why they are not welcomed now.
It is been more than five years and it is now necessary to do so something good for the iraqis people.

I have shown you how your election process is not gonna work in the first place and how the iraqis wants the US to leave at the end of the day. Even people in America want the US to leave.

It is like you have not been clashing with me in this debate. You kept talking about the terrorists groups or alqaeda which does not really makes sense here.
America didnt go to Iraq to fight al-qaeda. They went there to remove a dictator who they believed had missile of mass destruction which was not true. So when we talk about america leaving Iraq, that should not have anything to do with Alqaeda
Finally, James you need to show that the status quo is fine and people in Iraq are ready to be under America.
You also need to show me the harm of a federation. In case you are confused about that, the United States is a federation of states that means each states will have its own governor.. that is what i want in Iraq too.
Have a nice day.
Thank you
james94

Con

Sano, in conclusion I fail to see where a federation would work.You have not shown how it would work other than separation. On to my next thought

You did not and could not back up why we should form a federation in Iraq.You talked about separation of state and talked about the UN knowing previously that the United Nations was against the United States when we went into Iraq.

The United Nations would never back up the United States or any other country.Sadam Hussein had killed thousands of Kurds including women and children with chemical weapons.Our president Bush had gone to the United Nations and asked for help with this problem to go into Iraq but was denied help. How is the United Nations going to help for three states in Iraq when they wouln't help the United States to invade Iraq. The United States had to go alone.To my next point

Now we are cleaning up the mess in Iraq from Saddam Hussein and for the first time the Iraqi people are not going to have dictatorship but a free government thanks to the United States.They don't need to be separated but brought together to help support their government.It is imperative that we finish the job that we started.My next point

We have lost less men here than we lost in the vietnam war, we are winning against the terrorists why should we stop. We either fight them overseas or fight them here.We must continue with Iraq until it is stabilized.

We have never stopped fighting for what we beleive in but why now.Separating people or groups does not solve the problems.Would you separate the United States into three groups no then why Iraq?To the end of the argument.

You have not proven or back it up in detail why we should separate these groups of people.Thanks for the debate it was fun.
Debate Round No. 4
28 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Harlan 8 years ago
Harlan
"Harlem"?!

Never seen that mistake made when people see my name by reading it. Seems like it would be hard to mistake. People usually only mistake Harlan for "harlem" when it is visual.

Yes, I made some mistakes in spelling, but more importantly, you mispelled my name, which is a vastly more grave mistake.

Im kidding, of course...Yes, thank you for so keenly determining that I made spelling errors and politely pointing them out to me. (though slightly confrontationally)

-Harlan
Posted by james94 8 years ago
james94
Harlem maybe you need to learn grammer you mispell some words and you might find it humourous that fact and opinions could matter in context figure it out.
Posted by Harlan 9 years ago
Harlan
" If you believe in unity and not independence than vote for iamsano but if you believe in freedom than vote for me its up to you freedom versus statehood which does not work."

James, scroll to the top of the page it says: "who won this debate", not "who do you agree with"

It has been slightly annoying that epople such as yourself so often vote on their opinion, when that destroys the purpose of debating in the first place, for they could vote wqithout even reading it.
Posted by iamsano 9 years ago
iamsano
Hey James i am having another debate now that America should leave Iraq now and i am opposing it. You know for me debating is about making arguments here. you might be right in what you are saying but there were no arguments from you. I am not perfect too and maybe my mechanism was not but i think i made more sense in term of arguments. I love debating with you and hope we gonna have another debate soon.
I am so busy with work and studies..Have a nice day.
Thanks
I believe in freedom, independence,and Unity as you do but we are achieving them in a different way.
Posted by james94 9 years ago
james94
come on guys don't you believe in freedom not unity but independence thats what there trying to accomplish in iraq. If you believe in unity and not independence than vote for iamsano but if you believe in freedom than vote for me its up to you freedom versus statehood which does not work. The answer to your questions independence is a victory.
Posted by easy2know 9 years ago
easy2know
Again I agree we should be out of Iraq, most here believe we have gone above and beyond and its time for Iraq to take charge. My beliefs why Britain has begun to draw down is they feel or are seeing more and more civil discourse, but that is just a conjecture on my part, no "actual" facts. The UN has been established since the mid forties it also has gone through many changes, growth, stature, etc but is not the end all to end all, they are made up of humans, and to be frank if they thought they could do a better job they would have given us the help when we asked. Peace be with you friend.
Posted by easy2know 9 years ago
easy2know
Yes Iamsano your point is well taken, and yes we became a republic or federation (United States of America) thou many trails and tribulations. It surely didn't come over night, we had many wars within, but when most realized working together had better outcomes we created a more perfect union thus giving the true meaning of unity. Down the road when Iraqi peoples are not so divided (and you have to agree this is a civil matter) can they realize state hood, till then division will only exacerbate their march to democracy.
Posted by iamsano 9 years ago
iamsano
goldspurs so is there any proof that the us is doing the right job??? show me that... any improvement they made so far.
my arguments are not constructed but you guys do not have arguments... u just say keep it... because you still dont know the difference betwen a federation and a complete separation.
We have more casualities men going on everyday.. You seem to not know about the relations among those tribes... they want their own territory and that is even another reason they keep bombing each other...
dont vote for someone just because you are friends...
it seems like james make people vote for him...cool
Posted by goldspurs 9 years ago
goldspurs
So no proof is your proof that what should?? I'm confused. Its still a weak argument. I can't think of any circumstances that the U.N. has been helpful in situations like this on this big of a scale. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Posted by iamsano 9 years ago
iamsano
yeah easy to know you made my point. america fought against the british and even with that you been a federation. every state had its own governor and laws and they still do.. it is the same thing i am asking in iraq. I hope you get my point. i am saying iraq should be a federation of three states and of course you will have the central government. UN can do a better job because it is neutral and Iraqis will have more faith in them. secondly this is one of the reasons UN was founded. Iraqis have no more in the bush administration and that was even the iraqi prime minister said that America could leave. There is nothing they will do better in iraq. You gonna have a new president next year and Iraq will still be a problem. it is been 5 years and no single progress. I dont know how long we have to wait for this. The british went to Iraq with America and now we can see the british soldiers back home... why was that??? think about it..
have a nice day.
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