The Instigator
pheonixduprese
Pro (for)
Losing
20 Points
The Contender
Zetsubou
Con (against)
Winning
47 Points

Is Catholicism a big lie?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,744 times Debate No: 10578
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (12)

 

pheonixduprese

Pro

sorry, but i`m not going to re-write everything. Zetsubou, you know what the debate is about, i hope! refer to my other debate with the same name as this if you forgot [god forbid].
Zetsubou

Con

Thanks, welcome to Debate.org.

Pro's original argument:

"If any of you have ever read the Da Vinci code or Angels and Demons by Dan Brown, you'll know what this is about. I did some research after I read that most holidays and rights in the church were voted upon in a council by Constantine to accommodate the previous pagan religions. I therefore think that Catholicism is a lie, and that even though the rituals have been around for 1,500 years doesn't make them automatically right. The date of Christmas, for example, was changed to celebrate the Celtic holiday that celebrated the days getting longer. Jesus Christ was actually born late spring-early summer. Communion was taken from a holy right (rite?) done by the Greeks to initiate new High Priests. The Lord's Prayer was based on a song by Romans to celebrate the holiday of Castor and Pollux. Some protestant denominations have rejected things like this, except for Christmas, of course.

Sorry for my lack of sources, I have picked up these things from years of education."
_______________________________
>>Definitions<<

Catholicism – The faith, practice, or system of Catholic Christianity.

Yule – A pagan midwinter festival.

Communion – Christian sacrament in which consecrated bread and wine are consumed as memorials of Christ's death or as symbols for the realization of a spiritual union between Christ and communicant or as the body and blood of Christ.

Lie – An assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive.

>>Argument<<

I have divided your argument into three parts. All parts together accumulate to Rome accommodating to Pagan rites.

------->1. Christmas from Pagan Yule

Christians didn't steal Yule or "Ghule", is it impossible that Jesus was actuality born on the same day as Yule, December 25th?

------->2. Communion as Pagan Holy Rite

Pro has to burden to prove Early Catholics stole this.

Many religions have an age passing or religious conformation.

Catholics – Communion

Christian denominations – Eucharist

Wiccans-Pagans – Sacrament

Judaism – Brit Milah and Bar Mitzvah

Islam – Shahadah also teen Sawm

Hinduism – Upanayana and dvija

As you can see it's a near universal religious Tradition to have passing rites. With this if you look at the spacific Pagan Sacraments and Christian Communions, they have near nothing in common.

------->3. The Lord Prayer.

English [as in Matthew 6:9–13 (KJE)]

Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.*

Latin [as in Matthew 6:9–13 (1967 Vatican Archive, Classical Latin)]

Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. adveniat regnum tuum. fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.

/-/ Quia tuum est regnum, et potestas, et gloria, In saecula.*

Amen.

Roman rite to Castor

English
Dependable Castores!, Holy Messengers!, Rescuing Brethren!, Lords!, Sons of Jove!, Patrons of the Roman Knights! Be Ye present! Hail, O Castores! I pray and beseech Ye, that Ye mayest not fault the observance through my part... that my body, mind, and heart be imbued with holiness; here and now, everywhere and always: So mote it be! So may it be granted!

Latin

Deniterni castores, vnentii sacri, fratres soteres; domini, filii iovis, romani eqvitatvs patroni. adeste! salvete castores,vos ego precor vaesoqve, ne vitia mea moram afferent meae corporis mentis cordis sanctitati, hic et et semper: ita est! illicet.

I see a single light connection in both the English forms but not the latin, as spoken in that age:

Here and now, everywhere and always <--> and the power, and the glory, forever*

* Note: For Catholics this part is even optional or changed.

I hardly call this connection stealing; more like coincidence.

_________________
Definitions are form Merriam Webster's Dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com...

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 1
pheonixduprese

Pro

I applaud my apponent in his research.

