The Instigator
WillRiley
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points
The Contender
AmericaTheFatherland
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Ireland should join the United Kingdom

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
WillRiley
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/3/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,906 times Debate No: 64520
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (2)

 

WillRiley

Con

Please accept this challenge. First round is acceptance.
AmericaTheFatherland

Pro

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
WillRiley

Con

I would like to first establish something. The United Kingdom is primarily England. It is not like the United States in that there is not main state or ruling culture. However, the United Kingdom's capital is London, its leader is the English Prime Minster, and the Monarch is the Queen of England. Obviously, this is not an equal society.
Empire- supreme political power over several countries when exercised by a single authority.
England is ruling over the countries of Scotland, North Ireland, Wales, and if you have it your way, Ireland. That makes it an empire, which you apparently want to grow. Ireland, of course, doesn't want to be part of the British Empire. In fact, they have been rebelling against being conquered by England ever sense the Anglo-Saxons showed up in the British Isles. Celtic culture even has been suppressed by the English, and in some cases, even erased. Wales is now just seen as "Part of England" when it was once its own proud and independent culture. Now, this is not just a ancient issue. Even in the Twentieth Century, Ireland was oppressed. The English sent in their brutal troops, the Black and Tans, to further control and oppress the Irish people. That atrocities they committed are still remembered in Ireland today. In case you for some reason haven't yet realized where I am going with this, here is my point. Ireland is its own culture and country. It wants to be independent, and doesn't want to be controlled by any foreign power, especially the one that has been committing acts of unspeakable injustice against the Irish people for centuries.
AmericaTheFatherland

Pro

First, let's begin with this. The UK is unitary state. The United Kingdom of Great Britain was formed in 1707. Why? Because England and Scotland shared the same monarch which is King James VI of Scotland who inherited the English throne from his double first cousin, Queen Elizabeth I. Queen Elizabeth II is half-English, half-Scottish. Union of Crowns act in 1603 was that the Scottish king was also the king of England. Scotland said no to independence on Sept. 18, so let's skip that topic at the end. Ireland can rejoin the UK as federal union. Eh? A united Ireland for a federal United Kingdom. It was mother nature that decided that the unitary state of the United Kingdom capital be put in London, England. One-sixth of Britons are Irish. Never forget that. Why do I care about Britain and Ireland? They were previously united from 1801 to 1922. A rare number of Southern Irish unionists can be found. I am American by birth but British by the grace of God because America was colonized by the British. Hey, I have no problem if America rejoined the UK. One day, Ireland and Britain will be reunited due to geographical ties, cultural ties, and economic ties. Irish and British are brothers. Media, music, and sports are the same. Ireland is still British, always have, and always will. Ireland is British whether the Irish like it or not. Britain and Ireland will never ever be divided.
Debate Round No. 2
WillRiley

Con

No country should be ruled by another, especially one with a monarchy. Ireland doesn't recognize the Queen of England. Ireland is a proud and independent country. Though they are a large nation, their spirit, as well as their patriotism, is large. Every time the English conquer and oppress the Irish, they fight for their Independence. Finally, they have it, and you want to take it away. Now obviously, you don't care what the Irish think about being ruled over by a foreign power; "Ireland is British whether the Irish like it or not."You say that hey were previously united. Now united is saying it quite nicely. That is like saying that Austria, Poland, France, Serbia, ect. should "rejoin" Germany because they were united in World War II, by invasion, just like how Ireland was "United" into England. Still, you say nothing about the atrocities the British committed. Do you simply choose to ignore those? Britain and Ireland are fundamentally different cultures. British are Anglo-Saxon, and the Irish are Celtic. They have different folklore, histories, artwork, and music. Fact is, Ireland is not British, and it doesn't want to be.
AmericaTheFatherland

Pro

I don't care about Poland, Germany, Austria, and the other country you mentioned. I care about Britain. Irish republicans will say anything to get their people to side with them. No, Ireland was a union, not a colony. If Ireland was a colony, it would say it in history. But no, it said joined the UK. You said that I wanted to take away the Irish's freedom. Well think again. How many Irish are serving the British in WW1? 5,000. In WW2? 60,000. I'm saying the Irish and British need to be reunited to reconcile and to do what the past Irish and past British couldn't do. Did you forget that from 1891 to 1922, there were Southern Irish unionists who remained loyal to the Queen? Since 1922, we have heard no Southern Irish in the Irish parliament with the exception of Fine Gael, this party(http://irishunionist.wikifoundry.com...), and some others with petitions. For those Irish who supported Britain, you called them traitors, threatened to murder them, and abducted them. These Irish served the British in WW1 and WW2, and you want to forget them, totally disrespect. That's not what being Irish is about. It's about admiring your countrymen. Limited Irish recruitment in the Irish armed forces caused some Irish to serve the British. That's disrespectful to threaten them because of them. This site(http://www.nytimes.com...) shows the English and the Irish are one people through genes. You can break genes. Blood is thicker than water. The British and Irish are closely related by genes. Trust me.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Blood is thicker than water again. You can bring the conflicts that Britain and Ireland had in the past, but it will never break the relations that these two islands have together. These nations are on the same island. You can never break the bonds these two nations have.
Debate Round No. 3
WillRiley

