Ironman vs Batman
Debate Rounds (5)
1.Pro assumed points
4. Weapons and tech
The pro assumes some claims about batman that simply don't hold true at all. So let us look briefly to the flaws he stated. First we see the claim that Batman is afraid of bats which may be true if a 6 yr old Bruce Wayne was fighting but after Wayne takes the mantle of the bat upon himself he accepts what he accepts his fear, comes to terms, and then uses the symbol. Second he says he is extremely paranoid with no trust....not true at all, he trusts his butler, a orphaned circus child, and a tech worker from his company with his identity. (they all sound like the close family you share secrets with). Third his unbalanced anger, which I think Pro derives from one scene based around the joker blowing up rachel with a bomb....well she is dead, and unless there is another example it proves false. Finally that he is not willing to kill. One could propose this however, please enjoy http://quickstopentertainment.com... , http://quickstopentertainment.com... ,
oh and he killed dracula, as in the vampire....yeah, look it up.
Contention 2 : secret identity
This fight would never even occur for one very important factor. Tony Stark declared who he was on the public media and news whereas Batman still has his identity hidden. Batman could simply look up stark enterprise and kill him at night, or with poison, or crash the bat car and or jet into him remotely.
Contention 3: battlefield
Batman gains an automatic edge here. When we look to where they would fight there is two things to recognize. The fact that batman only goes out at night time and the fact that he only commutes around Gotham. Ironman would have to go to the city, at night, in the dark to fight. Gotham is the dark nights home and he knows the city combined with a suit made to blend into the night. Iron man could be seen and heard miles away. His armor added to the light of a car would be blinding and just think about sneaking around while wearing a 200 plus pound metal suit.
Contention 4: Weapons and Tech
Iron man may exhibit more powerful technology but in the end it is all useless. Now why is that? tank busters and lazers and flight, how could he ever lose? The highly sophisticated targeting system could surely lock onto.....oh wait... it is at night time and it is never expressed that Iron man has any sort of night or thermal vision. Batman on the other hand has night vision,thermal vision,sonic location, and radar (yeah, another flaw with the whole metal suit concept).
A. bat-arangs - are effective as they have proven to be capable of sticking into metal and carrying either an explosive or cryogenic charge. Also they can have steel cables strong enough to bind up ironman.
B. tear gas and knock out gas - batmans utility belt carries a number of canisters and containing potent gasses and no such filtration system is presented as part of the construction of the iron man suit.
C. Sonic bat storm - even if iron man was able to use thermal or night vision we can look to the sonic emitter device in batman begins that causes a swarm of bats to flood a building masking the movements of the dark knight.
D.Grapling hook - this could be used for multiple uses, travel , wrapping up iron man, or just shooting a giant hook straight into his chest.
E. smoke bombs- evasiveness +1
F. blade arm guard - as seen in the dark knight the fore arm pad of batmans armor can shoot out 3 blades as well as work as climbing spikes and weapon breakers.
G. environmental weapon - batman is trained in over 127 martial arts formats that are deadly and even more he is a master with all weapons. (guns included)
H. the bat jet - is armed with machine guns, missles, and more importantly can be operated by remote control.
I. the bat mobile - is armed with grenade launchers and the ability to go into rapid accleration boost and can be remotly controlled.
So after all of these weapons and eamples Pro needs to prove what iron man has that gives and advantage. Also, that suit is not indestructible. After being shot by a US jet fighter machine gun in Iron man (I) the suit is damaged and difficult for stark to take off once home. Also when fighting war machine his suit is damaged by unguided chain gun fire and a huge flaw. His battery runs out and the altitudes freeze his suit up. Batman never has these issues and ice? please, he beats dr.freeze on numerous occasion.
Ultimately we have no reason to vote for iron man.Would iron man win in broad daylight on a flat field. Well most likely, but such a scenario would never occur. To demand such a premise would be silly. It is no different than supposing batman should have to fight all muggers by walking up to them and introducing himself first. Obviously we want to keep the characters true to their selves in this battle and batman would never enter a 1v1 public duel.
The rage I spoke of was actually several accounts of incidents like the Joker torturing Robin and Batman ultimately killed him, breaking his oath and sinking to their level. There are certain conditions that would cause them to fight one another. For example in MARVEL vs DC comics #3 c.1994 Batman had to fight to defend his universe from destruction wile fighting Captain America who was doing the same. In the end it was Batman who won but as he himself stated "it was just a stroke of luck". They were fighting in the sewers and just as Captain America threw his sheild there was a pipe that emptied out and flooded the sewers, knocking the sheild out of the way just as it was about to strike Batman. As for secret identities, even after Stark revealed he was Ironman and other villains tried to attack him while he was Stark, he always had a backup plan a suitcase suit etc.