1. It is impossible that Jesus was born on the 25 of December. He would have been born on the twenty-third of Tevet, year 3762 on the Hebrew Calandar. Jesus was born at the time of the Census, taken by Ceasar Agustus, also known Ceasar Octavian. During this time, the Romans were celebrating the solstice. Octavian would not have taken a census during festivals. It is much more likely that Jesus was born in April, a reletivly quiet festival month, therfore increasing the chance that he was NOT born on the 25 of December.

http://www.novaroma.org...
http://www.hebcal.com...

2. Other Christian denominations, such as the Protestant denominations, the Church of England, and Orthodox denominations, all gained the Eucharist from Catholicism's Communion. Orthodox churches, also know as Eastern Churches, were incorperated at the same time that Communion was accepted, at the Council of Nicaea.
Let it show that many decisions were made at the Council of Nicaea, including Jesus's birthdate.
Also, Protestant and Angelican Denominations come from Catholicism.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. You have me on this one.
Zetsubou

Con

Thank you, you too. ^^

>>>>Arguments<<<<

1. Fair say, I'll base my argument not on Birth being the 25th of December, but the anonymity of Christ's birthday and the reliability and citability of predicted dates.

I will start on the accounts of Jesus' birth. I will Reference two deuterocanonical texts: Codex apocryphal – Gospel of Infancy according to Thomas and the Protocannonical Gospel – Gospel according to James. The codices talk about the education of Christ, his friends and hobbies. The books where removed from cannon due to the humanisation of Christ in both codices. Of the accepted four gospels only two speak of the nativity, the gospel according to Luke and the gospel according to Mathew. With this affirmed we can conclude that the Bible cannon and psedo-deutro cannon have no date of birth of Christ.

Date to Onto Scholars prior to the 6th Century.

Yes, It's coming the "Council of Nicaea your primary source pheonixduprese.

In the Centuries after the birth of Christ various religious scholars attempted to "calculate" he birth of Christ. The Following are common suggested dates according to Clement of Alexandria:

The 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar]
The 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]
The 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21]
The 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15]
The 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].

As you can see none date to Winter and none date to December 25. These dates where all probably generated falsely.
Do to all the confusion the Roman ruler's religious Council, the Council of Nicea, where forced to make two dates.
Though they addoped it from a mid-fourth-century Roman almanac that lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs. The first date listed, December 25, is marked: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: "Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea." The dates became the 25th of December for Western Empire and 6th of January in the Eastern Empire, these dates we now hold as Christmas. The resolution says that the Catholic Roman Empire lied. As the Definition of Lie does not correlate to this [An assertion of something known or believed by the speaker to be untrue with intent to deceive.] It is not a lie; all they did was select the most probable Date. They had no reason to lie.

2. Sorry, I might have not been too clear. My Point was that almost all religions have a form of rituals confirming faith. See my List in Argument one. You have yet to prove that the Pagan, Sacrament has any connection to the Christian - Catholic, Eucharist - Communion. The addition of Christian denominations was due to the significant various held by them.

I add to my original point I will give the characteristics of Pagan Sacraments according to Wicca,

>>>>>Pagan Wiccan Rites [Citation: http://www.paganlibrary.com... http://www.wicca-info.com...]

Initiation-- It is designed to welcome a new member into a coven or into the craft by dedication of oneself to the Goddess.

Handfasting -- A Wiccan marriage ceremony in which the right wrists of the couple to be married are bound together. This is only symbolic of their union. Handfasting is becoming more and more common, and is used in many wedding ceremonies.

Wiccaning -- This is a ritual or ceremony to welcome a new baby into life. It is also to ensure that it will be protected by the Goddess. This ceremony in no way makes a baby a Wiccan, for Wicca is a path that is CHOSEN later by the individual!

The Great Rite -- Sacred sexuality, or the union of lance and grail. In Old Traditional Wicca, it is a ceremony which includes the fivefold kiss. The sex is only actual when done in privacy, and symbolic when performed in a coven. Sexual Magick is the most powerful kind and can be performed by people of all sexual orientations.

Croning -- A ceremony that marks a womans transition from mother to Crone (upon completion of Menopause). This is also her entry into the final stage of her life, or the beginning of the 3rd phase which is sometimes longer than the other phases. Only the Crone herself knows when the time is right . Each Crone enters this phase at her own special time.

