The Instigator
ChristianAnarchist
Pro (for)
The Contender
Moobattle
Con (against)

Is Jesus God? (Christian vs Muslim Debate)

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/1/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 450 times Debate No: 103079
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (6)
Votes (0)

 

ChristianAnarchist

Pro

My opening argument for the thesis on Jesus being God is that not only did he affirm and claim deity, but his own disciples believed in his deity as well.

In order for my opponent to win this debate, he/she will have to demonstrate these three forms of criteria:
1. The Bible consistently as a whole attests to Jesus not being God.
2. The Old Testament is exclusively Unitarian.
3. Only Unitarianism is Monotheism.

If my opponent can make an alternative form of criteria that is sufficient for the needs of the audience, then I will debate those terms as well with acceptance of the standards we are putting on the table.

This round will be used to accept the challenge. My opponent can either accept or use his first reply here to be a chance to make an opening statement while I also respond.
Moobattle

Con

Jesus is part of a "Holy Trinity" including God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, those three things being separate parts of the same whole. This would make Jesus not God, but a third of him.

In addition, John 1:1-3 states "In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Logically, this is impossible, as nothing can both be with someone and a part of them simultaneously.

Christianity has several contradictory statements in its Holy Book that, taken in whole, seem to indicate Jesus has some prevalent connection to God, but is not the Great I Am themself.
Debate Round No. 1
ChristianAnarchist

Pro

First of all, I would like to thank my opponent for accepting the debate offer.

Before I rebuttal his case points, I will simply lay out my case as to why Jesus is God based on the scriptures in which talk of Jesus (Isa).

Besides several of his apostles recognizing him as God (Thomas in John 20:28, Peter in 2 Peter 1:1, John in John 1, etc.), Isaiah makes a prophecy about the Messiah in which the Messiah is called many names. One of which in Isaiah 9:6 is gib"b!3;"wr "l (Mighty God) in the Hebrew. So the prophecy about Jesus here is in reference to also him being God manifest in the flesh. My opponent may object by saying the Old Testament does not contain an idea or thought of Jewish Trinitarianism. Really? I would suggest my opponent read up on Jewish Scholarship by Rabbinical Scholars like Daniel Boyarin and Alan F. Segal. Even modern scholar, Dr. Benjamin Sommer, a professor at Jewish Theological Seminary of America, notes this view I am about to tell you.

There was a view in early Judaism that was orthodox known as the "Two Powers in Heaven" view. Daniel Boyarin in his book, Jewish Gospels, notes the following in page 5. He notes that the Jews "believed that God had a divine deputy or emissary or even son, exalted above all the angels, who functioned as an intermediary between God and the world in creation, revelation, and redemption." Some aspects of this can be found in Genesis 18, Genesis 32, Exodus 3, etc.

These verses point out of an "Angel (messenger) of YHWH" who is actually engaging with his creation in physical form. This is why many early Jews were able to convert to Christianity since they had this view in mind and heard of it. Even the Babylonian Talmud notes this by mentioning the Metatron in Sanhedrin 38b: "R. Nahman said: He who is as skilled in refuting the Minim as is R. Idith, let him do so; but not otherwise. Once a Min said to R. Idith: It is written, And unto Moses He said, Come up to the Lord. But surely it should have stated, Come up unto me! " It was Metatron [who said that], he replied, whose name is similar to that of his Master, for it is written, For my name is in him. But if so, [he retorted,] we should worship him! The same passage, however, " replied R. Idith says: Be not rebellious against him, i.e., exchange Me not for him. But if so, why is it stated: He will not pardon your transgression? He answered: By our troth we would not accept him even as a messenger,61 for it is written, And he said unto him, If Thy [personal] presence go not etc."

So based on Jewish theology, it would not be unorthodox for Christians, especially Jewish Christians, to make this connection like the early Jews did.