As for battlefield Batman would not get the edge, while I am sure that if they were fighting at night as the case may be Batman would have a tech proof cape to blend into the wall or ground or somthing, still he would reveal himself sooner or later and when he did, Stark would be all over him with missiles and bullets.
Now for the weapons and tech argument. You said it yourself, he has more powerful technology. As I mentioned before there is no reason to believe that the Ironman suit does not have thermal or night vision, even if by some drastic oversight in the design they were left out it can detect heartbeats through walls and target multiple subjects lightning fast. While Ironman has had suit damage in the past from TANKS, JETS and Ironmonger, had Batmann gone up against them in just his suit they would have torn him apart. Gold-Titanium alloy> Kevlar bullet proof vest. Now lets do this one by one.
A. Bat-arangs- an effective weapon against people dressed up like clowns or a dude hopped up on steroids but would not do much damage to a suit that can withstand a direct hit from tanks and electric whips. The steel cables strong enough to bind him are a joke. Bane rips through them all the time and Ironman is five times stronger.
B. Tear gas and knock out gas- What the hell do you think he wears a helmet for? Style? You seriously underestimate the design of the suit, Stark has an IQ of 260 why would he not put in a filter?
C. Sonic bat storm- Does the phrase "Bug on a windsheild" mean anything to you? He is in a heavily armored suit, why the hell would he worry about bats?
D. Grapling hook- The grapling hook Batman carries has failed him before, it is not strong enough to penetrate concrete why would it penetrate the suit?
E. Smoke bombs- Evasiveness does not really help much with a state of the art tracking system following you.
F. Blade arm guard- In the movie they served as a distraction, not really hurting the Joker at all, so if they could barely break the skin they would not do much against armor.
G. Environmental weapon- Batman is trained in several different kinds of martial arts but not 127, in fact there are not 127 forms of martial arts in existance. He is a master of some weapons, not all of them, and name one time he has EVER used a gun, not that it would make much differance. On top of that Ironman> kung fu fist. If Batman tried anything like that against Ironman it might send him into a coma induced by laughter.
H. The Bat-jet- Big deal, like Ironman can be taken out by a jet.
I. The Batmobile- This fancy toy would be nothing more than fodder after one hit by a tank missile, it cant even withstand a bazooka hit.
So after all of thes weapons and EXAMPLES were proved useless or pointless Con has to prove that Batman would not utterly fail given the situation. Lets see his battery run out after he synthisized an element thought impossible to make. Face it Batman's biggest threats are a clown, a rich guy that squawks, a lady dressed up like a cat, a crazed botonist, and a guy that flips coins.
The fact of the matter is Ironman is smarter, has better tech, is stronger, faster, can fly, and has the potential for mass destruction. A feature Batman does not have, plus didn't Batman accidently almost doom the world when he created Brother Eye out of paranoia? It is obvious you get all your information from the movies and maybe some tidbits from a comic book or two but you truly know nothing about either of them.
The sides for Iron man and Batman have both agreed that sources can be drawn from comics, movies, and shows alike. This seems fair enough and I ask that we keep this in mind as we proceed.
Killing and gun use:
Pro claims that I contradict but I very clearly gave links to original comic panels displaying batman both killing and holding and using a handgun. ( I also noted that he has killed by name, Dracula) Unless he makes a new argument, we can not let ignoring my sources a winning point.
These have been proven to be weaker and if you were poisoned or killed in your sleep it would not make a difference. As a master of stealth alarm systems would be useless.
Pro gives counter evidence of a scenario where Batman killed joker. Yet would it not be A.proof he is lethal? B.proof he has killed? and C. Pro will will have to show how breaking an oath makes his combat lesser. (we are debating a battle, not morality/integrity)
Large note on Captain American battle? :
Not sure what Pro is trying to establish, I suppose it was luck in a fight with captain america but we are note discussing that and even if Iron man and Captain america were synonymous we still see Batman winning according to the comics.
Batman has a definitive advantage here. I have no idea where the element of surprise and first strike is not a benefit. Furthermore, batman is not just "revealed" he can sink back into the shadows. Finally, as to being killed with missles or ect. I have given examples such as the smoke grenades, darkness, and sonic bat storm as to why targeting would not work.
Let us look to a key argument, the targeting system. We agreed to go off sources but all the Pro has said is that we should assume he has thermal or night vision. He needs to provide a source or why can I not assume Bruce Wayne to have an emp (he does make military weapons). Even if he did have thermal/night vision I gave examples of how the sonic bat storm would create enough heat signatures to blind him and smoke grenades defeat night vision.
