The Instigator
Julian-Harker
Pro (for)
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The Contender
H501
Con (against)
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Is Feminism nowadays bad?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/12/2016 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 661 times Debate No: 92662
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
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Julian-Harker

Pro

First round is just an introduction to yourself.

My name is Julian Harker, a 16 year old student currently studying in the regions of sexism.

I am a debater for my school and the topic of feminism has appealed to me alot.

Best of luck to who accepts this debate.
H501

Con

Hello. I don't want to give out my real age (The one on my profile is a fake), but I'm a student in New York. Could you please define terms in the next round?
Debate Round No. 1
Julian-Harker

Pro

Great! A contestor. First of all before I start this debate, I'll define the terms we're going into in the topic of feminism.

We will be revolving around the fact that modern feminism is beginning to demand more than it used to, now men rights are being deducted and taken by feminists.

What I mean by 'demanding more' is that feminists are demanding for more rights than men and because of this they are gaining more attention than men throughout the media. We've already given them enough of a taste of gender equality and yet they ask for more.

Alright, now I'll begin my round:

Feminism isn't what it used to be. It started as one thing and has devolved into something distasteful and weird, like when you bake a crowd-pleasing casserole, put the leftovers in the back of the fridge and forget about it; two weeks later you discover you're some sort of scientist who's grown a cure to the disease which has yet to infect the masses. INGENUITY!

Modern third wave feminists pull out the bluish, fuzzy casserole, scoop the ooze and slather it on a dish. The dish is neither pink or blue because gender is a construct. The dish isn't white either, because 'white' is both racist and virginal. Rather, the dish is a cesspool of colors resembling the palette and texture of cat vomit.

Welcome to feminism, a once delightful dish served moldy. If you projectile vomit, you're probably a sexist.

When feminism began way back in the days of corsets, ankle-covering dresses, and men wearing tights, feminism had lofty and admirable goals: woman's equality. Back in those days, women were the 'lesser sex' and weren't allowed to participate in societal discussions that mattered. 'What do you want for dinner,' didn't count as mattering. Inheritances passed from father to son, not father to daughter (an example of real patriarchy.) Women were diplomatic negotiating tactics between countries, forging national alliances in a king's bed chambers - without the help of Fifty Shades of Grey. If you were biologically "she" (this was long before transgenderism was seen as "heroic"), you were a second class citizen who depended on a husband to survive. You also had to know how to cook, because Lean Cuisine and microwaves were a long way off.

You"d be hard-pressed to find a person, male or female (or male who thinks he"s female, or a female who thinks she"s male, or someone asexual, or Hillary Clinton) who disagrees with the aims of original feminism, or "protofeminism."
But where did it turn sour? Why is it that women today shy away from the term "feminist" like they shy away from cat-calls from strangers on the streets of New York?

In my opinion, the movement turned indistinct in the second wave of feminism, which took place between the 1960s and 1980s. Women enjoyed working and flexing their independent muscles and wanted to rise like the high tide in their respective fields like men. But then things got a bit erratic. The word "equality" was perverted into "sameness." Natural, biological differences were seen as "unequal." Namely, women get pregnant and men do not. A man, after impregnating a woman, could play his jerk card and disappear, shirking his responsibilities and leaving a woman high, dry, and knocked up. Classy move, sir. The proverbial playing field had to be leveled, and the best way to do that, according to the feminists, was to provide women "choice," to terminate a pregnancy"fancy medical talk for killing her baby.

That"s where feminism lost me. My idea of original protofeminism was more about women having equal opportunities in law and society, becoming whatever she wanted to be, a wife and mother, a doctor, lawyer, or soy-candlestick maker; not killing her unborn child for the sake of biological sameness because a douche she hooked up with skipped out on her, stealing her dignity.
H501

Con

OK, it's true that feminism is a little worse than it used to be. I've been called sexist for saying things like "Huckleberry Finn is a book directed at boys" (Seriously!) But that doesn't make it completely bad. Feminism is still an important issue, and while men shouldn't let themselves be pushed over, women shouldn't either.

However, I'm afraid that your arguments are a little confusing. You say that "sameness" shouldn't be used because it implies that women and men are biologically identical...right? Well, gender equality is (according to Google) "the state in which access to rights or opportunities is unaffected by gender." https://www.google.com.... Gender equality, the center concept feminism, doesn't say anything about biology. And what are you trying to say about abortion? Isn't the topic of this debate feminism? Please be more clear.

I like your analogy, though.
Debate Round No. 2
Julian-Harker

Pro

Apologies about the abortion part, I went a bit off track there.

I'll continue pushing on the pro side.

