The Instigator
roark555
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Lee001
Pro (for)
Winning
6 Points

Is Biblical creationism valid.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Lee001
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/21/2015 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 707 times Debate No: 70468
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

roark555

Con

Biblical Creationism:
Belief in the supernatural origin of the universe or of humans and other living things, especially as based on the literal interpretation of the account of the creation related in the Bible.
Valid: a :well-grounded or justifiable
Round one is for acceptance, round 2-4 is for arguments and rebuttals, and round 5 is for closing statements.
Lee001

Pro

I accept. Good luck!
Debate Round No. 1
roark555

Con

Thank you lee001 for accepting this debate challenge.
In order for something to be considered valid, it has to have a well grounded basis . By this I mean, it must be in accordance to observed facts in reality. It must not, in other words contradict the laws of nature. One plus one equals two, and it will always equal two. Now when a topic like this comes up that makes claims about reality, we use the scientific method to determine truth from non truth. I will give a brief rundown of what the scientific method is ( these are not my words, sources below):
-Observe some aspect of the universe.
-Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
-Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
-Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
-Repeat the preceding two steps until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

There is an immediate problem. Creationism is not based on observed facts about reality. It is based on things like faith, which creationists often freely admit. It's a tradition, or it makes them feel good to be part of "God's plan" or whatever the case may be. The start isn't an honest inquiry into observed phenomena, it's a dishonest non-inquiry into claims of the supernatural. It doesn't even qualify as a hypothesis, because a hypothesis has the basis of at least limited evidence. Creationism does, however, make claims about existence, claims which are testable and can be falsified. Here is a brief list:
-the universe was created by a supernatural being called Yahweh in six days, about 6000 years ago.
-It says that man was created by dirt, and then women by the rib of man.
- It says that a man named Noah brought two of each animal onto a large boat, because God flooded the entire world, killing everything else.
These are only a view examples, I just picked perhaps the most obvious ones. Lets look at the first one, the claim that God created everything approximately 6000 years ago. There is no dancing around it, this is simply not true. The earth is about 4.5 Billion years old, and the universe about 13.7 billion years give or take. There are several methods by which this is measured. To quote hubblesite.org, " Because all of the galaxies in the universe are generally moving apart, we infer that they must all have been much closer together sometime in the past. Knowing the current speeds and distances to galaxies, coupled with the rate at which the universe is accelerating, allows us to calculate how long it took for them to reach their current locations. The answer is about 14 billion years. " Another way is the length of time it takes the light from stars to reach us. The light from our sun takes about 8 minutes to reach us, but some stars take millions of years.
One of the main ways we know the earth is about 4.5 Billion years old is through various radiometric dating methods. Radiometric dating is essentially measuring the decay rate of certain isotopes. Different isotopes have different decay rates, for example the half life of carbon-14 is 5,730 years, while potassium 40 has a half life of around 1.3 billion years. Though these various methods, we can calculate that the age of the earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old.

The second claim is that God created all forms of life over the course of two days. This is also false. Life didn't just spontaneously appear in it's current form in one fell swoop, it evolved over the course of around 2 billion years. There is a mountain of evidence to support this claim, and I will only name a few and will hopefully expand on this later.
- The universal genetic code. All cells that we know of on earth are capable of reading any piece of DNA from any life form on Earth. This is very strong evidence for a common ancestor from which all life descended.
-Genetic similarities. We share more than 97% of our DNA with chimpanzees, 80% with cows, chickens about 68% etc. This suggests that that we shared a common ancestor in the past. And the amount of difference between our genomes corresponds to how long ago our genetic lines diverged.
-Bacterial resistance to antibiotics. Through random mutation, the bacteria the most resistant to a certain type of antibiotics will survive while the others die off. In the succeeding generations, most of the bacteria will be resistant to this particular type of antibiotics.
-Comparative Anatomy/vestigial structures/ homologous structures. On a surface level, animals that look very different from one another actually have a very similar physical structure. For example, underneath the fin of a whale, the skeletal "hand" is very similar to the hand of humans and chimps. Humans have tailbones .
Again, these are only a few examples, I will certainly expand upon this in the next couple of rounds.
Now finally, we have the issue of Noah and the flood. I will only point out a few obvious issues with this (more later, if you want).
- Gathering all the Animals. How could penguins, polar bears, moose, and plants have all gotten to the same place?
- The arks ability to support all the different species of animals. The ark was supposedly around 450 feet in length. They had to fit two of every type of animal on the planet, plus there's the issue of dinosaurs. How did they all fit?
-Maintaining animal life on the ark. Most elephants eat around 400 pounds of vegetation everyday, and drinks around 50 gallons of water and . How could they possibly fit all that food and fresh water into the ark for 40 days and 40 nights?

I think that is all I will state for now on the subject. I'm looking forward to your arguments lee001:) best of luck. This is an important conversation.
http://ideonexus.com...
http://hubblesite.org...
http://physics.ucr.edu...
http://www.talkorigins.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Lee001

Pro

There are many things in the bible that have been prophesied by Jesus, before any man has made their own claims.

