The Instigator
unalyigit
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Axerz
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Is Illuminati a real organization?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Axerz
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,386 times Debate No: 33706
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

unalyigit

Pro

I think, Illuminati is real. They're in everywhere! The world is controlling by this organization. They want to control our brains with some subliminal messages. The nuclear power, money, international companies, banks, wars (for example: September 11)....
Axerz

Con

I accept, I do not believe the illuminati exists.

You can make up a conspiracy for almost everything, but, it's irrational to do so.

But, I think there are a few things that need to be done before the debate.

Definitions

Illiuminati: A secret group of people who are said to rule the wordl.

Real (according to the Oxford Dictionary): actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed


Burden of proof

Since it is very hard to prove something doesn't exists (read: virtually impossible), I suggest the Burden of Proof is yours.
Debate Round No. 1
unalyigit

Pro

I think, Illuminati is real. Their messages are everywhere. Why? Are they kidding us? For what? You think, my examples aren't enough. Ok, I want to read your examples. Why is Illuminate not real? I suggest the Burden of Proof isn't only mine. It is ours. You tactic isn't fair. You are asking, why is Illuminati real? But first of all, you must write your examples too. There are my examples:
1- American Dollar
2- Subliminal Messages
3- September 11
4- The files. You can read them in Wikipedia. Illuminati is real. They were in Germany. But they were closed years ago. They can be closed too. But they're working and are not closed. http://de.wikipedia.org... ( This website is in the German Wiki. You can find it in English too)
5- Skull and Bones
6- Illuminati Card Game
Axerz

Con

Burden of Proof

I can’t proof it doesn’t exist, I can only proof there is no evidence for its existence. Even if there is no evidence they might still exist. But I ‘ll do my best.

Hidden signs

People tend to claim that there are signs everywhere. Well, this is irrational. If I would want to run the world, I wouldn’t want the people to know the truth. Because truth has a power of its own. The person stood up against their government when they found out the war in Vietnam wasn’t justified. People stood up for their rights in France when the king was oppressing the people. The people voted against Bush when they learned the war in Iraq wasn’t justified. So why would this organization leave hidden messages everywhere when that would only endanger them? That doesn’t make any sense. If people are smart enough to secretly run the world, they certainly won’t be stupid enough to do so.

Another thing which is often forgotten is that the illuminati conspiracy is a chance for a lot of celebrities to get some attention. You just put a hidden illuminati message in your video, and *poof* everyone is talking about you. C’mon, who would take advantage of that?

An “umbrella organization”

The Illuminati conspiracy includes almost everyone: Disney, Hannah Montana, Eminem, Democrats, Republicans, banks, scientists, media, actors and so on. Everyone seems to be a part of the Illuminati. Everyone who differs in opinion is just pretending, because In reality, they are all uniting to take over the world. So basically, if Illuminati is real, everyone is lying, scientist are producing misinformation about everything. On the other side, if it is not real, only youtube clips and conspiracy theorists are…. Mmmh, what sounds more likely?

If they exists, they have failed

Illuminati is said to have existed for a long time. They are believed to be taking over the world, and replacing democracy with a new world order. But, let’s have a look at history, are they succeeding?

- North and South Korea are still separated.

- Chezoslowakia was separated in two countries, the Chez republic and Slovakia.

- Chechnya wants to separate from Russia.

- Kosovo has declared independence.

- The European Union is falling apart.

The devil-like sign

People have claimed that members of the illuminati making a devil-like sign with their hands to prove their membership. Although I have already stated that these signs are very unlikely, I would still like to respond to it. I don’t know if you have ever been acting on a stage, or if you have ever been on television, but if you have, you know how nervous you are, and that you are constantly moving your fingers, without even noticing it yourself. I have seen the devil sign a lot among actors, or people who are nervous (and be honest, we can understand that a politician is nervous during a debate).

Your examples

1- American Dollar

Many people claim that there are some hidden signs on the American dollar. This argument ignores the possibility that is just a coincidence. But if you search hard enough, yes, you might find a few “hidden signs”.


And about the pyramid, this is a very old symbol. It’s the all seeing eye from Egypt:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

And yes, it does say: Novus ordo seclorum, but that makes perfect sense. Because their was a new order in America. The English had been defeated, and their was a real American government!


2- Subliminal Messages
I ‘ve talked about this a lot already, and it just doesn’t make sense. Why would a organization that runs the world in secret be like: “Hey, we want to keep our existence a secret. And in order to keep it a secret, we must hide clues everywhere”.

3 September 11

Yeah? We know this happened. Some people angry at the USA because of their foreign policy attacked the Twin Towers. Why would this prove the illuminati?


4- The files. You can read them in Wikipedia. Illuminati is real. They were in Germany. But they were closed years ago. They can be closed too. But they're working and are not closed.
http://de.wikipedia.org...... ( This website is in the German Wiki. You can find it in English too)

Ehm yeah, there are some organizations that call their selves “Illuminati”. But then again, isn’t that a perfect way to get attentions you don’t deserve. (sorry I couldn’t read the whole article, I don’t speak german)


5- Skull and Bones

As I said before, in modern culture, everyone is a part of the illuminati.