Then we look to suit comparison, Pro suggests if Batman had fought the same villains.... that is not the topic. It is a fight against iron man and Kevlar can stop bullets.
Refutation on Bat Weaponry:
A.Batarangs have proven to stick into metal and it is the explosive and cryogenic charges that deal the damage. Also, if vital joints we hit the suit would become useless.
B. The helmet is for a visual displays but Pro yet again says that it is stupid to assume there is no filter but we need a source. If pro can just claim that Stark would think of it there is an equally endless supply of assumptions I could make that Wayne would possess ex. EMP, large magnet , corrosive acid, seeker missiles, and why could he not possess weapons like the freeze ray and freeze the suit systems. (because assumptions are untrue and unfair)
C. Pro missed my point here, the bats make a shield that would blind targeting,sight, lock-ons, and heartbeat detection as well as thermals and night vision.
D. Increases mobility and could make a distraction.
E. Tracking systems have already proven to be faulty.
F. The blades stick into joker and the metal cabinet when first shot. (the case covering iron mans life supply is only glass.
G. I will give a linked source backing these facts, and Pro obviously ignored my first links which display batman manning a machine gun and wielding a pistol on the original detective comics. (comicvine.com)
H.The bat jet ....... Pro stated "While Ironman has had suit damage in the past from TANKS, JETS and Ironmonger," so I would assume what a jet could do is damage the suit just like you suggested it has in the past.
I. the batmobile could be destroyed but with remote controls it makes a mulit-point strike along side the jet and batman.
Next Pro tries to trivialize all of batman's villains but he has also battled Dracula,darksied, brainiac, and more. So who does iron man fight? middle east terrorist, or maybe the Mandarin, ( a dragon wizard with no real weapons) and all other suit based villains are weaker knock off of his tech.
So in conclusion we look to the final pro comment where he suggest Iron man is smarter by backing it with evidence than Iron man made mistakes that led to an almost doomed world. The link here is abundantly silly.
We see that unless Iron man's side can make up better logic than "he is smart, he would have thought of that" then we have to look to cited facts and vote for batman.
I await the next round and ask everyone to remember, The dark knight is the hero that Gotham deserves and the hero that deserves your vote.
Killing and gun use:
While I did take a look at the links, you did in fact contradict yourself, of course by accident I am sure buuuut, you still did it.
They are strong enough to withstand electric whips that can cut through a car, I am pretty sure a Batgrenade would not do much. As for the master of stealth, the JARVIS home system not to mention dozens of SHEILD agents on duty around Stark tower and the Stark mansion would definitely put him to the test. Not saying he can not be up to the challenge but I am saying he would have a very difficult time. However, in this scenerio he is actually fighting IRONMAN not TONY STARK. If I said Tony Stark vs Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark vs Batman, yeah it would be passable, but this is Ironman vs Batman, do try and stay focused now.
Anyone who has ever been in a fight will tell you that rage is never a good thing, in order to win you have to have a clear head and know what you are doing. Blowing up and seeing red are the fastest way to getting your butt kicked. Batman has shown unchecked rage in the past which some of his supervillains have exploited.
Large note on Captain America battle:
I was trying to establish a scenerio in which Ironman and Batman would be fighting by saying that Batman and Captain America have fought before, both are good guys but each was trying to save his universe. Ironman and Batman could find themselves in a situation like that.
Element of surprise and first strike are definitely a benifit, for someone else. Because the Ironman suit is so advanced it doesn't even have to see a target to know it is there. Ironman flies through an alleyway looking for Batman and he leaps from the shade and throws a flying kick or throws some fancy gadget he just so happened to have on him that day, the Ironman suit would pick up on it faster than the human body can react and retaliate. Finally, as to being killed with missiles... Hey watch this (Take note of 1:08 (showing how truly useless he was in the battle) and 3:09 (Where the Joker blew him up)) From the looks of it all the smoke bombs and batstorms really did not help at all.
You want sources? Fine, my argument suggested they were not needed because it would not only be a waste of space but also a waste of time. However you want sources so here they are: http://www.comicvine.com... (These are a list of Ironman's powers from comicvine.com, in it you will see super sight, radar vision, and targeting system) for further links proving he has night and thermal vison you may go to: Ironmanarmory.com and Marvel.com Now while the bats may work as a distraction or a decoy, you assume that the Ironman visor could not pick out person from a group of bats or see through smoke, it can pick up on heartbeats through concrete walls why would it not pick up on Batman's? As for the EMP the Ironman suit has several actually, it would not damage it at all seeing as the suit runs on a chemical reaction from the Stark element and not electricity. And yes kevlar CAN stop bullets but, what it can't stop are: High velocity bullets, lasers, repulsar rays, missiles, and bombs all of which the Ironman suit has.