Con

Genes do not matter at all. The English do not have to be different genes to be the enemies of Ireland. Someone's genes do not determine what actions they will make. That is everyone's choice. Throughout history, England has oppressed Ireland. Freedom is good, and even if many of the causes of modern Britain are just, Ireland doesn't want to be a part of the UK. Period.
Also, your point about the soldiers fighting for England, it's not because they are English loving. This is a excerpt from your own article:
"Why did a southern Irish Catholic voluntarily enlist in the British army? John Redmond MP, leader of the Irish party, pledged to support Asquith's Liberal party in return for the introduction of Home Rule."
The reason the Irish fought for the English because they wanted to be free of them. Or simply for adventure:
"Others enlisted for adventure, "for no other reason than to see what war was like, to get a gun, to see new countries and to feel like a grown man," in the fiery words of the future IRA leader, Tom Barry."
A leader of the IRA was among the supposedly "Patriotic British Soldiers" or whatever you think they are. You don't know what being Irish is about, because you just think Ireland should be owned by another nation. Not just any nation, but the same nation that has been oppressing and abusing the Irish people for centuries. Do you know why the Irish have had such a sad history (if you know anything about Irish history) it is all because of the English. If Ireland keeps being controlled by England, it will end up just like Wales, with almost nothing left of its once proud culture.
Throughout history, England has invaded and mistreated Ireland. Always, Ireland fights back. So many times has Ireland fought for its freedom that Wikipedia has a list of all of the uprisings.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

I have no problem with Ireland being allied with the UK, however, Ireland is simply a separate country, and so it should remain independent. Again, I end with the same point. Ireland is not British, and it doesn't want to be.
AmericaTheFatherland

Pro

The reason why you believe Ireland is ruled by England is that the central government is in England. Anglophobia will never be accepted in Ireland. Are you Anglophobic? Anglophobia is a tactic Irish nationalists use to convince the Irish that Britons are bad. Well, not quite. In 2010, Britain(and the EU) bailed Ireland out by 7 billion pounds. "Britain out of Ireland"? How can you hate Britain when they alongside with European Union, saved Ireland's behind in their financial crisis. Ireland by that time had no alternative but to seek a bailout. You may hate Britain now but you'll thank them one day. If you don't thank them, you're acting like they never did helped you. Genes do matter of course. A person cannot deny his roots. It's in his blood until the day he dies. For the Irish to deny the British through their scientific ties is as for a mother to deny her son. Of course, Ireland had it's right to secede the UK but for them to deny their historical ties with Britain is travesty. Sure Britain did wrong to the Irish and Ireland did wrong to the British but it doesn't mean they are still enemies. President Higgins of Ireland visited the United Kingdom back in April. The Irish and the British are becoming more closer than ever. In August 2014, an article said Britain still attracts a large number of Irish immigrants. Ireland should rejoin the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom. Let bygones be bygones, and let the Irish fellas back. Britain & Ireland can make up for the conflicts by reconciling. Reconciliation & renewing the ties these two nations. People would do anything for a second chance. What I'm saying here is Britain should tell Ireland to give them a second chance. Don't pretend that Ireland is innocent. The IRA killed Lord Mountbatten in 1979. That was the extreme side of Anglophobia. Anglophobic Irish republicans are also teaching adolescents to hate the British. That's brainwashing. Recently, an article stated that an IRA member raped a Belfast teen. Sinn Fein leader, Gerry Adams, denies the accusations of him concealing child-abuse crimes of the IRA. Anglophobia has no place in Ireland. No one needs to be brainwashed into hating someone because of their nationality, race, religion, sexual orientation, political beliefs, etc. Bigotry has no place in Ireland including Anglophobia. But as I said before, we can always make up the mistakes we did in the past. If there's no reconciliation between the two nations, it would hinder Anglo-Irish relations. Irish need to learn how to forgive Britons of the wrongdoings just as the British need to forgive the Irish of the Troubles. If you never forgive and put aside the past, it can control the future. The IRA apologized for British civilians dead while Britain apologizes for the wrongdoings to the Irish. Ireland have sports same as Britain, the media in Ireland is a copy of Britain's media. My friend, my opinion doesn't change nor will I lose hope. Ireland will be reunited with Her Majesty within 20 years. YES TO UNITY, NO TO SEPARATION.

UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL.

See for yourself. Ireland's economic ties to Britain is too strong to be broken because of past tensions. Read some articles. Then you'll see Britain and Ireland as closer than before. I'll keep believing whether I win the debate or not. Britain will not sit by and see Ireland suffer, it never was in their interests to let them be. Britain bailed Ireland out with 3.2 billion pounds. Ireland will rejoin in the near future. Even if Scotland leaves, Ireland will replace them.
Debate Round No. 4
WillRiley

Con

I am not anti-England, I am anti-Imperialist. You, my friend, are an Imperialist. Ireland doesn't want to be want to be controlled, or ruled, or owned. Ireland wants to be Ireland. Every act the Irish took against the English was in response to English aggression. You still do nothing to combat the point that Ireland is a sovereign nation that doesn't want to be another piece of the British Empire. Maybe the Irish are Anglo-phobic, but not without good reason. The English, in fact, are also prejudiced against the Irish, stereotyping them as a bunch of good for nothing alcoholics. As I said before, I have no problem with the English and Irish making amends. The United States and the UK and great allies, and the United States was once controlled by England but that doesn't mean that the US should join the UK.
Also, for the record, I don't hate the English, or any other nationality, but they have their own nations, and I have mine. Anyone who has paid attention to Irish history can see that the English were the ones to cause the problems.