Passing, or Death Rites -- A ceremony or ritual to celebrate a Witch or Wiccans life. In Wicca it is only believed to be a passing of spirit into another form. It can also be a solemn time as her/his spirit will be missed until we meet again.

>>>>>Catholic Eucharist [Citation: Me due to time]

Baptising: A child is washed in holy water, water blessed by a Priest. The water represents god's power.

Eucharist: The one receiving the Eucharist kneels toward a priest or another of religious value. The Priest offers

Funeral: You pray the departed's soul finds peace, you bury them.

Differences:
Christians and Catholics don't have Incitation, a great rite or Croning. Note: All these rites existed in Gaulic Paganism. It is clear Christianity didn't steal them or change them.

>>Sources<<
http://en.wikipedia.org... also see below
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://news.peacefmonline.com...
http://www.bib-arch.org...
http://www.paganlibrary.com...
http://www.wicca-info.com...
Debate Round No. 2
pheonixduprese

Pro

So I have a summing up to do for this whole argument.

I conclude that Catholicism might not have been born on lies, particularily, but when talking to my local bishop, I asked him if Catholicism was all original. He said that yes, it is an original idea. I then went to a father (priest) in my area, who is fresh out of the seminary, and I asked him the same question and he replied the same as the bishop. Therefore, I say that even though the principle of Catholicism may not be technically a lie, they are telling their followers that everything they teach is original, which IS a lie. I suppose that I do not have any specific arguments, except about the almanac that lists deaths of martyrs and bishops. It says that Christ was born on the twenty-fifth of December, but if it is from the fourth century, that is almost four hundred years after the fact.

2. I haven't done too much research for this part, so I must admit that you beat me here.
But Catholicism has, basically, stole most of their rites from other religion, including Communion, wether it be from Wicca, Greek or Roman Pagan, or tribal religions. I think I have proven my point, and you have sorta helped me :)

While this is only my first real debate on here, I think I did ok, right? I know I'm going to lose, but still.
Zetsubou

Con

Wish you'd tried more,

>>Analysis of Argument<<

Argument 3. Pro accepted this with no argument.
Argument 1. My first Argument was rebutted in round two. My second was accepted.
Argument 2. My opponent admits defeat but Attains an argument: Christianity stole these rituals. See "2." in arguments

>>Argument<<
1. Given
2. Christianity didn't steal anything of any religion other than it's parent, Judaism, Pro hasn't defended his claim - arguments extended.
3. Given

(2/3) - Vote Con

Thank you for the debate; hope you try more in future ones. ^^
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by RoyLatham 6 years ago
RoyLatham
Let's suppose that the date of Christ's birth as celebrated is wrong. Does that mean that "Catholicism is a big lie"? It seems to me like a rather unimportant detail. Con correctly pointed out the important difference between "lie" and "mistake," but more could be done with the meaning of "big lie." I think Pro would have been better off with a resolution like, "Significant Christian ideas where incorporated from pre-Christian religions." For example, the Garden of Eden story of creation pre-dated Christianity. There is evidence for the winter solstice being celebrated previously, and so forth.

Still, an interesting debate.
Posted by True2GaGa 6 years ago
True2GaGa
Wow. I could have answered this question a LOOOONG time ago.
Yes. Yes it is.
Posted by Chrysippus 6 years ago
Chrysippus
C: tied.

SP/G: tied. Pro's first round was shaky, but he did well in the rest of the debate.

A: Con. Although the digression on Wicca had only a tenuous logical connection to the debate, for the most part Con did well in negating the resolution. Pro also conceded two out of his three contentions, and provided no concrete support for the resolution.

S: Con. Pro depended mainly on his personal experience and opinion; subjective and non-verifiable support, not permitted in debate.
Posted by Chrysippus 6 years ago
Chrysippus
On the other hand, you had a good, if somewhat short, R2 argument for your first contention.