6- Illuminati Card Game

This is a card game inspired from an IMAGINARY trilogy. In this trilogy, there are some imaginary conspiracies mixed with facts.

Debate Round No. 2
unalyigit

Pro

Hidden signs
This strategy can be useful too. Think, you are controlling by a satanic group and you can't feel it. And this is not true. Illuminati wants control the world and they need to control the humans. And they can control the world without a war! Another theory: The first Illuminati was in Germany and they closed. But Illuminati opened again and they're stronger than the past. Illuminati needs fear, because they are a satanic group. And they can have it with the hidden messages.

An "umbrella organization"
Yes some of the celebrities are working for Illuminati, because they want more money. You are controlling the world, you can control all the money too. Some of the scientists are working for them too. Because they can work better, when the most famous religion atheism is. Illuminati is satanic, right, but they don't want the god. Atheists don't want the good too. They want a 'illuminated' world.

If they exists, they have failed
It is not important at all. They can be successful or not. Our main question is 'Is Illuminati a real organisation?'.But I said, they closed years ago. They can't control the world, when they were closed :D

American Dollar
Ok, good point. 'Novus ordo seclorum.' You know, what means it? Ok, this is about a NEW WORLD, right? What? A new world? What is this new world? This is the NEW WORLD ORDER! You can search it. And our main point is, America is working for Illuminati. You are finding your own examples, but you need search about this organisation.

Subliminal Messages
We spoke about it! This is a good tactic. You must have a logic example.

September 11
Ok, that was a good strategy too. This towers, a crash, El Kaide? Economy of America is good. Because Illuminati is using this government. I said, they want to destroy the religions. 'El Kaide did it, Arabs and Muslims are killers. Let's kill them!' The most famous argument is this. Why? The flight tower can find them before the crash. But they didn't. Why? The police and ambulance can come in 2 minutes. But they didn't. Why? This was a message too. They said 'We are Illuminati. We can destroy all your country because we made your economy good. We can make it bad too. But don't worry about it. El Kaide did it. You can't find me but you can find them. Let's kill them.' El Kaide said 'Yes, we did it!' Why? Because they needed financial support and money for new soldiers and weapons. And it is a known fact, all the members of Illuminati are rich. Good tactic, right?

Skull and Bones
You said, everyone is a part of Illuminati it wasn't enough.

Illuminati Card Game
Ok, find some Illuminati cards, please! The Illuminati cards are older than the September 11 assault. There are some real facts. September 11, Pentagon, tsunami in Japan.... They can't be mixed with facts, because Illuminati cards were selling, before those accidents and assaults happened.
Axerz

Con

Hidden signs
“This strategy can be useful too. Think, you are controlling by a satanic group and you can't feel it. And this is not true. Illuminati wants control the world and they need to control the humans. And they can control the world without a war! Another theory: The first Illuminati was in Germany and they closed. But Illuminati opened again and they're stronger than the past. Illuminati needs fear, because they are a satanic group. And they can have it with the hidden messages.”

So, if they were in Germany, wouldn’t that mean they WERE real?’

But, no kidding, what you are saying is that there is a satanic group which includes almost everyone. Now, I can’t prove you’re wrong, even though I will argue that you have no evidence, it might be true. But, it just sounds very unlikely, doesn’t it?


An "umbrella organization"
Yes some of the celebrities are working for Illuminati, because they want more money. You are controlling the world, you can control all the money too. Some of the scientists are working for them too. Because they can work better, when the most famous religion atheism is. Illuminati is satanic, right, but they don't want the god. Atheists don't want the good too. They want a 'illuminated' world.

Yes, they can work better when the main religion is atheism, and you know why? Because science is based on evidence, and there is no evidence for god. Most scientists claim to support scepticism. We don’t know whether god exists, but because there is no real evidence, we assume he doesn’t. And that is exactly my position on the whole illuminate thing.


If they exists, they have failed

It is not important at all. They can be successful or not. Our main question is 'Is Illuminati a real organisation?'.But I said, they closed years ago. They can't control the world, when they were closed :D

I am just saying that if this organisation existed, and was really that big, it is very likely that they would have managed to achieve their goals, because almost everyone is in it. But you see, they haven’t, so that makes it more likely that they didn’t exist. .


American Dollar


Ok, good point. 'Novus ordo seclorum.' You know, what means it? Ok, this is about a NEW WORLD, right? What? A new world? What is this new world? This is the NEW WORLD ORDER! You can search it. And our main point is, America is working for Illuminati. You are finding your own examples, but you need search about this organisation.

I know what it means, I have been studying latin for quite a few years now. It means : “a new order has begun", which is true. The British were the former order, and they were replaced by people such as George Washington.

Subliminal Messages
We spoke about it! This is a good tactic. You must have a logic example.
If they wanted to cause fear, they would do it better. Fewer people now about the conspiracy, and just a few of them believe in it.


