The Instigator
alt310
Pro (for)
The Contender
EXOPrimal
Con (against)

Is Being Transgender Okay?

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Debate Round Forfeited
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/23/2017 Category: People
Updated: 2 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 425 times Debate No: 104585
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (10)
Votes (0)

 

alt310

Pro

GENDER is between the ears.
Sex is between the legs. Get these two EASY ideas straight first.
We don't "want" to be the opposite gender. Nor is being transgender a choice. It's not a lifestyle choice, or a style. Transgender people feel like their mind thinks like the opposite gender. It's not about "learning to love yourself". We feel the need to change our bodies because... Well think about it. Do you know what it's like to look in the mirror and feel disgusted? Don't want to even have sex as your gender? Screw science. We'll be who we are inside, and I don't care what biology has to say about it. Its better than lying to yourself that you're the gender you were called at birth, when inside you're not.
Then realize that when a transgender person goes on hormones they literally change gender over a long period of time. The human body changes the LOOK based on hormones and YES, a man can grow breasts in the process, it happens all of the time.
I don't believe that, because 87% of America actually accepts LGBT and gender identity different people in 2015. Today, transgender and LGBT are widely accepted in the U.S. military, on television, on reality shows, in movies, in music and a LOT of them -- over 1 MILLION in the United States alone and 30 MILLION worldwide -- find themselves in meaningful relationships, friendships and jobs.
You need to also understand that two checkboxes do NOT say it all...that's bias...don't believe me ? Ok, here's a test --
And then consider Asian countries as well. Thailand reverse transgender people based almost entirely on the Buddhist religion which is older than the bible. Buddha once said of transgender people -- "They're a gift from God..." and so they are widely accepted in their country openly and welcome in any home.
Additionally, in India the Hijrah (third sex) or feminine male has become a literal sex by law. They live amongst a billion people with zero repercussions....and many of them come to the USA to live and work side by side with us...
You have to realize that your own little pond is not indicative of what the world things or sees or even wants to think. There are far more genders than there are stars in the skies and all things being equal, roughly 90% of the world accepts transgender people as completely normal...something to think about during your tirades...you are in the minority... The world is changing...change with it or you'll be left behind....
EXOPrimal

Con

Being transgender is not “okay”, it is a mental illness. The American Psychiatric Organization has classified gender dysphoria as a mental illness(1). There is no reason that we should be accepting transgender people as what they think they are, they are in danger. You would not tell a skinzophrenic that the television was talking to them, so you cannot let a transgendered person say that they are a different gender.
The transgendered suicide rate is upwards of 40%(2)the only comparable rate of suicide is jews during the holocaust. In no way does society attack transgendered people in the way german society attacked jews, I do not see any gas chambers. Gender Dysphoria is a dangerous mental illness and is not “okay”, transgender people should seek treatment and not hormone therapy.

1.https://www.psychiatry.org...
2.https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu...
Debate Round No. 1
alt310

Pro

Well this is where medical science comes in. Brain scans show that male and female brains behave differently. Transgender brain scans show that the persons body does not match the brain. Soooo, this is not a choice. Did you choose to be your sex, or have you always known? Did you gravitate towards boys when looking for friends at school? Lets put it another way:

Bad news. You have been in an accident. You wake up in hospital. You body is encased in plaster and you are soo beat up your own mother would not recognize you, let alone what sex you were. No worries, the morphine is keeping you nice and numb. You try to remember what happened, but you realize you are having trouble remembering anything. So no name, no childhood memories, you don't even know what your mother looks like. Simple question time. Male or female? Now you are into core being territory. You might say your sole. So is the knowledge that you are m/f a choice, or just what you are?
EXOPrimal

Con

Round 2 Argument: "Well this is where medical science comes in"
Round 1 Argument: "Screw science"

Hypocrisy alert, make up your mind. You cannot just accept some science and reject others, in fact genetic science is much more credible, as brain scans are still evolving. Genetic evidence can be accepted in court, brain scans cannot. I personally believe that brain scans are correct, but I also believe in genetics.

