The Instigator
Lordknukle
Pro (for)
Winning
7 Points
The Contender
LadyHistory
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is Greed Good?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Lordknukle
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/23/2011 Category: Economics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 6,174 times Debate No: 17957
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (17)
Votes (1)

 

Lordknukle

Pro

This is one of my first debates that I have ever started online. I will try to do my best with these types of arguments but please bear in mind that I have barely done this before.

Round 1: Intro
Round 2: Body
Round 3: Clash
Round 4: Clash/ Conclusion

Pro argues why greed is good for society
Con argues why greed is not good for society

Note: When I say greed, I mean solely in the finance meaning (money).

Greed: Noun: Intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food.(1)

In this case we are arguing about wealth.


No Trolls or Experienced Debaters Please

(1)http://www.google.ca...;
LadyHistory

Con

Greed for money isn't doing any good for society,actually it's just making discord and hate between people. When you feel greed for money,you will do anything to get it,and that ,,anything' can actually be something dangerous for other people and you. You might kill people for money,or even start selling drugs and ruin somebody's life. For what? For some piece of paper. But not just for that,it's more for your social status. Greed for money made big changes in our everyday life. Many people don't want to be friends or be in relationship with people that don't have much money and wealth. And automatically bunch of good people stay alone because of that. However,that's not the only problem made by greed for money. When you feeling greed fr it,you are missing the good things in life,like laughing with friends and family,or anything that makes you relaxed.You can't be relaxed when you are feeling greed for anything,but most for money. You become obsessed about it,and you then become obsessed about your social status too,so you can start to feel depressed if you constantly think about money,and that can ruin your health. If your health is ruined than you are ruined and you will die younger. And greed for money can make you jeaulous of people that have amount of money you want,so you can become asocial and unpleasant for people in your environment which can make you problems in neighbourhood,job,family,friendships etc.
Debate Round No. 1
Lordknukle

Pro

Thank you for your reply.
I would like to point out that Round 1 was for accepting the debate. I see that my opponent decided to put what is supposed to be his main case.
In this round, I will present my main case.

I would first like to point out how important money is for our world. Our entire economy, society, and world revolves around the concept of money. Not only is it important, but it "makes the whole world keep turning". Without money, we would descend into anarchy. However, I am wondering off-topic so I will continue on with the main focus of this debate.

P1: Capitalism and Communism

Money is by far one of the biggest motivators in the world.

According to James Houran, President of 20 20 Skills Employee Assessment, "monetary incentives improved task performance by 23%, social recognition improved task performance by 17% and feedback elicited a 10% improvement. Simultaneously combining all three types of reinforcements improved performance by 45%."(1)

Money motivation is what makes Capitalism the most successful economic system in the history of the world.It gives people an incentive to try harder because of their greed. As a result of this greed, performance is increased by a whopping 45%. Quoting a famous character who is a personal favorite of mine:
"Greed is right. Greed works."
-Gordon Gekko (1987)

Now lets look at this opposite end of spectrum. Motivation is the problem with communism. Everybody has and will have the same amount of money. I can not gather any concrete evidence on work performance in a communistic society. Although there is lack of physical evidence, behavior patterns would conclude that since there is no motivation, there is no incentive for the person to work. Therefore, a communist worker can produce 2 toys and have the same pay as the capitalist worker who produced 20 toys. Since there is no greed in a communist society, it fails. While the greedy society keeps on producing and gaining.

P2: Technological advances because of greed


Greed motivates people to produce unique things because they have a potential to earn more money because of them. Nearly all technological advances were caused because people wanted money. What's the point of creating the light bulb, if you aren't going to make any money of it? As with productivity, money motivates people to produce new and innovative goods.

If money was not a motivation factor, many great inventions may have perhaps never have happened. Perhaps we would still get around using horses and carriages. There would be no reason for Henry Ford to invent the Model T if he wouldn't have made any money. Greed caused him to become one of the richest industrialists of all time.

Conclusion:

In conclusion, greed is the greatest motivating factor in the world. It creates new technologies, increases productivity, and creates better societies. A perfect society with no greed would never exist because man is not perfect. Unlike common conception, greed is not a "force of the devil" or an evil force. It enlightens and empowers us to greater achievements.







(1)http://www.2020skills.com...



LadyHistory

Con

Thank you for your reply. So lets start>

Money is by far one of the biggest motivators in the world.