September 11
Ok, that was a good strategy too. This towers, a crash, El Kaide? Economy of America is good. Because Illuminati is using this government. I said, they want to destroy the religions. 'El Kaide did it, Arabs and Muslims are killers. Let's kill them!' The most famous argument is this. Why? The flight tower can find them before the crash. But they didn't. Why? The police and ambulance can come in 2 minutes. But they didn't. Why? This was a message too. They said 'We are Illuminati. We can destroy all your country because we made your economy good. We can make it bad too. But don't worry about it. El Kaide did it. You can't find me but you can find them. Let's kill them.' El Kaide said 'Yes, we did it!' Why? Because they needed financial support and money for new soldiers and weapons. And it is a known fact, all the members of Illuminati are rich. Good tactic, right?

It is true that arm dealers are lobbying for wars, they need to protect their business. However, what you are saying is that the whole attack was done by the illuminate, however, you provide no proof for it. On the other hand, the attack has been claimed by al qaeda. So unless you can prove that Al Qaeda is lying, or they are a part of the Illuminati, this argument is invalid.

About the ambulance and the police: People make mistakes, but that doesn’t mean that there is an organisation behind it.


Skull and Bones
You said, everyone is a part of Illuminati it wasn't enough.
As I said before, that makes their existence more unlikely, because it is virtually impossible that such a big and powerful organisation can’t even take over the world, when they have all the power they need.


Illuminati Card Game
Ok, find some Illuminati cards, please! The Illuminati cards are older than the September 11 assault. There are some real facts. September 11, Pentagon, tsunami in Japan.... They can't be mixed with facts, because Illuminati cards were selling, before those accidents and assaults happened.

  1. 1. This game was based on a fictional book series. The series included some conspiracies, mixed up with some real life events. It was all about chaos, and evil conspiracies, and these things fitted.
  2. 2. About the terrorism card: we just see a plane flying into a building. That sounds like a good idea for a card game with this theme, doesn’t it? I would also include such a card.
  3. 3. About the tsunami in Japan: Please don’t tell me the illuminate caused a tsunami. How on earth is that even possible?!
I'd like to thank my opponent for this debate. And vote con!
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by IslamAhmadiyya 1 year ago
IslamAhmadiyya
I can prove the Illuminati exists...it is simple.

Do you believe that secret societies exist? This is an obvious yes, because secret societies DO exist. Ever listened to JFK's speech about secret societies? There are many secret societies in this world.

Several of them have become more open in the past couple years, some are still unknown to most of the public, but a little research, and you'll find them.

But if you already accept the fact there there are secret societies in this world, societies that like to be kept secret, then you must also accept the fact that some of these secret societies like to work together to accomplish a common goal they have with one another.

It is the same as multiple governments of different nations, working together to win a war. The only difference is that this is not always on a political level, but a secular level, most of the time, hidden from public announcement.

Multiple secret societies that work together to try and accomplish a goal.

This...SYSTEM of functionalists...is simply CODE NAMED...Illuminati.

This is the code name that people use to describe this process.

It is very easy to understand. Many people have just heard of this word and immediately assumed that it is a secret society.

NO, it isn't A secret society, it is a name for the system of multiple secret societies working together to accomplish certain goals.

This is NOT NEW in this world, this has been happening for countless centuries in the past, even during the Crusades, even during the great world wars, in every time period. The 'Illuminati' existed in every time period, meaning, secret societies like this have existed in ALL different time periods, societies working together to execute plans and accomplish certain goals, whatever they may be.

This is nothing new.

Take note of what I am saying, it will benefit you in the long run. Don't bother rebutting what I said, because what I said is simply stating the facts of what goes o
Posted by Imagicka 1 year ago
Imagicka
If you can prove that something doesn't exist, then prove that Easter Bunny doesn't exist.
Posted by Emmo 1 year ago
Emmo
would have loved to be in this argument
Posted by Axerz 1 year ago
Axerz
Well, yeah, but it is very hard.

For example, I could prove Pro wrong on everything he said, but then there might still be an illuminati. We only never managed to discover it.

In some cases, it is impossible:

God: I can search everywhere, I can prove all scientific laws, but it might well be possible that he somewhere i haven't searched yet (since the universe is very big). And from that place, he might be controlling the universe.

Do you understand what I 'm saying?
Posted by adontimasu 1 year ago
adontimasu
You can prove that something doesn't exist . . .
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by jh1234l 1 year ago
jh1234l
unalyigitAxerzTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Spelling and grammar: in several cases Pro's words cannot be comprehended. For example, "They can work together when the most famous religion atheism is" Does not even say "is what". I had to give sources to con: pro misrepresented his sources. The english version of his source reveals that it was just saying that there are some groups named Illuminati, but it did not say that the new world order type of Illuminati exists. No sources is better than using sources that were misrepresented just to make your case look more "reasonable". Conduct: Pro just labels groups of people (such as athiests) as a part of the Illuminati without evidence, which is offensive and if the same thing was directed to an individual without evidence, then in some places that will break the anti defamation law. Arguments to con because pro never elaborated on his case until con posted rebuttals. Pro therefore did not meet his burden of proof because not enough reasoning was used to prove his case.
Vote Placed by Frank_Blascovic 1 year ago
Frank_Blascovic
unalyigitAxerzTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro is a nutjob with no credible evidence.