In no way am I rejecting the fact that trans people believe they are the other gender, or act like it. But only a fool would say there is nothing wrong with that. I ask you a simple question, why is the transgender suicide rate upwards of 45%? It is because believing that you are a different sex that what you are born is harmful. You have not addressed my claim that trans people have a mental illness, because you cannot. In what world do we accept a mental illness as good. Again, you do not tell a skitzophrenic that the radio is talking to him, you do not tell someone with PTSD that his dreams are reality, and you do not tell a trans person he/she is the other gender.

Round 1 Argument: "Its better than lying to yourself that you're the gender you were called at birth, when inside you're not."
You know what's better than both of your options? Treatment, to make a trans person believe that they are the correct sex. We have tried accepting trans people, as you have said - 85% of people accept trans people. Why is the suicide rate rising? Why do millions of humans that can grow up to be productive members of society kill themselves? As Ben Shapiro said, "Why are we mainstreaming delusion?"

Round 1 argument: "actually accepts LGBT and gender identity different people in 2015"
Argumentum ad populum - Argumentum ad populum(Appeal to popularity) is a fallacy based on the assumption that the opinion of the majority is always valid: that is, everyone believes it, so you should too.

Round 1 argument: "find themselves in meaningful relationships, friendships and jobs."
And over 45% of trans people find themselves in a coffin.

Round 1 Argument: And then consider Asian countries as well
argumentum ad verecundiam(Appeal to authority) - Using an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.

Governments are not authorities on psychology

Round 2 Argument: "Male or female?"
What happens is the doctor draws the patients blood, tests for the presence of a Y chromosome. if there is a Y chromosome, the victim is male, if these is not, the victim is female. Gender is not disconnected from sex, that is ridiculous. I cannot magically change my age, I cannot magically change my race, I cannot magically change my gender.

In Conclusion, Pro has failed to refute any of my arguments so they go conceded, and his arguments are littered with contradictory and fallacious statements. Because of this, Pro has no platform and it is only logical to vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
alt310

Pro

Ok first of all, there's a 14 year old "dude" at my high school. He goes by "Link" and TEACHERS LET HER USE THE BOYS BATHROOM AND HE TAKES MALE PHYS ED, WHICH I THINK IS WRONG. He claims he is a "straight guy that likes girls". Ok, but another guy told him that he's never gonna find a girl in life. And Link says that he dates straight girls and he's not picky on looks. But then the kid told Link that "girls don't wanna date someone that used to be a female, that's perverted".And I agree. If Link wants to use STP packers and prosthetic cocks for sex, it's NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Girls are stupid and they think dating a trans man makes them a lesbian. So therefore I argue back IT IS MESSED UP AND LINK WILL DIE ALONE
EXOPrimal

Con

Or link could get tratment to make herself think she is a girl, and then live a happy productive life.

Anyways Con failed to defend his points, or refute my points, so they go conceded. There is not real subtance in his round 3 arguemnt as he copy pasted it into two debates. My points still stand, vote for CON.
Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Bitch_Goddess 2 months ago
Bitch_Goddess
alt310?
Weren't you just in a debate with me, arguing how "disgusting" transgenders are?
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
Ah, you see the APA classifies it as a mental illness, and they have more authority that the associations linked in the time magazine. I have never said being trans is a choice, nobody chooses to have a mental illness. If there is nothing deeper happening here, explain the suicide rate to me. The study that you link proves that trans people have a much higher rate of suicide, even when removing societal factors.

Also, I don't find what I said to be explicitly transphobic, i'm not sitting here acting like all trans people should be killed, I think they are stopped from being normal human beings by a terrible illness. I feel like the nurturing of that illness is leading to the ever increasing suicide rate. Even if I agreed with your false claim that trans people do not have a mental illness, I don't think that would be transphobic, as I am not promoting discrimination or harassment, if anything i'm discouraging it.

Ultimately I don't care what trans people want to do to their body, as long as they aren't hurting anyone that's not my problem. Your stance is that trans people should be able to change their body to fit what they think, my stance is the opposite. I feel like that trans people should change their minds to fit their bodies. This avoids hate from people, and the negative side effects of HTR an SRS. This is inherently different from homosexuality, as homosexuality has not proved to have any negative side affects.

