The Instigator
Debatwinnerpro
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
hmikeshin
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is Hell Forever? (In Christianity)

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/15/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 561 times Debate No: 105881
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (29)
Votes (0)

 

Debatwinnerpro

Con

First round acceptance...

Please don't forfeit...
hmikeshin

Pro

I'm really sorry, but first round can't be just acceptance. I do accept this challenge, but I'm going to start right away. Hope you don't mind!

Okay.

Let's us both agree that God is real and that there is a heaven or hell for this debate. If you don't agree on this, then I'm forfeiting. This is because, instead of debating if hell is eternal, we are debating if God is real or not. So, like I said, let's just both agree that God is real.

Now I must tell you, the real main purpose of the Bible is to tell us that we are all going to die because we are sinners and that the only way to have eternal life with God is by trusting that Jesus died for everybody, even for you.
- According to John 3: 16, it says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life"
- Romans 6: 23 says "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"

So now, here's the juicy part of it:

Matthew 25: 46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." From this citation, we could see that people who believe in Jesus and in God would go to heaven, while the people who don't suffer in hell, eternally. But not only that, this verse is told by Jesus, Himself. He really does a good job explaining how punishment and suffering in hell is everlasting as being eternal with God.

(For more information, this also why 1 Corinthians 1-4 is also important in the Christain society. It explains we, as people. could be saved from eternal damnation.
- "Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,")

These are some other verses that describe the eternalness in hell, too. (For more information, the word "these" could be referred to people who don't believe in God.)
- "And these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thessalonian 1:9)."
- "These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved FOREVER," (Jude 12 - 13)

But not only that Jesus says, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the ETERNAL FIRE," (Matthew 18:8)

Also from the website of https://www.gotquestions.org..., it says, "Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5)." And this is exactly true. Deuteronomy 32:3-5 says "I will proclaim the name of the Lord. Oh, praise the greatness of our God! He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he. They are corrupt and not his children; to their shame they are a warped and crooked generation."

Now that all from me currently. I've got more coming and can't wait to hear you soon!

Best wishes,
Jason

https://carm.org...
https://www.gotquestions.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Debatwinnerpro

Con

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

It says their souls and bodies are DESTROYED in hell.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23
DEATH not eternal torment

psalm 37:10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found.

will be NO MORE...

But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20.

shall VANISH AWAY... they will vanish away not suffer forever

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38.

DESTROYED TOGETHER, and the future of the wicked shall BE CUT OFF

As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2.

LET THE WICKED PERISH.... still ...perish, not eternally suffer.

May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.

BE NO MORE

Malachi 4:1 "Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them.

BE STUBBLE, NOT A ROOT NOR BRANCH WILL BE LEFT TO THEM.... suggests destruction...

You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:1-3.

it says they shall be ashes... as in nothing left of them..

Behold, they shall be as stubble, The fire shall burn them; They shall not deliver themselves From the power of the flame; It shall not be a coal to be warmed by, Nor a fire to sit before! Isaiah 47:14.

It says they shall be stubble... like nothing...

The LORD preserves all who love Hims, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20.

it says he will DESTROY them... not make them suffer forever

For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16.

it says it will be like they never existed... so they are destroyed

you said:
"Matthew 25: 46 says "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." From this citation, we could see that people who believe in Jesus and in God would go to heaven, while the people who don't suffer in hell, eternally. But not only that, this verse is told by Jesus, Himself. He really does a good job explaining how punishment and
suffering in hell is everlasting as being eternal with God."

well. The punishment of the wicked is eternal. God will destroy them, they wont suffer forever! they will cease to exist FOREVER, that is a punishment... not existing is punishment... they wont suffer forever.

The same book of Matthew said
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

it says he will DESTROY both the body AND soul in hell. DESTROY..

- "And these will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thessalonian 1:9)."

you brought that up... it says eternal DESTRUCTION as in the will be destroyed and cease to exist, as in the will eternally not exist.
i await your argument :D
hmikeshin

Pro

First thing is, I don't think you understand the text in the bible clearly.

You said, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28"
The word "destroy" in this context doesn't mean to literally DESTROY somebody. It just means that He is able to make people who don't believe in him feel SUFFERING and PAIN. And destruction also doesn't literally mean destruction and breaking apart somebody. As the word "destroy", the word "destruction" means to make someone feel pain and sorrow, too. Please think deeply, and stop rushing. You are misunderstanding words. Please stop it.