Sure it's a big motivator,but not the biggest. It's because every man has he's own understanding of motivation. Someone finds motivation in a challenge to be the best and work the best,on the other hand other man is motivated by popularity etc. It's a subject thing hat cannot be discussed in a debate,a psihological thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Money motivation is what makes Capitalism the most successful economic system in the history of the world.It gives people an incentive to try harder because of their greed. As a result of this greed, performance is increased by a whopping 45%. Quoting a famous character who is a personal favorite of mine:
"Greed is right. Greed works."
-Gordon Gekko (1987)

You are looking to the bright side of capitalism only. The darker side exists too,as always. How many companies bankroted becuse of the great capitalism. Of course it's the easy way to change goods and pay them with your earned money,but it's a two side sword. How many people are starving because capitalism and the market where dollar just gets higher and higher,making life as hard as it could be. Food is expensive,stuff for school is expensive,clothes is even me expensive. And there comes the greed again. As every man you need to prove yourself that you are better than other people. Money it's maybe the easiest way to prove it. You buy the most expensive car,buy your kid expensive clothes and toys and your woman has that great gold necklace. You pay for all of that just to be better than your neighbour,your brother,sister etc. That makes you asocial and unfriendly. You become your greed. Selfsh,impatient,those are the words that can describe you then. And you forgot the fact that money isn't everything. There are those necessary things that money can buy. You can buy a big modern house,but you can't buy a home. You can buy a drug,but you cannot buy health. I have another theory of people's motivation. As wise Dale Carnegie said in his book ,,How to win friends and influence people"(shorter version): You can't increase performance of your co-workers? Just give them challenge. They will do their best to be the best. It's their nature,they strive to be the best and to prove that to people around them. It's like with bunch of wolves. They have when leader,the strongest and the smartest. All wolves wants to be him. So there are other ways to motivate people besides the money. Greed works,but in moderate amounts,several times,not to become man made from greed. I already told it makes you unhealthy and unhappy.


http://en.wikipedia.org...



Now lets look at this opposite end of spectrum. Motivation is the problem with communism. Everybody has and will have the same amount of money. I can not gather any concrete evidence on work performance in a communistic society. Although there is lack of physical evidence, behavior patterns would conclude that since there is no motivation, there is no incentive for the person to work. Therefore, a communist worker can produce 2 toys and have the same pay as the capitalist worker who produced 20 toys. Since there is no greed in a communist society, it fails. While the greedy society keeps on producing and gaining.

Communism it's a totally different story from my view. If everybody the same pay,why would worker make 4 toys when the ones who made 2 get same pay as he. I agree with you in that. But there is a way in communism too. That worker can make his own toy-shop,and be motivated with the challenge in it. Basically,who wants to be the best in something,he will be the best no matter what is going on in worlds economy. If somebody loves to make toys he will make 30 toys in communism no matter how much is he payed for that,but if somebody doesn't like to work he would'nt make 3 toys in capitalism. But greed exists in both actually. Because money isn't the only motivator,worker in communism will make 40 toys just to be better than his co-workers. As I said,the challenge is in our nature,and we love to be the centre of attention because of good things. We love to be loved by others,we love to make other people elfish about our achievements,no matter the sallary. Sure,nobody wouldn't mind for some money bonus,but it's not the primary thing in human nature. PEOPLE MADE MONEY,MONEY DIDN'T MADE PEOPLE AND PEOPLE SHOULD CONTROL THE MONEY,MONEY SHOULDN'T CONTROL PEOPLE. Remember when we were little.We played cards for example. We wanted to win,to be the best and win attention and aplausse of our friends,we didnt even know for money.


Greed motivates people to produce unique things because they have a potential to earn more money because of them. Nearly all technological advances were caused because people wanted money. What's the point of creating the light bulb, if you aren't going to make any money of it? As with productivity, money motivates people to produce new and innovative goods.

If money was not a motivation factor, many great inventions may have perhaps never have happened. Perhaps we would still get around using horses and carriages. There would be no reason for Henry Ford to invent the Model T if he wouldn't have made any money. Greed caused him to become one of the richest industrialists of all time.

Look at that like this:People in Prehistory didn't know for money. They made letters to be the first to do it,not for money. And to make life easier also. They wanted attention,it was some kind of challenge for them. And letter is still one of greatest inventions of all time,I would dare to say the greatest even. We couldn't make this debate without it. People also found fire from pure curiosity and desire to make world a better place to live,not the money. Maybe light bulb was created because it's inventor wanted the abillity to read in night,when work is over and everybody is quiet,you never know. All those invetions made our life more easier than we can ever imagine.
And what if Henry Ford wanted to get quicker and safer to his friends,so he just found the way? Sure they got money for both inventions,but they couldn't invent it just for it. They needed passion for science and electronics,mechanics etc. to learn how to make their idea come alive,and the needed desire to keep trying when invention didn't work from first time. And money that came afterwards is just a great prize for what they came true to come out with those brilliant inventions. You must pay for abillity to turn on lights and go to bathroom at night,you can't get it free. And inventor needs money to buy things for his experiments. It's how it goes.