Refutation on Bat weaponry:
A. Batarangs have proven to stick into metal yes, but unless Batman can throw twelve batarangs at a time without leaving himself open with precise and perfect precision then the attack would fail.
B. Already covered this, magnets don't work on titanium or gold, seeing as the suit is a gold-titanium alloy I doubt magnets would work, and actually Batman DOES posess weapons like the freeze ray, but in case you didn't know he "solved the freezing problem". As for corrosive acid, there is no such acid that can dissolve through wood completely in seconds much less a gold-titanium alloy suit. And finally for seeker missiles- Flares.
C. Already covered this as well
D. No not really, a grappling hook would be pretty useless in this fight.
E. When were they proven faulty? When he took out twelve terrorists in half a second without harming any civilians? Or was it when it targeted dozens of drones chasing him through a city avoiding all fire and taking them out one by one, until they were all ultimately cut in half by lasers?
F. You say that as if it makes a differance, its blades on a spring, how advanced...
G. Even IF Batman were an expert on guns, which he may be at studying them but not actually using them, Ironman has ten times the guns and expert systems to back them up.
H. Again you act like it is a big deal, like Ironman can't take out a plane.
I. Two tank missiles and a gun problem solved. And while Batman fiddles with the remote controls Ironman blows up the toys and then takes out Batman.
Actually I do not trivialize Batman's villains, they do a pretty good job of that themselves. Plus aren't Darkseid and Braniac Superman villains? Last time I checked they were. Ironman fights Whirlwind, Mandarin, Ironmonger, Whiplash, Titanium man, the Crimson Dynamo, and all their respective armies and minions. You know ACTUAL bad guys not just silly clowns or crazy cat ladies. Not even going near the whole Robin thing.
I am not going to end on a corny quote, like Batman uses all the time, asking for your vote, only that you see reason, Ironman would not come out of the fight unscathed but he would win.
Let us first look to his opening statement where pro claims " I AM saying that YOU said he had never killed then YOU said he killed contradicting yourself." and a little further down, "Killing and gun use: While I did take a look at the links, you did in fact contradict yourself, of course by accident I am sure buuuut, you still did it." Obviously this seems like a serious issue but the point is null because I did not say that he never killed. For the second time I even stated in my first speech a reference of killing dracula. I challenge the Pro to improve his conduct and also quote me on where this contradiciton was stated. If he is referencing where I said " Finally, that he is not willing to kill. One could propose this however, please enjoy (links pursued). " This was a serial of arguments I placed so the intro "finally" means it is the last point I am refuting and the "that he is not willing to kill" is simply me citing the Pro argument I was going to attack. Looking to the next sentence " one could propose this" .....it is a hypothetical....which I then give sources to prove false.
Now onto extreme paranoia, Pro cites the brother eye incident and acts like I am ignorant "you know about that right?". What he fails to mention is that batman found corruption in the justice league and had has memory wiped (then slowly regained) at which point he worked to save the world and did. If anything this is an example of how batman saved earth just like he saved Gotham countless times.
Looking at the secret identity argument I placed at the first round. Pro makes the argument the this is Ironman vs Batman and not Tony Stark. That is silly. Iron Man is a persona of Stark and therefore the fact that he revealed his identity is definitely evidence in this debate. Pro can't just choose every fact that should be allowed in this debate, he should accept all claims based in sources and citation just as I do.
The rage point still proves silly as no examples have been given where rage was actually a massive detriment or existing as the pro supposes. If anything batman has the most control of self holding to ideas and values where as Ironman flaunts his powers and kills pretty much whoever he wants because he can do it.
Now let us address the battlefield scenario. Pro says that we could find the two heroes fighting outside of Gotham but in his captain america example they were in a sewer pipe (like subterranean Gotham). So ultimately the environment still favored Batman and now we need to look to Pros argument on battlefield edge.
The battlefield edge goes hand in hand with technology. So pro claims the element of surprise is useless as the Ironman suit can respond and retaliate faster than a human can act. This is blatantly false because Stark controls the suit, and no such automated defense response is sourced or seen elsewhere. So yes, explosive batarangs in the back would still deal damage. Also, the video pro uses can not be allowed in the debate. It is A.from a video game B. is intended to promote players to play both villains and heros, and C. Allows you to choose your own plot line making it Non-Cannon because each player can redefine the marvel/dc universe.