Also, you said "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23" This verse only talks about how every person would die, and that if you accept the gift of God, then you would spend eternity with God. This verse has nothing to do with hell and its eternity

You also said "Psalm 37:10 A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found." You misunderstood another verse again. The verse it talking about how later in the future, sin (the wicked) would be washed from this Earth and never be found again. ( The CEV version of this verse is "Sinners will soon disappear, never to be found,")

Also, you said "But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20." Do you know what Psalm 37 is even about? I don't really think so. In this chapter, David talks about in the present day, about how the evil are prospering, while the goods were suffering. That bible verse you quote was just talking about how in the future, evil should be gone, be banished, from the Earth. But not only that, it talks about how the good would prosper and the evil would soon suffer oin the future Earth. So please think.

You also said "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; The future of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 37: 9-11, 20, 38." Again, this bible verse is trying to say how the evil would be gone from the Earth in the future.

(And don't get me wrong, I understand from the Bible that the future would be clean from evil. However, I do know from the Bible that people who are still in hell, would continue to be in hell.)

Also, you said "As smoke is driven away, So drive them away; As wax melts before the fire, So let the wicked perish at the presence of God. Psalm 68:2." This verse basically means God would kill these people who don't believe in him and put them in hell for eternity.

You also said "May sinners be consumed from the earth, And the wicked be no more. Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD! Psalm 104:35.", it's like the scenario earlier. According to the Bible, Jesus would come down to heaven and make Earth a perfect place. This verse is just talking about how the earth would have no more sins, because Jesus would make everything right again. There would no more sinners in the world, but hell still exist with people suffering in eternity.

And as for your rest of you supporting arguments, they aren't supportive. You've misunderstood all of the verse, and none of these verses truly show the meaning of how hell isn't eternity. (All your verses really just show scenarios of what would happen to evil on this earth when Jesus come down from heaven. None of your verse really explain how hell isn't eternity, but only explain how evil will be gone from the Earth and that the people who don't believe in God would die and go to hell.) Like I said earlier, I do know that there would be no more sins in this world because Jesus is to make everything right. However, hell continues to exist and people continue to suffer in eternity.

Now let me go to your contradictions of my claims.

You said "well. The punishment of the wicked is eternal. God will destroy them, they wont suffer forever! they will cease to exist FOREVER, that is a punishment... not existing is punishment... they wont suffer forever." This statement what you have said is completely absurd. Why? Well, first you said, "the punishment if the wicked is eternal". Do you know what the punishment is in the Bible? Well, it's SUFFERING according to the Bible! Saying this, and admitting that the punishment of the wicked is eternal basically makes you lose because that totally contradicts your claim which is that hell is not forever. Suffering is basically punishment, according to the Bible! But not only that, because you have said "The punishment of the wicked is eternal", this also contradicts the rest of the sentence in the quotation which is " they won't suffer forever! they will cease to exist FOREVER, that is a punishment... not existing is punishment... they won't suffer forever." And if you don't believe that punishment from God is suffering, check out this website: http://www.bibleinfo.com....

Knowing this, all my supporting claims for my argument is still firm to the ground.

Oh, and here's another bible verse I found about the eternity of hell

2 Thessalonians 1:9: They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

I wish you luck for the next round, and I can't wait to hear you soon.

Best wishes,
Jason








Debate Round No. 2
Debatwinnerpro

Con

When I said there punishment was eternal I was right... There punishment is ceasing to exist, forever... I think that is punishment enough...

Also... The word for destruction in the original Greek translation is "Apoleia" which means "destroying, utter destruction"

Some of the dead sea scrolls described roman emperors as "eternal"... The term eternal in Greek can mean for a lifetime or an era.
hmikeshin

Pro

First and for most, yes destruction and suffering aren't the same things. However, in the Bible, they have the same concept. In hell, you do feel destruction and suffering FOREVER. (This could basically be seen as pain.)


You also said, "I think that is punishment enough..." Please don't write what you think. Nobody really cares what you are thinking in a debate.

You also said "Some of the dead sea scrolls described roman emperors as 'eternal'... The term eternal in Greek can mean for a lifetime or an era." Please give a source to support that claim.

Also, you said, "There punishment is ceasing to exist, forever." Look at this statement. That statement is again, completely absurd. Why? Let me explain.

First, you completely contradicted your argument of "hell is not forever". You have ADMITTED that punishment is forever in hell. (And what is punishment in hell? It's basically suffering and being separated from God.)