Conclusion

Greed is just one of ways for motivating people,perhaps it's the most knowable one. But it's one of worse methods. There many other ways to keep you motivated,and that have less ,,side effects" than greed. It's a emotion,and we all felt it at least once,but it's not what keeps us motivated for long time,it makes us angry,insecure,selfish,jeaulos and much more things we would never like to hear behind our back. So we need to stick to real motivators like challenge,family,desire to make world even better place to live. Greed is just bad emotions we should try to keep away from ourselves,to beat it,because it can leave us alone with our money. We are actually more happy and more proud of ourselves when we help other people who don'thave as much as we do. GRASS IS ALWAYS MORE GREEN IN NEIGHBOURS GARDEN. We should know it,and see how much we have. And we should really stop looking at how many people around us have.


Debate Round No. 2
Lordknukle

Pro

I thank my opponent for his rebuttal.

On a side note, please use paragraphs and more headings next time. It gave me a headache just trying to read the wall of text.

First, I would like to point out that my opponent did not follow the rules of conduct. R2 was for main case. R3 was for criticizing (clash).

Anyways, onto my clash.

"Someone finds motivation in a challenge to be the best and work the best,on the other hand other man is motivated by popularity etc. It's a subject thing hat cannot be discussed in a debate,a psihological thing."

First, I will assume that by "psihological" you meant psychological. In fact, psychological items can be debated. You know how I know? We are doing it right now. Greed is an emotion, it is rooted in the brain. It is a psychological effect.

Also, notice how I didn't say "the biggest motivator in the world", I said "one of the biggest motivators in the world." Although, I have some facts to prove that it is the biggest motivator in the world.

According to Mae Lon Ding, President of Personnel Systems Associates, money does in fact motivate people:

"In a survey of over 1500 compensation and productivity professionals by the American Compensation Association and the American Productivity Center various types of compensation or rewards systems that they utilized were rated as having a "Positive" or "Very Positive" impact on performance in 66% to 89% of the companies where the companies used specific techniques such as gain sharing, small group incentives, profit sharing, individual incentives, and lump sum bonuses (source: "People, Performance, and Pay")."(1)

"In a national survey of 1200 randomly selected U.S. employees across many different types and sizes of companies 54% of employees rated direct financial compensation as "very important" or "extremely important" to motivation. When stratified by age group there was statistically insignificant difference by age group. Gen X and Gen Y were no different than Baby Boomers in this respect (source: "The Rewards of Work - What Employees Value")"(1)

"In a national survey of 2500 employees, 84% of those who understood their organization's reward/performance link believe they can help make a difference. If they also believe that the company will share its success when the strategy is achieved, 91% say they are motivated to help the company succeed (source: Workplace Index)"(1)

"In a study of 663 companies with performance reward compensation plans covering 1.3 million employees and a broad section of the workforce of each company (not just managers and salespeople) by the American Compensation Association, they found that at the median, organizations earned $2.34 for every dollar they spent on payouts; thus a close approximation of the net return on plan investment is 134% (source: "Organizational Performance and Rewards")." (1)

http://www.personnelsystems.com...


"How many people are starving because capitalism and the market where dollar just gets higher and higher,making life as hard as it could be."

Yes, it is true that capitalism can cause some people to become homeless. But it is by far not one of the most contributing factors to homelessness in the US. For most homeless, being homeless was not so much a sudden bang as a slow build up. Drug addictions, alcohol addictions, and poor families.

"The 2006 United States Conference of Mayors "Hunger and Homelessness Survey" reports that approximately 26% of the homeless population is dealing with issues of substance abuse."(2)

http://www.nationalhomeless.org...

A lot of the other homeless people are homeless due to being born into a poor family. Does any of this have to do this capitalism? No. People with substance abuse would be shamed and mistreated in any economic culture.

"You pay for all of that just to be better than your neighbour,your brother,sister etc. That makes you asocial and unfriendly. You become your greed. "

I am tempted to say that you made this up, and I'm pretty sure you did. How does become greedy make you asocial and unfriendly? In fact, some of the most greediest and richest capitalists are also the most philanthropic. Warren Buffet is arguably one of the biggest philanthropists around.

"In June 2006, he announced a plan to give away his fortune to charity, with 83% of it going to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation He pledged about the equivalent of 10 million Berkshire Hathaway Class B shares to the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (worth approximately US$30.7 billion as of June 23, 2006""(3)

http://en.wikipedia.org...

As of 2007, Bill Gates has given $26 Billion to charity. (4) These people are by no means unfriendly or asocial.