TAKE NOTE READERS: To settle this targeting system deal. Pro needs to stop whining and start debating, he gives three sources which are fraudulent. Not one contains mention of thermal or night vision. (I used there search engines....it is not there) SO pro argues that it doesn't matter, the suit can detect heartbeats.I will sight the sonic bat strom for the 5th time most likely. it is a wall of mammals. As in, they all have heart beats and heat signatures blocking any thermal,night, or heartbeat detection. I give you multiple reasons why his detection would fail. Pro just gives you the opinion "why couldn't he?" ......i just stated why. Please provide real reason or evidence of how this would work.
As for Emp's and freeze rays my opponent ignored that I called these unfair examples but since he wants to attack them I will defend. The emp would not shut down the suit, but it would fry the electronics that control display and the jarvis uplink (....targeting gone) and as for the freeze ray we see that Iron man would become useless as motors and hydraulics would lock. The freezing issue he fixes is from high altitude not from a high tech device that makes solid blocks in seconds.
A. Pro's refutation of batarangs fails because he neglects to address my now three times stated point that it is not the small metal bats but the explosive charges and cryogenic blasts.
B. Pro references magnets which I said in round 2 to be an non-admissible weapons but he ignores my actually point B which was tear gas and knock out gas. Still yet to see that filtration system reference. So we must assume it to be effective and thus allowing Batman to win easily.
C. Pro missed my point here, the bats make a shield that would blind targeting,sight, lock-ons, and heartbeat detection as well as thermals and night vision. He did address but link to my above text as to how Ironman fails.
D. Pro claims a grapling hook to be useless but I disagree, Increases mobility and could make a distraction.
G. We need to see that Batmans expert skills on martial arts really would play a role. We can look to Iron Man's comic vine bios and see that ironman weighs a total of around 280ish pounds. Batman has taken down opponents with a much greater size and weight. Furthermore, explosives and long range weapons becomes completely unusable in close range combat.
H.Just going to repeat myself , The bat jet ....... Pro stated "While Ironman has had suit damage in the past from TANKS, JETS and Ironmonger," so I would assume what a jet could do is damage the suit just like Pro suggested it has in the past.
In conclusion, this round has shown that Pro simply lacks the evidence and defenses necessary to deal with the sundry and multi-functional arsenal of weapons and devices Batman has. Pro has yet to touch on the batarangs, answer the targeting issue, answer the more important debate of knock out gas which would end the fight automatically, and finally the battlefield and battlefield edge.
When we look into the arguments for Iron man we see his record flawed with no sources which ultimately shows that this insanely intelligent playboy can make weapons but not anticipate the needs for fighting against all forms of enemies .
Final note: Just for fun, on the quote at the bottom I argue having more clever writers in turn leads to the ingenuity of some of the solutions and victories Batman achieves. So corny or not.... at least he doesn't battle a lame asain dragon wizard with no powers.
Now onto extreme paranoia, Con says he knew about the Brother Eye incident but I highly doubt this is true, regardless, Batman did sense corruption in the JL but it was his general lack of trust that spawned it. Brother Eye for those who do not know was a computer program connected by dozens of sattelites and computers, it gathered information on every JL member, aliases, alter ego's, weaknesses etc. But then it became sentient and attacked the JL almost dooming the Earth. Way to go Bats.
What is so silly about a logical argument I ask? This is a fight between Batman and Ironman in the streets of Gotham or some other city, a single fight, no initial intel, and from two people from completely differant universes. Ironman vs Batman, both in full gear, not Tony Stark vs Batman. Not to mention if it was Tony Stark vs Bruce Wayne Tony would win anyway because Bruce does not fight he runs, he protects his secret identity that much. Regardless the notion of Batman sneaking in at night and poisoning Tony Stark is just silly seeing as they are both engaged in a fictional battle.
I do not have to give examples of how rage is bad, it is common fact. If you have anger issues you get out of control, you get out of control you make mistakes, simple as that. Truth be told Con is quite astute in regards to the flaunting of powers and killing whoever he wants by Ironman point, however, Ironman kills whoever he wants but the people he wants to kill are dangerous and life threatening, it is not like he just flies down to Wal-mart and blasts the greeter in the face because he did not smile, no he is killing murderous terrorists or maniacs with deadly power rings with armies.
Now let us address the battlefeild scenerio, Con COMPLETELY misunderstood what I was trying to say in this point, I was trying to give a reason as to WHY they would fight not WHERE they would fight. It is the simple crossover mechanism, an all powerful being compels the two heroes to fight for the safty of their universe, the fight between Cap and Bats ended up in the sewers, I am not saying that's where Ironman and Batman would fight. But ask yourself this Con, what would happen if they did not fight in Gotham? What if it was New York or LA? What if it was daytime? But for Con's sake to make things easier for him let us just say that it is night and it is Gotham.