I think a good way to stop bigotry is to make the classification of gender dysphoria more known, I would never be discriminatory a trans people. If we actually viewed these people as those who fight for their lives every day, who are combating a mental illness - that would reduce any discrimination. Instead people like you support that it is not a mental illness, giving people that leeway to be bullies. If anyone here is indirectly promoting discrimination, it is you.

I am completely willing to debate you on this topic
Posted by missmedic 2 months ago
missmedic
" I would like to point you towards one thing I have said that was explicitly transphobic."
Being transgender is not "okay", it is a mental illness. There is no reason that we should be accepting transgender people as what they think they are, you cannot let a transgendered person say that they are a different gender.............
First off it is not a mental illness................http://time.com...
Second being trans is not a choice......................http://www.ozy.com...
All And I will continue to protect my child from bigots and bullies. All people want, no matter their sexual orientation, is to be loved and accepted. What is wrong with you that you don't want that for them too?
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
I would like to point you towards one thing I have said that was explicitly transphobic.

"It is the bigots and bullies that drive the suicide rates not mental illness."

but did you not say: "the closer they were to having a body and outward identity that matched their internal gender identityR02;"R02;the less likely they were to attempt suicide."

You have outwardly said, yourself, that the greatest factor is the trangender mentality that "I am not in the right body". So, you have said, right here on this site, that being transgender leads to higher suicide rates. How can you claim that the mental illness is not the problem when you have literally just said this. I sense some faulty logic in the air.

I have never claimed that society does not play a part, but evidently there is more. In your own study, when discriminatory factors are removed, suicide rates are still much higher than normal. The ONLY comparable suicide rate is Jews during the holocaust in Germany. What you are implying is that society is as ban now over then. How can you justify this, the answer is, you cannot.

I ask you this, tell me why the suicide rate is still higher than normal when removing negative factors, then tell me that transgenderism is not the problem.
Posted by missmedic 2 months ago
missmedic
It is the bigots and bullies that drive the suicide rates not mental illness.
Posted by missmedic 2 months ago
missmedic
Bad choice of words, I should have said transphobia or phobia or just plain hate. One of the biggest studies on the experiences of transgender people was the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS). It found that in the U.S., 41 percent of transgender and gender non-conforming people had attempted suicide, compared to a national average of just 4.6 percent. When all of the data were analyzed, however, researchers found a number of factors that significantly influenced whether a person was more likely to attempt suicide: being a person of color, experiencing poverty, being unemployed, achieving less education, being out or more easily perceived as transgender, experiencing housing discrimination or especially homelessness, experiencing harassment or especially physical or sexual assault, being rejected by family, or facing discrimination in health care. In other words, the more forms of discrimination transgender people experienced, the more likely they were to attempt suicide.

A brand new study from Canada confirms this effect. There, the suicide attempt rate for transgender people was similar to what other studies have found: about 18 times higher than the general population. But the study found that some factors greatly reduced the attempt rate. For example, when transgender people had affirming parents, the rate dropped by 57 percent. Access to legal documentation consistent with their gender identity dropped rates by 44 percent. Trans people who experienced low levels of anti-trans hate were 66 percent less likely to attempt suicide. And perhaps most importantly, the further along individuals were in their transitionsR02;"R02;i.e. the closer they were to having a body and outward identity that matched their internal gender identityR02;"R02;the less likely they were to attempt suicide.
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
I still do not understand where homophobia plays into this debate. I am not homophobic, so in this conversation then you must be the homophobe.
The final authority on mental illnesses is the APA
Posted by missmedic 2 months ago
missmedic
The mental illness I was talking about is homophobia not homosexually. If you care to read.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
Posted by EXOPrimal 2 months ago
EXOPrimal
@missmedic
Transgenderism is not the same as homosexuality. Homosexuals do not have mental illnesses, trans people do. I leave you with this:

Red Herring Fallacy-
Red herring is a kind of fallacy that is an irrelevant topic introduced in an argument to divert the attention of listeners or readers from the original issue.
Posted by missmedic 2 months ago
missmedic
Lets talk about mental illnesses, here is one to check out;
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
https://www.scientificamerican.com...
http://www.nytimes.com...
It begs the question, why do you care so much about other people's sexuality?
Care to answer.......................................
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