The Instigator
TheWORDisLIFE
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Robert_Weiler
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Is Jesus God?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
TheWORDisLIFE
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/27/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 740 times Debate No: 72454
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (20)
Votes (1)

 

TheWORDisLIFE

Con

Is Jesus actually God? Catholicsm/Christianity teach that Jesus is God, yet the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God. I will be proving, with the Bible, that Jesus is not God.

I will be arguing as CON and PRO must refute my points using the Bible only.


Rules for this debate:

1. Opponent MUST be a Christian/Catholic

2. Opponent MUST believe Jesus is God

3. Opponent MUST stay on topic and no rules can/will be changed

4. Opponent MUST refute my claims with the Bible only

5. Opponent MUST give precepts for each verse(s) he/she uses.

*If any of the above rules are disobeyed, PRO will automatically lose this debate.

Arguments:

R1 - Acceptance and agreement only, of the five statues listed above

R2 - Arguments/Refutes

R3 - Arguments/Refutes

R4 - Arguments/Refutes

R5 - Concluding statements

I know that in Catholisicm/Christianity, the use of precepts is not taught. The Bible teaches us that we MUST go precept upon precept.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Psalm 119:93
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Precept:

1. In a general sense, any commandment or order intended as an authoritative rule of action; but applied particularly to commands respecting moral conduct. The ten commandments are so many precepts for the regulation of our moral conduct.

No arts are without their precepts.

2. In law, a command or mandate in writing.


Good luck to you PRO!
Robert_Weiler

Pro

I accept and agree to the rules.

I must, however, ask what you mean by giving a precept for a Bible verse, since a precept is a law or command as you defined it above, this rule doesn't seem to make much sense.
Debate Round No. 1
TheWORDisLIFE

Con

I thank PRO for accepting.

I’m opening up with Matthew 1:1 which states that Christ has a genealogy.

Matthew 1:1

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

{The book of the generation of Jesus Christ – verses 2-16 give a breakdown of Jesus Christ’s forefathers.}

Genealogy: a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.

The Biology term for Genealogy: a group of individuals or species having a common ancestry:

Forefather: a member of the past generations of one's family or people; an ancestor.

Matthew 1:16

16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

[Joseph is mentioned in the genealogy of Christ for a reason – Christ came from the seed or sperm of Joseph. If Christ only came through Mary without Joseph, why would it mention Joseph in v16? When someone has a genealogy, it means that they have ancestors, which are genetically related to one another, they come from the same bloodline.]

Seed: Progeny; offspring; children; descendants; as the seed of Abraham; the seed of David. In this sense, the word is applied to one person, or to any number collectively, and admits of the plural form; but rarely used in the plural.

Race; generation; birth.

Precepts– Matt 1:16

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Romans 1:3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

{Christ was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; -meaning Christ came from the sperm of David in the flesh and in order for someone to be born in the flesh they need an earthly father and mother.}



Hebrews 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

{An angel does not need an earthly father and mother to have conceive, they are not made that way. So when v16 says, “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels” it is saying that Christ was not immaculately born. “but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”-He took on him the sperm/seed of Abraham;.}

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

{“to be made like unto his brethren “–Christ was made like His brethren. What does it take for a woman to conceive? A male’s sperm to fertilize her egg. So Christ came into the world as you and I have, through our parents having sex.}

Precept – unto his brethren

Deuteronomy 18:18: I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

{The Most High God told Moses that HE will raise up a PROPHET (Jesus Christ) from among the Israelites brethren, “, like unto thee” –meaning He is going to come into the world just as Moses, in the flesh and in order for a person to be born in the flesh they need to be created by sperm and an egg. Moses was not immaculately born. By this verse it should be acknowledged that Christ was not God because He was a Prophet and God said, “and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” –so The Most High God of Israel put HIS words in Christ and Christ spoke them.}

Precept – Deut 18:18

Acts 13:23: Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

These are a few verses to show that Christ was not immaculately born, and He is not God.




Now I’m going to go to the MOST famous verse Christians use to say that Jesus is God.