Rebuttal #1
My opponent claims " There is an immediate problem. Creationism is not based on observed facts about reality. It is based on things like faith, which creationists often freely admit. It's a tradition, or it makes them feel good to be part of "God's plan" or whatever the case may be" this is false. People who chose to believe in god, just don't do it because they feel like it. They believe in god and know he is real through his prophecies that have been told in the bible. All of them are true, before man has even cam up with any idea's and then put the credit upon themselves.Here's are a few examples of his Prophecies: Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22) He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Jesus made the earth round. If you have read the bible you would know for a fact that it was Jesus who made the earth's shapes. This is not man made by a man saying that he made the earth round. As an example "When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round." So before man could even come up with idea on his own, it was already prophesied in the bible. That the earth was round and not flat. So there is 1 reason to believe why the earth is round, because Jesus said it would be.



Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
"I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore"


As of today, the stars are countless. We are told imagine all of the sand on all the beaches over the world, there are more stars in the sky than sand in the earth. Scientist today still do not know how many stars there are. But yet again it was prophesied in the bible, before man even came about that he, god would make so many stars.

Rebuttal #2
My opponent claims "The second claim is that God created all forms of life over the course of two days. This is also false. Life didn't just spontaneously appear in it's current form in one fell swoop, it evolved over the course of around 2 billion years"
Technically this is wrong, god made everything over the course of 7 days.
On the 1st day: 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:3-1:5)

On the 2nd day: 6 " And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Genesis
1:6-1:8)
On the 3rd day: 9 " And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.Genesis 1:9-1:13)


On the 4th day: 14 " And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
""(Genesis 1:14-1:19)


On the 5th day: 20 " And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
""(Genesis 1:20-1:23)


On the 6th day: 24 " And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.26 " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.29 " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
""(Genesis 1:24-31)


And on the 7th day: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made
""(Genesis 2:1-2:3)
As you can see all of the stuff he created was over 7 days not 2..


My opponent then goes on to talk about Noah's Ark saying. "- Gathering all the Animals. How could penguins, polar bears, moose, and plants have all gotten to the same place?
- The arks ability to support all the different species of animals. The ark was supposedly around 450 feet in length. They had to fit two of every type of animal on the planet, plus there's the issue of dinosaurs. How did they all fit?
-Maintaining animal life on the ark. Most elephants eat around 400 pounds of vegetation everyday, and drinks around 50 gallons of water and . How could they possibly fit all that food and fresh water into the ark for 40 days and 40 nights?"

"According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals (the maximum number of animals on the Ark, if the most liberal approach to counting animals is applied), assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) were small (the largest only a few hundred pounds of body weight). What's more, many could have been housed in groups, which would have further reduced the required space. Genesis 6:16 instructs that the Ark is to be made "with lower, second, and third decks" (NKJV). In this version of the Ark's interior, there are two levels that do not extend across the entire width of the ship. These half-floors are not separate levels."

*due to the fact that there is a limit on wording I can't post the rest of my argument. I will make it up in round 3.



Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://creation.com...

http://www.esa.int...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
roark555

Con

There are a plethora of issues here that need to be addressed. You claim essentially that the bible makes predictions that were not known at the time. You gave the examplOe of a verse saying that the earth is round, and it's true that it was not known scientifically at the time. Although even that isn't true, The Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras postulated the idea, as did Aristotle. But even if it was true that this was not thought of before the bible was written, it would still not prove that biblical creationism was valid. Just because one thing said in the bible happens to be true, does not mean that anything else is. The same thing goes for your examples of vast numbers of stars. This is evidence of nothing except of the fact that the bible says it. There are obviously a massive number of stars, a simple nighttime glance upwards would lead one to that conclusion. That really isn't impressive. And again, the fact that the bible was correct about some things doesn't mean that it was right about other things, as I will attempt to demonstrate with my refutation of your next points.

In your second rebuttal, you talk about how I was incorrect when I said that the bible says that God created life over the course of 2 days, you say it was seven. Now i'm no biblical scholar, but I'm pretty sure that he supposedly created sea life on one specific day, and land animals on another. But I don't really even know why i'm bothering to address this point because to be quite frank, it really doesn't matter. Two days, seven days, it makes no difference vs two Billion years. It's equally ridiculous. Also, you have not addressed the scientific arguments that I made in the second round pertaining to evolution, and the age of the earth and of the universe. You have simply quoted the bible and left it there. The using the bible to prove the biblical creation story is like using the lord of the rings series as evidence of the existence of orcs. Nobody would accept that. You would need more than the words of j.r.r Tolkien, you would need corroborating physical evidence. Perhaps we have orc footprints, or Orc DNA, or Orc bones or fossils. In other words, the words of a made up story is not evidence. Lord of the rings also talks about humans, and meadows, and mountains, all of which exist. But that doesn't mean that orcs do.
So just because the bible describes the origin of the earth and of man on a particular way, does not mean that it is true simply by virtue of it being in the bible. Again, you can examen claims made in the bible and compare them to the empirical evidence and see if it holds up, and in most cases it doesn't. The results from What we have observed using the scientific method Differ substantially from the claims made in the bible, for reasons which I have already delved into in the previous argument. Being that they were not scientifically Countered, I feel no need to expand upon them.