Again, a point which you still haven't responded to, the Irish don't want to join the UK and be another piece of the British Empire, with their leader as a English Prime Minister and a English Queen. Ireland is Ireland, England is England. There is no reason for one to own the other, or be united into one nation. France has no more reason to join the UK than Ireland has.

Another point you haven't responded to, is that the head of state of the United Kingdom is the Queen of England. You yourself refer to "Her Majesty". If the UK really isn't ruled by the English, why is their head of state the QUEEN OF ENGLAND. Freedom will not be denied. If England again invades Ireland and takes it by force, the people will rebel. And probably loose. But they will keep fighting until they have their freedom, just as they did before.

Voters, as has been clearly laid out in this debate, to vote for Pro would be a vote toward Imperialism and tyranny. However, to vote for me is to vote to preserve the culture, society, and independence of a proud and wonderful nation.
YES TO INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM, NO TO IMPERIALISM.
AmericaTheFatherland

Pro

I'll answer it with one answer. The central government of the U.K. is in London. I, an imperialist? No. That's your perspective just yours. That's why people think England controls everything. The central government can only be in location and they chose it to be in London. King Henry VIII was the first English monarch to be King of Ireland. Irish nationalists believed that they were ruled by England when the real truth is the central government is located in England. Ireland rejoining the Crown tyranny? No. That's your perspective again. You have Irish republican propaganda in your 5th argument in the last paragraph. You are in favor of Irish nationalists, my friend. In the 2011 census, over 530,000 people in England and Wales identified themselves as Irish while over 40,000 were born in the Republic. The Irish formed more business in the UK than any other nationality. There are 50,000 Irish-born directors in British companies and 56,000 British companies were founded by Irish entrepreneurs. Nearly 200,000 Irish are employed as result of Ireland sending exports to Britain.
This is one way to renew the union between Ireland & Britain. Britain gave 3.2 billion pounds to the Irish for the bailout. It never was the interest Britain to see Ireland suffer. No. The Irish are a separate but a domestic to the British. The Irish are domestic to Britain, not foreign. Call me any name you want. Call me a tyrant, imperialist, West Brit, any name from the dictionary but its not going to silence me. Whether I win or lose the debate, I will not back down, never.You can never change geography. The Irish are geographically British under the British Isles of course. Ireland lacks a political union with Britain. They have a geographical union, a cultural union, an economic union, a genetic union, historical union but not a political union. The British are only separated by politics from the Irish as of that.
Ireland and Britain have the same media, same language, both support English sport teams. The head of the English Defense League is half-Irish. Using Irish nationalist Anglophobia will not cut it. Did you forget that Britain has the largest Irish community? Don't forget that. Britain & Ireland have a rugby union called the British-Irish Lions.British citizens in Ireland outnumber all non-Irish nationalities. The Irish are following what England does. Even have the same humor. In 2010, while the financial crisis of Ireland was still going on, an opinion poll in Ireland showed that 43% of Sinn Fein were in favor of ditching the Euro & adopt the sterling pound. You, my friend, are Anglophobic. These "amends" are of Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth and the United Kingdom. If Ireland was a colony of Britain, yes its imperialism but Ireland was part of the union and its called unionism. Get the facts right. 50 Irish businesses in the London Stock Exchange while Ireland's most famous export, Guinness, is owned by the British drinks firm Diageo. Despite England being Anglo-Saxon and Ireland being Celtic, study finds their is no genetic division between England and Ireland. Let bygomes be bygomes and reunite in the near future.

TRUE IRISH IS ABOUT UNITY, NOT DIVISION. UNITED EVER, DIVIDED NEVER.

Despite conflicts in the past, for better for worse, Ireland and Britain will always be united no matter what. Rise above it. And move on to cleaner, prosperous, brighter future. Ireland will always have, and always will be brothers with Britain. Ireland is British, yesterday, today, tomorrow, and forever.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by JackFritschy 2 years ago
JackFritschy
WillRileyAmericaTheFatherlandTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro never responded to a single point con made.
Vote Placed by Adam2isback 2 years ago
Adam2isback
WillRileyAmericaTheFatherlandTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: I give it to him while saying this in mind. It wasn't really England so much as Scotland that was the one ruling them. There's a reason why it's called Britain, not England. It was King James I and his men who caused havoc and conquest on Ireland. The only time an English ruler did this was one that wasn't even royalty. That being said, WillReily is correct: no one deserves to be ruled. It's inhumane and a crime against humanity.