Also, even if there may not be punishment in hell, at least the people who didn't believe in God are separated from God. And that was the purpose of hell in the first place. To be separated from God FOREVER.

Jesus Himself said "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life "(Matthew 25:46)

Jesus made clear that hell is eternal and forever.

Also eternal doesn't really mean "lifetime or an era". Think about it. According to the Bible, God literally created everything. He created the universe and even time. And the thing is, God may have said "eternal" in his perspective because He's the one who created everything. Continuing on, we know that God will never die because He's a perfect being. So this could literally conclude that eternal must mean forever. (However, the only way to eternal to die is if God dies. But God would never die, so basically we could see that eternal literally means forever.)

This could conclude that my hell is indeed forever.

Best wishes,
Jason

Debate Round No. 3
Debatwinnerpro

Con

"Also eternal doesn't really mean "lifetime or an era". Think about it. According to the Bible, God literally created everything. He created the universe and even time. And the thing is, God may have said "eternal" in his perspective because He's the one who created everything. Continuing on, we know that God will never die because He's a perfect being. So this could literally conclude that eternal must mean forever. (However, the only way to eternal to die is if God dies. But God would never die, so basically we could see that eternal literally means forever.)
"
This statement has no proof backing it up... It is merely your opinion.. I did think about it... But that would be useless.. I didn't think about it, I researched it and proved you wrong and me right.. :)

OK so... The original bible was written in Hebrew, Then translated to Greek.... then all these languages now....

In Hebrew there is actually no word for "Forever" there is literally no word for it.... The word actually used was "olam" which basically describes a long duration of time.. With an unknown length (http://jewishroots.net...) (that is a Jewish website explaining the word) that word was translated to to the Greek word "aion" which means a life, or a lifespan...

"It is a Latin transliteration from the koine Greek word P01; ^5;O84;a4;_7; (ho aion), from the archaic ^5;O84;b9;a4;_7; (aiwon). In Homer it typically refers to life or lifespan. Its latest meaning is more or less similar to the Sanskrit word kalpa and Hebrew word olam." (https://en.m.wikipedia.org...)

So basically the use of "eternal" and "forever" in the bible does not actually refer to an eternity.. Merely a specific period of time.. Once this time is over there will be nothing left of you... Please prove me wrong on this point

You keep saying Im contradicting my argument.... I am not... I am saying it is eternal because you are destroyed... No coming back from it... Eternally not existing... Not existing in itself is a punishment... Destruction means just what it implies you still can't back up your argument of destruction and suffering forever are the same thing.

Please don't just state your opinions state facts
hmikeshin

Pro

Listen,

When I have said "Also eternal doesn't really mean "lifetime or an era". Think about it. According to the Bible, God literally created everything. He created the universe and even time. And the thing is, God may have said "eternal" in his perspective because He's the one who created everything. Continuing on, we know that God will never die because He's a perfect being. So this could literally conclude that eternal must mean forever. (However, the only way to eternal to die is if God dies. But God would never die, so basically we could see that eternal literally means forever.)" this is not my opinion. It is plain logic. But not only that, there are evidences that supports it.

Let's make this more visual:

1) God is real. (Given from Round 1)

2) So, the Bible is real.

3) From step 2, we can soon say that God created everything.
- "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him." (Colossians 1:16)

4) We also know that nothing was created before God.
- "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (John 1:3)

5) This could also mean that God created things using His perspective. (I mean, what other sources could He have used to create anything. It was merely His imagination and His perspective.)

6) Knowing this, we could conclude that He created "eternalness" in his perspective. But not only that, in God's perspective eternal is forever to him, because He will always live forever.

7) So eternal means forever.

I would like to give a big shout-out to I_just_plant_the_seed.

I have to admit, he did give out a good point and I do agree with him.

I would like to say that you cannot look at the bible literally.

Perhaps, eternity may not literally mean forever. However, from the context of the Bible, not every single thing should be taken literally.

For example, when I have said "He grew tall as a tree," do I literally mean that, that person grew talk as the same height as a tree? Or do I mean that he just grew taller. The second choice is the most reasonable answer.

Just as this scenario, the bible shouldn't be taken literally.

These two website explain thoroughly of why the bible should not be taken literally. (Thank you I_just_plant_the_seed for these sources.):

http://bib.irr.org...

https://discovertheword.org...