The Bible makes plenty of claims in which Jesus only admits to doing things that God is said to do such as forgive sins (Mark 2:5-10), is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:27-28), Jesus made himself God (John 10:30-33), Jesus called himself the YHWH title in Greek (John 8:58-59), etc.

I can go on, but I will save that for the rebuttals.

Now to rebuttals:

"Jesus is part of a "Holy Trinity" including God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, those three things being separate parts of the same whole. This would make Jesus not God, but a third of him."

RESPONSE: My opponent has misrepresented the Trinity by saying that Jesus is not God according to it, but is a third of him. That is a faulty understanding of the Trinity and I would never do that to any Islamic doctrine in regards to what the Quran, Hadith and Islamic Scholars say. The Trinity is that all three persons are fully God and make up the one being known as God. If my opponent is going to argue against the Trinity, at least represent it accurately.

"In addition, John 1:1-3 states "In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Logically, this is impossible, as nothing can both be with someone and a part of them simultaneously."

RESPONSE: According to what standard do you base this off of? Because if your a Muslim, which I am assuming based on my title open invitation to the audience, then many people will say that Muhammad splitting the moon and Muhammad's night flight is also logically impossible.

"Christianity has several contradictory statements in its Holy Book that, taken in whole, seem to indicate Jesus has some prevalent connection to God, but is not the Great I Am themself."

RESPONSE: I will simply point that if Jesus is not the I AM, then why does Jesus claim to be so in John 8:58-59 and was going to be stoned by the Jews for that.

I am honestly hoping for my laid out detailed responses so that I may actually go into more detail during the rest of this debate. I hope that the next couple of rounds bring plenty of wisdom and knowledge for those reading to decide rather or not one or the other is right or wrong. Thank you.
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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by FollowerofChrist1955 6 months ago
FollowerofChrist1955
The Biblical narrative demonstrates God in three persons, makes no difference that YOU cannot find it. That is because YOU have not the Holy Spirit to lead you. Search Revelation 12 on the internet, don't believe the interpretations though ... just read it, cause only God interprets scripture.

The Bible also claims to tell the future before a thing becomes History. On the 23rd of September 2017 a Biblical sign shall become History. The sign of the woman is over your head right now, and the entire passage versus 1-2 and verse 5 will become History on the 23rd. Oh stop at the birth, the rest Shall remain hidden from you, because I choose to keep it hidden from you, but it CAN be known IF you yourself seek this information. Hint: check Micah 5.
Posted by wmickas 6 months ago
wmickas
hey CA, I did not know you were doing the debate on debate.org
Posted by ChristianAnarchist 6 months ago
ChristianAnarchist
The point I'm making with the third is that there is more than one level of monotheism. Unitarianism and Trinitarianism aren't the only ones. You have Binitarianism with the "Two Powers" view in early ancient Judaism as noted by Jewish scholars like Daniel Boyarin and Alan F. Segal. Then as Michael Sommerfield notes, there are even various views in Jewish thought to 10 persons in 1 being that was still orthodox Jewish monotheism.
Posted by Rightreform 6 months ago
Rightreform
I would consider myself a nontrinitarian and I would argue your points except for the third I am not sure of the point you are making. If you want to argue any point lets keep it to the James White and Greg Stafford debate where Stafford claims "it does not matter what we call it monotheism or henotheism if it is what the bible says then that is the truth.
Posted by ChristianAnarchist 6 months ago
ChristianAnarchist
Because that's a popular topic since one of the views of the Christian scriptures in Islam is tahrif al-mana, in which this means Muslims believe the distortion or corruption that has occurred is only in interpretation and meaning, not in the words. Islamic apologists like Shabir Ally and others will show that the bible has prophecies about Muhammad and that in these words, the bible promotes Islam by Islamic prophets.
Posted by philochristos 6 months ago
philochristos
If this debate is over the meaning of the old and new testaments, then why do you want your opponent to be Muslim, speciically?
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