"You can buy a big modern house,but you can't buy a home. You can buy a drug,but you cannot buy health.

Good job copying this website:
http://www.nomad4ever.com...

"As wise Dale Carnegie said in his book ,,How to win friends and influence people"(shorter version): You can't increase performance of your co-workers? Just give them challenge. They will do their best to be the best. It's their nature,they strive to be the best and to prove that to people around them. It's like with bunch of wolves. They have when leader,the strongest and the smartest. All wolves wants to be him."

I understand that Dale Carnegie is an accomplished writer but he doesn't exactly have any credentials to go along with his work. Just because he sold books, doesn't make them correct.
Also, I think you are straying away from the subject. Leadership and following the wolf doesn't exactly have anything to do with greed.

"But there is a way in communism too. That worker can make his own toy-shop,and be motivated with the challenge in it. "

No he can't. In a communist society, every thing is government controlled. The shops, stores, everything. To open a toy store you would have to get permission. And I think that Stalin would rather send you to a concentration camp than give you permission to open a toy store.

"If somebody loves to make toys he will make 30 toys in communism no matter how much is he payed for that,but if somebody doesn't like to work he would'nt make 3 toys in capitalism"

Ah, but you see, according to Mao Lon Ding, over half of the workers are motivated by money. So that person in the capitalist society would most likely make more toys than the one of the communist. If a person were given a choice, do what they love for bad pay or do what they don't like (not necessarily hate) for a lot of money, the majority would chose the money.


"Look at that like this:People in Prehistory didn't know for money. They made letters to be the first to do it,not for money."

"And letter is still one of greatest inventions of all time,I would dare to say the greatest even"

I'm not even going to comment on the grammar because that is a waste of time. However, people back in "Prehistory"(?) didn't have money. They had a system of barter. Goods for goods. So that statement is not factually proven.


Conclusion

My opponent has not provided any significant argument to counteract my main case. Even though he probably has some good points, they are almost impossible to sort out in the grammatically incorrect wall of texts. I urge you to vote Pro.



Sources:

(1)http://www.personnelsystems.com...

(2)http://www.nationalhomeless.org...

(3)http://en.wikipedia.org...

(4)http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://www.nomad4ever.com...

Website he copied from ^^^.





LadyHistory

Con

LadyHistory forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Lordknukle

Pro

Argument extended.
Opponent forfeited round.

Conclusion
Greed is a good emotion. It promotes productivity,motivates people, and causes new and modern technological advances. In fact, it motivates over half of the workforce(*1). There is a reason why the greedy society (capitalism) succeeds and keeps on succeeding while the non-greedy society (communism) has crashed and burned a long time ago. My fellow debater did not provide any significant or conclusive evidence as to why greed is bad.

I urge you to Vote Pro


*1- For reference and sources please visit Round 3.
LadyHistory

Con

LadyHistory forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
Why did you forfeit the round?
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
Women always want more money, men alway want more sex, churches always want mroe members, God always want more souls, I'm a Christian, but I'm also a realist. I mean, like, come on guys; if I offered you a million dollars how many of you would say, "it's ok, i have enough, give it to someone else that really needs it"?
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
I agree with you Daley. Greed is part of human nature. It will never go away.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
Unless someone can give me a "negative" definition of greed, then I'd have to say that everyone is greedy. Everybody. We all always want more, even those of us who don't condier ourselves to be greedy. Too bad the debate was limited to money, cause it would have been more interesting.
Posted by daley 5 years ago
daley
Unless someone can give me a "negative" definition of greed, then I'd have to say that everyone is greedy. Everybody. We all always want more, even those of us who don't condier ourselves to be greedy. Too bad the debate was limited to money, cause it would have been more interesting.
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
You have a 32% win ratio. I would have gladly went up against you.
You are not an experienced debater.
Posted by joshuaXlawyer 5 years ago
joshuaXlawyer
i was going to do this but you said no experienced debaters
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
Oops double post
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
Yes, prehistory is a word. But the context that you used it in was wrong.

Anyways, knowing English has nothing to do with using paragraphs. Those are universal.
Posted by Lordknukle 5 years ago
Lordknukle
Yes, Prehistory is a word but you were using it in the wrong context. When the alphabet and letters were invented, history was still being recorded.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 5 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
LordknukleLadyHistoryTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro reads my mind when he says "On a side note, please use paragraphs and more headings next time. It gave me a headache just trying to read the wall of text." I could barely read Con's case so SG to pro. Conduct to Pro due to Con ignoring the guidelines that Pro set regarding the rounds. Arguments to Pro due to forfeit. Sources to Pro just for the heck of it.