So face the truth:

You keep looking at words in it's literal point of view. However, not everything in the bible should be taken literally, but figuratively.

This soon proves my point that eternal does mean forever, too.

However, that was the small stuff. Let's get in the juicy stuff.

You said "No coming back from it... Eternally not existing... " But not only that, you specifically said "eternally not existing". And the thing is, you're not existing WITH GOD. But not only that, you have said eternally. Which context are you using for this word, "eternally". Is eternal in this sentence mean forever, or a lifetime? Because I'm pretty sure you're using this word "eternal" as in forever. But above all you never support sources for this claim: You keep saying Im contradicting my argument.... I am not... I am saying it is eternal because you are destroyed... No coming back from it... Eternally not existing... Not existing in itself is a punishment... Destruction means just what it implies you still can't back up your argument of destruction and suffering forever are the same thing." Because this claim raises so many questions and with no sources, this claim is totally worthless.

Also, I do agree that destruction and suffering aren't the same thing. However, from the bible, they show the same concept that is held in hell: PAIN.

So this is my conclusion:

1) The bible shouldn't always be taken in its literal term.

2) Eternal does mean forever.

3) Hell is forever

These are my questions for you:

1) After round 2, you NEVER supported sources from the bible. Why?

2) Please explain your reasoning of why the bible should be taken literally.

From these reasonings and explanations, my arguments and claims are still solid and strong. Due to this, hell is indeed forever.

I would also like to say, thank you Pro, for having this debate.
I have learned so much and this was a great opportunity for me.
Thank you very much for having this debate.

I wish you luck as the voting period will begin.

Best wishes,
Jason

P.S. Wikipedia is not a good source.
Debate Round No. 4
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by MRAAJ.evil 6 months ago
MRAAJ.evil
#DebateWinnerNO

Hahaha hahaha ha
Posted by Debatwinnerpro 6 months ago
Debatwinnerpro
What the heck dude.

Back up "also the more sins you have committed the long your punishment would be.. so there would be no set end." this claim

Also, all your scriptural proof are incorrect as you back up that claim that hell is not forever. I thought we had agreed that you evidence from the bible don't make sense. Some of the people are saying so, too.

i have given plenty of scriptural proof.. you overlooked all of my scriptures but a few that were easy to disprove, ad you didnt even disprove them, and lovely grammar. i dont care that other people are saying it too lol... if someone said murder is good it doesnt prove or disprove anything
Posted by hmikeshin 6 months ago
hmikeshin
What the heck dude.

Back up "also the more sins you have committed the long your punishment would be.. so there would be no set end." this claim

Also, all your scriptural proof are incorrect as you back up that claim that hell is not forever. I thought we had agreed that you evidence from the bible don't make sense. Some of the people are saying so, too.
Posted by Debatwinnerpro 6 months ago
Debatwinnerpro
i have given tons of scriptural proof ... you just bring up one of my arguments... also the more sins you have committed the long your punishment would be.. so there would be no set end.
Posted by hmikeshin 6 months ago
hmikeshin
However, the word "olam" may mean different things in the different context of the bible.

But if we get an overall view, it basically means forever, or a time span without ANY END.
Posted by hmikeshin 6 months ago
hmikeshin
If you actually read the thing, it says "Hebrew it means 'to the distant horizon and again' meaning 'a very distant time and even further'"

How would you even define the word "FURTHER"?

When it says "even further" it doesn't DEFINE a point where it ENDS. Which means it could be never-ending.
Posted by Debatwinnerpro 7 months ago
Debatwinnerpro
Olam actually makes sense... Olam is a long period of time without a set end.. In hell you would have more sins to burn away... So no set time for how long it lasts
Posted by Debatwinnerpro 7 months ago
Debatwinnerpro
But wait! I have this jewish website written by someone who knows what he is talking about http://jewishroots.net...

But wait... A stackexchange forum written by CHRISTIANS who dont know about jewish roots? Wow that REALLY DID disprove my argument... No it didnt
Posted by Debatwinnerpro 7 months ago
Debatwinnerpro
Nice trustable source ;) i brought up a jewish website... But you destroyed my argument with.... A stackexchange forum... Nice so trustable.. I might have to change my opinion because of a a DAMN FORUM... YOU WISH XD
Posted by hmikeshin 7 months ago
hmikeshin
Ignore the comment I did after the "olam" comment.
Sorry.

I've got to be honest, that's not good.
No votes have been placed for this debate.