I need to organize my time better. I had more on Noah's ark, but I am about to move to an area without wifi for the next few hours. I am Truely sorry, and will gladly pick up the slack next round. Feel free to build up your arguments more.
Lee001

Pro


Rebuttal #1
My opponent states that : "There are a plethora of issues here that need to be addressed. You claim essentially that the bible makes predictions that were not known at the time" FALSE. First off, lets define Prediction:
n. noun
1. The act of predicting.
2. Something foretold or predicted; a prophecy.

Lets use Noah's Ark for example. Jesus told Noah that there would be a flood, when also scientifically proven there was a flood. Now this isn't a prediction. This is fact. Just look here: http://abcnews.go.com...
Rebuttal #2
My opponet then claims "You gave the examplOe of a verse saying that the earth is round, and it's true that it was not known scientifically at the time. Although even that isn't true, The Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras postulated the idea, as did Aristotle"
This is false. Phythagoras was born in 571 B.C and died at the age of 75, while Airistotale was born in 322 B.C. They were not the people do discover the roundness of the earth. The Book of Isaiah (Hebrew: ספר ישעיה‎, "Sefer Yeshayahu") is the first of the Latter Prophets in the Hebrew Bible and the first of the Major Prophets in English Bibles.[1] The oldest surviving manuscripts of Isaiah are two scrolls found among the Dead Sea Scrolls; dating from about 150 to 100 BCE, they are substantially identical with the Masoretic version which forms the basis of most modern English-language versions of the book
. As you can see the book of Isaiah was written before Pythagoras and Aristotale was born. Meaning the the bible was the 1st to tell us that the eart was round. (Isaiah 40:22).
More reasons as to why Creation beats Evolution:

1. Creation is made of particles, indiscernible to our eyes (Hebrews 11:3). Not until the 19th century was it discovered that all visible matter consists of invisible elements.
2. The Bible specifies the perfect dimensions for a stable water vessel (Genesis 6:15). Ship builders today are well aware that the ideal dimension for ship stability is a length six times that of the width. Keep in mind, God told Noah the ideal dimensions for the ark 4,500 years ago.
3. There are mountains on the bottom of the ocean floor (Jonah 2:5-6). Only in the last century have we discovered that there are towering mountains and deep trenches in the depths of the sea.
4. Scripture assumes a revolving (spherical) earth (Luke 17:34-36). Jesus said that at His return some would be asleep at night while others would be working at day time activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night occurring simultaneously.
How do you explain theese?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
Debate Round No. 3
roark555

Con

There isn't much to say. Frankly I'm disappointed. You haven't even addressed the scientific arguments I have put forth, or given some of your own. I had already stated that even if the Greek philosophers were not the first to come up with the idea that the earth was not flat but rather spherical, it would not justify other falsehoods in the bible. It's 100% meaningless to talk about the things that the bible happened to be correct about, and using that so say that therefore evolution is wrong. When you had the heading " more reasons why creation beats evolution" I was hoping for some, you know, reasons. Not bible verses. Something testible and measurable. If this is what one has to rely on in order to come to that position, then how anybody could adopt such a position is beyond me.
I don't really know what else I could say. There really isn't much.
Lee001

Pro

Well, Im sorry you feel that way. But I have rebutted your point in the rounds above.
You stated in the 3rd round about Pythagoras and Aristotle and I rebutted that very clearly.
I have rebutted your point many times.
I have pulled out scripture (prophecies to be exact) that are real today. Like I said, before a big majority of people lived on this earth, Jesus described the way the earth looks, and what was upon it. Today we can clearly read the book of Genesis and know that everything that has been written, is in fact real today because we can see it.
You say that just because it's in the bible doesn't make it true.
But yet everything and every scripture that I have argued is true. We have facts here on earth!
Debate Round No. 4
roark555

Con

roark555 forfeited this round.
Lee001

Pro

Vote Pro :)
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by triangle.128k 2 years ago
triangle.128k
The literal interpretation of biblical creation is mental cancer. I still don't see why people are opposing a proven fact.
Posted by footballchris561 2 years ago
footballchris561
The only way to win this debate as pro is to put the BOP on the instigator which has not been done. Definitively if this is not done the BOP shifts to pro as pro is making the assumptions and assumptions are not valid. This debate is basically already decided unless con starts cursing or something.
Posted by flewk 2 years ago
flewk
Facts and evidence regarding the validity of something that came from omnipotent being do not exist.

They need to broaden the discussion to Christianity in general which includes the omnipotence of its God, or the underlying assumption invalidates the debate.
Posted by Lee001 2 years ago
Lee001
No, you have to provide facts and evidence as well.
Posted by flewk 2 years ago
flewk
Since the Christian God is omnipotent, you could just claim omnipotence at everything and win the argument that way.

After all, contradictions are possible when you are omnipotent. Even causality is out of the window.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
roark555Lee001Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture. Even if your opponent "appears" to not be countering your evidence then you should continue on and just bring that up every round and that would increase your credibility. In no case whatsoever is a forfeiture because of this justified.