"1. It is impossible that Jesus was born on the 25 of December. He would have been born on the twenty-third of Tevet, year 3762 on the Hebrew Calandar. Jesus was born at the time of the Census, taken by Ceasar Agustus, also known Ceasar Octavian. During this time, the Romans were celebrating the solstice. Octavian would not have taken a census during festivals. It is much more likely that Jesus was born in April, a reletivly quiet festival month, therfore increasing the chance that he was NOT born on the 25 of December."

This is good. You convince us, and your opponent. He had to change his line of attack. :)
Posted by Chrysippus 6 years ago
Chrysippus
"While this is only my first real debate on here, I think I did ok, right?"

Well, not as bad as some first-time debaters. Seems you can spell when you put your mind to it, and you don't use walls of text.

This is good.

On the other hand, you still need to learn how to debate. There's good reasons why Zetsubou is winning the votes on this one.

Here's a few things you can work on, taken in order from your posts:

"refer to my other debate with the same name as this"
We can't. You didn't give us the link, and I didn't find it on your profile. As far as the debate's concerned, if you don't link it, it doesn't exist. Use sources so that your audience knows what you are talking about.

"If any of you have ever read the Da Vinci code..."
This whole paragraph is blatant assertion. You give us no reason to believe you. The idea of debate is to write convincing arguments, but this paragraph contains no arguments whatsoever; your opinion is not a valid argument.

"Sorry for my lack of sources, I have picked up these things from years of education."
And your education doesn't count as a source, unless you can demonstrate your expertise in a particular field.

"2. Other Christian denominations, such as the Protestant denominations..."
Nothing in this paragraph directly supports your assertion that Communion was a rite stolen from pagan rituals. If there is a connection, you need to spell it out for us.

"but when talking to my local bishop,"
Again, your word only. Don't cite personal experience, especially if you have nothing else to cite.

"Therefore, I say that even though the principle of Catholicism may not be technically a lie, they are telling their followers that everything they teach is original, which IS a lie."
Convince us of this, and you win. That's the point. You never proved that the rites of Catholicism are borrowed.

"I suppose that I do not have any specific arguments"
And that's why you lose this debate.
Posted by pheonixduprese 6 years ago
pheonixduprese
thanks so much for your feedback. I have gained much experience from this debate. Zetsoubu, if you would like to have another debate about religion, or anything for that matter, I promise to try harder as well as use more sources and have longer arguments. Please, if you have a good debate but nobody to accept, I'll be happy to.
Thanks,
Pheonix :) &#9834;
Posted by Lexicaholic 6 years ago
Lexicaholic
Before/After:Pro. See Mangani's comments below.
Conduct: Con. Pro had the duty of bringing the argument in the first round. All he had to do was copy and paste his original argument in the "other" debate. He did not do this, forcing Con to take that burden upon himself. So I would give this point to Con.
Spelling & Grammar: Tied. I base S&G on the number of spelling and grammatical errors relative to the text provided by the speaker. It's an imprecise method but as good as any I have seen applied. I think, in this particular debate, the relative number of errors on both sides amounts to a draw.
Convincing Arguments: Con, because he did research and was willing to find sources to contradict his opponent, while Pro, quite simply, did not. Heck, pro's final argument consisted of hearsay.
Reliable Sources: Con. Con had more and they were all directly relevant to his arguments (even if his arguments weren't always directly relevant to the resolution, such as the part where he went on about Wicca). Pro had fewer sources of questionable utility, and tried to cite a bishop he knew.
Posted by Mangani 6 years ago
Mangani
Before/After: Pro
Conduct: Tied
Spelling/Grammar: Con
Arguments: Con
Sources: Tied

Pro was faced with the fairly easy task of proving that Catholicism is a lie, or in other words, based on a series of lies. The simplicity of this concept was met with amateurish arguments which allowed Con to prove his arguments more dependable. I would like to challenge Con to a similar debate.
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Sorry, I am losing a debate where my opponant gave up 2/3 of his ideas
Posted by Zetsubou 6 years ago
Zetsubou
Ewww, Libary!

Anyway, Yeah your right. But they have different characteristics, I'm not a paganism exspert but, it won't suprise me if they had diffferent prayers.
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by True2GaGa 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by RoyLatham 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Chrysippus 6 years ago
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