It's clearly irrelevant at this point in time. I mean what can't a woman do that a man can other than stand while pissing? Now turn that question backwards, What can't a man that a woman can?

Women get favor in everything, everytime I turn on the TV, something's being advertised for women.

How about the girls who take advantage of the no hitting rule? Who will always get in your face, and constantly be on you like you're the scum of the earth? What about the girls that fool you into getting them things, and then trick you later and leave?

You're upset about the negative image of women in the media? Girls that get raped? Or the way women get depicted?

NEWSFLASH, women who are strippers, choose to be that. Granted, it may be a last resort, but you know that something else happened that involved that, and it is not always a man's fault.
Women in media are PAID to do those things and act that way TV, they are actors. Those ladies, chose to be depicted that way since they are on there. If they really didn't want to be on TV that way, they wouldn't do it.
Rape, is something that no one can really ever stop. It's like trying to stop a 2 year old from crying. They are always going to do it, it's going to happen. What you could do is to stop yelling at all men.

I am a guy and I am ashamed feminism even needed to exist. Unfortunately it did and women in the western world have bettered from it and it has done some wonders.

Important issues, like wage gaps, voting and enlisting to fight for your country have been cleared up. Women now stand equal to men and in order to look back at the movement of feminism and be reminded and inspired of the brave women who stood out and changed this, it needs to tone down a lot now.

My ex girlfriend would tell me, why can a guy sleep with who he wants, be highly given, yet a girl gets condemned?
Well, why is it socially acceptable for a woman to hit a man and not reverse? Why are 99% work related deaths of men? Why is 83% of violent crimes have male victims?

Assured, these are all REAL problems, though that is as far as that stretches
.
Sexually, males and females will always be different. When I was at a party once, a girl walked past and casually slapped me in the genitals. Had I walked passed her and squeezed her breast, I'd have been attacked more likely. A girl slept with a guy, I knew them both and heard it both from them. Though when she regretted it, she told everyone she was drunk and didn't want it. Woman are viewed as so fragile and important, the guy was beaten into hospital for 'rape' even though a select few people knew this was not the case.

Cosmopolitan, one of the most popular female magazines. Including headlines like 'How to seduce a guy in ten minutes' 'How to bring males to orgasm without trying' - these are genuine headlines.
If I turned to a male friend and told him I could have any women I wanted in ten minutes, I'd be labelled a womaniser.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not complaining or point scoring about the inequalities with men sexually. I am just stating that both genders have their pros and cons in these aspects.

These are not, life changing and majorly important issues that feminism needs to fall down on like a ton of bricks. It's past equality now and bordering overpowering.

Politically, and socially and financially, women are treated as equals and focusing on small, unfounded issues is tarnishing what was once a vital movement. Together we can work and improve each other and become a more tolerant and peaceful race, one endless stream of angry woman obsessing over every small issue is doing the opposite.
I'll leave this with a comment from an active feminist who quotes; 'I am a feminist, because I am tired of making sure my phone is on standby when I am walking alone in the dark'
A pure example of feminism hi-jacking real life issues. Men are overwhelmingly more so, the victims of violent assaults.

Pretty well so far.
H501

Con

Ok, I think there's a misunderstanding here. You're going into great depths to explain how feminism these days is way overboard, and trying to convince me that that's the case. I acknowledge that this is true, but I say that it doesn't make all feminism bad. That's my argument, not "feminism is perfect in every way." I will try to rebut your arguments one by one.
A- "Women get favor in everything, everytime I turn on the TV, something's being advertised for women."
This isn't the case. If you watch sports, all the advertising is directed at men.
B-"How about the girls who take advantage of the no hitting rule? Who will always get in your face, and constantly be on you like you're the scum of the earth? What about the girls that fool you into getting them things, and then trick you later and leave?"
Yeah, gotta hate these types. And we should do something about it. But it doesn't make all feminism bad. (Please see my argument after my rebuttals)
C- "NEWSFLASH, women who are strippers, choose to be that. Granted, it may be a last resort, but you know that something else happened that involved that, and it is not always a man's fault.
Women in media are PAID to do those things and act that way TV, they are actors. Those ladies, chose to be depicted that way since they are on there. If they really didn't want to be on TV that way, they wouldn't do it."
Sure, strippers and some actresses (not all) choose this. But other women are objectified, and used as sex objects. This might be much less common now, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. https://www.apa.org...
D- "Important issues, like wage gaps, voting and enlisting to fight for your country have been cleared up. Women now stand equal to men and in order to look back at the movement of feminism and be reminded and inspired of the brave women who stood out and changed this, it needs to tone down a lot now."
-This isn't true. http://money.cnn.com...