I ask how Con can say there is no automated targeting system on the Ironman suit? It is in every comic, every game, every movie. How else could he kill twelve terrorists in half a second? Does the suit know what he is thinking? Is he pressing buttons in the gauntlets? No the JARVIS system is targeting them based on artificial intelligence data. So no batarangs in the back would not do any damage because they would never reach him. Also if Con wishes to ignore the video because it ultimately destroys his argument, well there is nothing I can say except that I pity him. The video was NOT gameplay, it was a trailor made by DC, they even made it into a comic, just like Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 was made into a comic, the civil war series. The video game was a MMO, meaning that while parts are non canon, on the whole it is still DC and every level, every quest, every mission, was written by DC. To be fair if Con were to come up with a ligitimate video or SOURCE that contradicted anything I say, I would concede to that point, but it seems Con just wants to ignore facts that counter his argument.
Which one of my sources were fraudulent? What makes them fraudulent? The fact you had to do some delving and probably gave up? Sorry my sources were not little pictures that have no relevance in this argument because they are outdated. I challenge Con to prove that Batman has " night vision,thermal vision,sonic location, and radar" with actual sources, because to me, it looks like he just has eyes poking through a rubber mask. Does he have gadgets that can see in different modes? Yes but they are not interchangable, they don't just switch from one mode to the next, the Ironman suit can do that but then again according to Con it is like the visor and helmet are just a rubber mask as well completely useless. So far Con's strongest argument is the bat veil. Again, they would be nothing more than bugs on a windsheild, not really serving any purpose unless they clung to Batman in giant clumps as bullet sheilds. They do not hide him, at all, he is big they are tiny and spaced out, not really the most challinging game of where's waldo.
Con claimed that the EMP's and freeze rays were an unfair example, I say bring them on because I can actually defend Ironman with facts. Con said it himself, the EMP would not shut down the suit, but fry the electronics. This is true, in the Civil War issues (source) Captain America tricked Ironman into taking an electronic disruptor through a false handshake, shorting out his suit... For a few seconds, in moments the suit was completely back online. An EMP would not do much because Stark has secondary power systems just in case of an EMP attack as demonstrated above. As for the freeze ray, even if the blas hit him and froze him, he would be out in seconds through the use of his repulsar rays, flaps, and chest ray, no damage to joints or systems because it is ice... Not explosions, not Thor's hammer, not Hulk fists... Ice... Easily breakable ice, have every one of Mr. Freezes victims died instantly from being frozen? Nope, most of them make it out without any super powers much less a suit of armor.
A. Even if the automated targeting system did not stop the batarangs and that is a big if, they would still not do much damage at all, the suit can withstand bombs, tank shells, and bullets, it can take a few exploding toys.
B. Let me ask you this Con, can you breathe in space? In the upper atmosphere even? I know I can't, neither can Tony Stark. So how is he able to get to such high altitudes without passing out? Simple, his own renewable oxygen supply, gas grenades would not do anything because of the helmet, it would be like using it on a scuba diver or pilot with an oxygen mask.
C. Make that sentence readable and I might be able to refute it, as of right now it does not make sense. "He did address but link to my above text as to how Ironman fails"--???
D. No the grappling hook would still be useless.
G. Ironman can lift cars and giant robots, do not make this a test of strength you will lose, and he has plenty of close range weapons, repulsar rays and the chest ray to name a few.
I would refute the last few arguments but it appears I have run out of word space, I will use what little I have to say, Con gravely underestimates Ironman.
First Half= Pro Failures
Sources: One would provide sources when a claim is challenged to work as evidence. Mine prove batman in past comics has killed and does use guns. Pro must think I am saying his sources are bad. They are great sources, but none of them have evidence of thermal or night vision, and no reference to the filtration system. If Pro directed me or us to the direct page that would be fine.
Battleground: Pro agress to Gotham at night and the Con accepts gladly
Rage: There still has been no evidence really given and Pro just assumes it is bad. The hulk has to have rage to win and I would still argue Batman angry or not holds true to values ie. super ego trumping id.
Extreme paranoia: I will admit that I had to go find an wikia on brother eye, but my past ignorance doesn't change the fact that if anything, Batman's "paranoia" was justified since there really was a threat and corruption in league. (in addition to his memory being wiped)
The auto-targeting: Even if I do accept the system run by JARVIS the issue is that lightning reflexes are useless if blindsided. My opponent also lent credibility to the emp and ice ray but did note that it will only be a few seconds delay. That is all it takes though for targeting and reflexes to be useless and then batman strikes, rinse wash and repeat and the dark knight comes out on top.
Video Game Trailer: Though created by DC the MMO is unadmissable because the possibility of varying plot lines. Kratos from God of war 1,2,3, made a cameo in Mortal Kombat but would we judge Kratos based on individual versus matches in another game. Obviously not, we see that even the trailer is subjective because I could play batman in game on simply beat the joker in story line which debunks the trailer were joker hits batman with a missile. If Pro does bring a source from the comic book then it would be believable, until then he holds burden of proof.
Attacking Batman Sources: My images as stated proved my points but I am more than willing to provide additional sources since Pro says " I challenge Con to prove that Batman has " night vision,thermal vision,sonic location, and radar" . As for sonic location we look to the 2nd nolan film "The Dark Night" in which Batman uses an array of city cellphones to create a sonic location imaging with wireless feed into his mask. As for radar we can look to the original adam west Batmobile which featured a radar for tracking criminals (of course this is not how real radars work but it was adam west). As for night/thermal vision we can look to the animated masterpiece "Batman: Gotham Knight" in which he uses thermal vision in the sewers against killer croc and night vision against a bullet assassin.
Targeting again: I ask all voters to just draw this point across the debate for Batman. Except for the accepted heartbeat detector all other detection of Iron man has yet to be Proven and the sonic bat storm accompanied by smoke bombs, camouflage, and night proves to be a deterrent to all of Iron man's possible systems. Also to my opponents comparison of a where waldo game we can look to the movie " Batman Begins" to see that the bat swarm not only breaks glass threw but blacks out an entire building hallway from clear visibility.
Again we will run down the list of weapons and refutations to add clarity.
A. Batarangs summation: while the batarangs my not hold up to tank shells on damage we can conclude that combined with an emp or freeze ray as my opponent admitted a time delay could allow successful damage and if we look to the sticky bomb gun in "The Dark Knight" we see the explosions shatter glass. what is iron mans power source cover but thick glass?
B.Tear and Knock out gas summation - We see that the suit may have some oxygen supply but without source we can only imagine that the suit can take in and store oxygen temporarily. So when air is available a suprise attack may involve the take in of knock out gas and the fight is over. (I am only being fair since Ironman has known filter, no tanks to store gas, no anything visible)
C. My sentence did make sense: "He did address (Pro addresed or refuted) but link (even so look back at the top) to my above text( the text I wrote above) as to how Ironman fails (Ironman fails)"--???" - this referenced our debate on the sonci bat storm and in round 3 I made commentary and still due that it is victorious.
D. Grappling hook summation: I think every one agrees it could be used to move,dodge, or distract. Try to not be distracted if someone shot a hook at your face.
G. Combat summation: Though Iron Man Has his defenses we find that with expertise a quick broken arm or dislocated limbs the lasers and pulsars in Ironman's hands and feet become useless and impossible to aim.
End of refutation.
Second Half = Why Batman should win.
1. The Battleground
Pro and Con have both agreed that the setting is Gotham at night, giving Batman an inherent edge
Batman shows to have a series of weapons that prove to deal damage without one shot killing but the combinaation would wear down Iron Man in seconds. This includes the batarangs,emp's,freeze rays, the bat jet and batmobile. and more.
Being a master of the city,night, stealth, and combat, Batman is very capable of defending himself or avoiding harm.
In Conclusion, we see that it was not Con that underestimates IronMan but Pro who supposes Batman is just human. He may be a human, but the movies,comics, and tales have truly shown that he might as well have superstrength, speed, or intellect because he has refined himself due to dedication to justice and values
1. In the clip made by DC, despite the fact that it was made into a comic, Con assumes it was gameplay footage, when in fact it was the actual storyline, in the game you make your own original character, you can not play as Batman or Joker.
2. The only evidence and links that Con has used were pictures of ancient comics showing either Batman with a gun, or him about to kill someone, however the comics themselves are so outdated Con might as well use the Adam West versions (Which he has... RADAR? Really?) as I have stated before it would be inadmissable because Batman would just whip out his anti-Ironman batspray.
3. I am putting an end to this, Con obviously did not read the links this one was off of Ironmanarmory.com and I quote "The ultrasound scan combines with the thermal imaging to project realistic visual images on the HUD of Iron Man's surrounding environments and/or enemies. When combined with Infrared sensors in aggressive scan mode, IM can fight in total darkness." So stop saying he cant see in the dark it was silly from the beginning. As for a filtration system, the man can breathe in space and underwater, how the hell do you think he is doing that? Seriously...