You also elaborate on your "B" argument more, but I think my argument still stands. This has to stop, but it doesn't make feminism a bad thing.

My argument: "Over-feminism" is an issue, and that can't be denied. However, saying that all feminism is bad is going too far. There are still issues like the wage gap, rape (Which is not a natural male response to an attractive woman), and objectification of women that plague us today. Giving women the right to vote and some other trivial liberties isn't enough. Some things need to change- for both men and women.
Debate Round No. 3
Julian-Harker

Pro

I have nothing to rebut against your round 3 argument, so I'll just make satirical rebuttal out of the feminist propagandas instead.

The feminism movement is not needed anymore. A group of over-privileged first world country women trying to tell the rest of the population how hard their lives are. Cowering on social media and trying to talk about how the world treats them.

We all have struggles to deal with.

'But men make more than women!'

Sorry, but your stats mean nothing too because they're cherry-picked to all hell, consider that men don't leave maternity and women take vacations/sick days more than men. Also have you ever realized they take the average of all men and women across the country, different locations pay different amounts. Sure, some places pay one gender more than the other, but it goes both ways.

"Oh but women are sexually assaulted more than men."

Alright, sure I'll bite, that's true. But, why should we only focus on women? What makes this a movement of equality? Literally all that says is, We want to be equal, by having our problems solved only/first. Men get sexuality assaulted less than women but we, as a country, should focus on lowering sexual assault across the board, not just with women. Also I'm sorry but these stats in my opinion are a bit caked considering consent lines being blurry.

"The media depicts women as sex objects!"

Have you ever watched TV? Sorry but men get just as sexualized as women. Your tunnel vision convinces me of nothing. Also if women choose to be a model or "sexy," doesn't it go against your message of "empowerment" to tell them they are an object and to demoralize them? Does it not phase you that while you cry about the unfair standards set on women, the same is for men. Women, you have to look perfect (according to you), well for men, we have to be in shape, 6-pack abs and strong. So please let's not ignore one standard and cry about the other.

"Domestic abuse happens to women more than men"

Alright, yes again, but looking the most commonly sited domestic violence stats we see that 40% of domestic violence is against men. So sure it happens more but again, why should we only focus on women? These are pretty close percentages, why focus on one or another?

I am so sick of these stupid people going around talking about how awful men are and complaining when guys try to defend themselves. Your movement against double standards have double standards. Sorry but if you want to use buzz words like misogynist or patriarch, I suggest you go to a third world country and see some real misogyny. Stop bitching about movies and video games. You just look for things in any medium that promote your narrative, you literally cherry-pick everything, Just look at Anita Sarkeesian. Literally someone, not even remotely educated in the subject trying to tell others how to interpret it while censoring anyone who disagrees.

I'm sorry but until you clean up your goddamn act (don't worry you're doing great for your debate, I'm saying this to tease you) I consider modern feminism to be the biggest load of crap.
H501

Con

See, you're doing it again. I totally agree that feminism has serious problems. Totally. But that does not make all feminism bad. When you argue here, I see you're still trying to convince me of something that I have already excepted. What you should be doing is explaining how "over-feminism" is worse than actual feminism is good.

As for my rebuttals- Except for your argument on the inaccuracy of the wage gap, what you seem to be doing is confirming my points with your statistics, ie more women get raped than men, women are the victim of domestic violence 20% more than men..etc.... So I don't know how to rebut that. But your argument about the accuracy of the wage gap is valid. Those statistics are probably filled with holes, and the actual wage gap is probably much smaller (If you asked me, women could make anywhere from 70 cents to 90 cents to a buck a man makes.) But what the articles does prove is that the wage gap exists. And any wage gap, even if it's only five cents, piles up. And even if it didn't, it's still not fair.

Also, on TV and on the Internet, women are exposed and used as objects way more than men. WAY more. And while most of them choose it, people look at these women and classify all women like that. And that's not fair.
Debate Round No. 4
Julian-Harker

Pro

Julian-Harker forfeited this round.
H501

Con

Well, normally I get really mad when people forfeit, but Julian-Harker has debated pretty well so far, and honestly, there's not much left to say, so I'll "let that slide". I would also like to point out to voters that Julian is arguing an unpopular topic, so please vote based on our arguments, not personal opinion.

Thanks for debating me.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Julian-Harker 1 year ago
Julian-Harker
Oh dear I forgot the last paragraph in your part in round 3.
Posted by CatherineMorland 1 year ago
CatherineMorland
Feminism is overrated. How on earth is not shaving ur armpits a form of feminism?
Posted by KRTxBallistic 1 year ago
KRTxBallistic
Wow...
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