Now in the battle neither opponent has proper prep time, just going off from what they normaly have on them, that means no EMP's no Freeze ray for Batman, no Hulkbuster suit, no additional sheilding for Ironman.
Night falls on an exact replica of Gotham, but it is only a battleground, no citizens, nobody except a flying, armored man, and a shady man lurking in the shadows and alleyways. They are both on the side of good but must do battle for the sake of their universe's saftey. Ironman flies over the city looking for his target, the suit picks up the roar of a jet engine and he turns around to find the Batjet flying towards him with guns and missiles firing, it seems as though Batman saw Ironman first. Ironman quickly deploys flares and blocks the incoming missiles, firing his own weapons at the unmanned aircraft, as the Jet flies by him he quickly grabs on to the wing, hanging on as the Jet takes him for a ride, using his repulsar ray on his hand he blows a hole in the glass cockpit, frying the controls within, sending the Batjet spiraling out of control and crashing. Ironman quickly searches the city to find Batman hiding in a building under construction, Batman leaps from the shade throwing several Batarangs. As they are thrown they are instantly targeted and blown away by Ironman's shoulder bullets. Batman fires a grappling hook at Ironman that catches his leg, Ironman quickly flies around swinging Batman into a building, as he lets go and falls he glides down to the street below, gunfire following every step. Quickly Batman pulls a device from his boot and clicks it sending a storm of bats his way to give him cover. As the bats surround the device Ironman blows holes through the thick mass of flying mammals, only to find that Batman is not there. Detecting motion the suit elevates out of the way of Batman attacking from behind. A tank like vehicle pulls up and fires its guns, finding himself out of flares, Ironman is knocked to the ground by the heavy fire, quickly after getting up he fires a tankbuster missile at the car, blowing it up beyond repair. Now it was just Batman and Ironman standing across from each other, no jets, no guns, no cars, no missiles. Batman screams with rage as he rushes over to Ironman flying at him with a kick, Ironman quickly fires his chest ray and knocks Batman to the ground ten feet away. As Batman groans on the ground from the massive impact force Ironman steps on top of his chest to keep him from getting up. Just as it looks like victory, Batman throws knockout gas in Ironman's face. Not doing anything but knocking him back in a daze temporarily Ironman looks down to find Batman had escaped. He cautiously looks around expecting an ambush attack, out of nowhere a thud hits his suit followed by beeping, he had been hit with a stickybomb on his back. As the bomb exploded it knocked Ironman down. Quickly getting up and taking off into flight another bomb flies past him, after seeing where the shot was being fired, he quickly flies over to the source, another bomb hitting his stomach. Ironman reaches Batman and wraps his arms around him, making it impossible for Batman to move, the bomb detonates blowing both of them apart, Ironman is okay with some suit damage while Batman is out for the fight. Ironman takes off wearily knowing that he had won and his universe was safe.
As you will find in the fight I was completely fair to both sides of the argument and even giving some benifit of the doubt to Con. I never said Ironman would win without a scratch, but in the end, he would win. As for round two, assuming Batman survived the explosion, Batman would win because everytime Batman is defeated he comes up with a solution for round two. But round three Ironman would win, because like Batman he would think his way around any obstacle. But as for this round Ironman would win.
I obviously reject the fight presented and the reason why is that all the weapons and points that Pro has ignored or never adressed have been left out entirely.
So let us take a final look at the points pro has yet to cover or refute.
1. Cryogenic charge batarangs: have never been addressed, so freeze ray or not iron man's systems have to fight the freeze.
2.remote control: Pro ignored in his story that as the fight is going on the bat jet of mobile can function as autonomous individuals causing 3 directions of attack.
3. The sonic bat storm: I hate to have to site this again but pro has never made any legitimate claims as to how he will deal with this. Even with his source it doesn't refute that thermals,heartbeat, and ultrasound would be useless.
4.The glass: I made the point in about 2-3 separate rounds that the life source of iron man is only defended by a thick glass casing which could be destroyed by explosives or freezing and shattering.
5.Combat: although pro did give some examples of how Iron man can fight close range he never really refutes my claim on Irom man's weight being easily low enough for batman to punish.
6.Gotham: pro accepted that the fight be in gotham at night but never really acknowledge batmans knowledge of the city
7. Paranoia and rage: Pro completely drops these points as I provided evidence of corruption and called sources for the rage faults. I would think that con solidly disproves.
We see that these factors make batman have a decided edge and eventually, if not swiftly, win.
Thank you to any readers, commenters , or voters. We thank you for your time and thank you Pro for this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by NewCreature 5 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Con showed how what everyone already knew, that Batman is superior to Iron Man.
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