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

{Let’s find out what the word “God” means. God is NOT The Most High’s name. God means powers or rulers. If God was The Most High’s name, there would only be one meaning/definition for God, but as seen below, God has different meanings.}

God: divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God's (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1).

So now let’s get the understanding of John 1:1.

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Precept – Word

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

{Showing that the Word is Christ}

Precept – Word was with God

Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

{The LORD (God) said unto my Lord (Christ) –David is saying two different Lords here….It’s God and Jesus Christ.}

Precept – the Word was God

Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

{So we see that this verse says, “Let US make man in OUR image,” –The “us” and “our” is referring to The Father; Jesus Christ, and the angels. We know Christ was with our Father in heaven according to Psalms 110:1.)

Precept – Genesis 1:26

1 King 22:19-21

19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

{The Most High is having counsel with HIS angelic Host…}

21: And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

{This proves that The Most High God has counsel just like in Genesis 1:26. So now we see what the word “God” means.}

{So now, we know that the Word (Christ) was made in the flesh (John 1:14), but if we still say Christ is God, then there would be no need for Christ to have a genealogy (Matt 1:1-16), which is also a contradiction to the Bible, and it also takes the power away from the Almighty one. This is why Christians pray directly to Jesus and not The Most High.}






I want to point out something else in John 1:1

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

{So the word is Christ, and the Word or Christ was WITH God; WITH is showing a separation between two entities; and the Word was God; so if Christ was with God, how could He be God when He is with God?}

Questions to CON:

1 If Jesus was God, why would Satan tempt God, into disobeying HIS (God’s) own commands?

2 So if Christ was with God, how could He be God when He is with God?

*Note – You MUST know what God the Scriptures are talking about. There are two different Gods’ in the Bible. God as in The Most High God, then there is God as in Christ and the Angels. So it is imperative that you know which God exactly the Bible is talking about.

PRO I hope by you seeing the precepts I provided that you will be able to understand how to search and how to apply the precepts.

Robert_Weiler

Pro

I apologize, I thought I would have more time off work to research for this debate. I was incorrect.

I concede.

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 2
TheWORDisLIFE

Con

I appreciate your honesty PRO. Hopefully we can do this debate again some time; you can set it up. Just let me know when you're available and have more time.
Robert_Weiler

Pro

I appreciate your understanding and look forward to a good debate with you sometime in the future. This debate unfortunately, requires time and study to not waste your time.

I have conceded. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
TheWORDisLIFE

Con

Thank you again PRO for the honesty.

Extend...
Robert_Weiler

Pro

Conceded. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 4
TheWORDisLIFE

Con

Thank you for the attempt to debate. Good luck to you in your other debates PRO.
Robert_Weiler

Pro

Conceded. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
No, I'm not a Mormon, I'm a Jew. I don't like the NIV simple for the fact that it has missing verses and it calls Jesus, Lucifer.

Isaiah 14:12 - How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16 - "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

2 Peter 1:19 - We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Revelation 2:28 - I will also give that one the morning star.

The owner of the NIV has take and added to the Word of God. The ones who translated the NIV, are homosexuals, therefore the NIV is corrupted.
Posted by dub8 1 year ago
dub8
Just out of curiosity, are you a Mormon? Also, do you have any objections to modern translations (like the NIV)?
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
I will create the debate and you don't have to use precepts. I will create the debate in a few days becaus I will be attending Passover.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
I will quote Inigo Montoya in regards to "precept" - "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

I know the meaning of precept I just don't think you know how to find them and apply them.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

So it says who shall he teach knowledge to? and who shall he make to understand the Bible? those that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts, meaning those who are born again in Christ.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

This is how the babes (born again in Christ) must be taught in order to understand the Bible. Precept must be upon precept.

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

The other tongue is the Laws, 1 Cor 14:21.

Precepts are the Laws. We apply precepts to key words, after another commandment or to define another Bible verse, that's how precepts are used.

Psalm 19:8: The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

The statues (precepts) of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment (precept) of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Posted by dub8 1 year ago
dub8
I will quote Inigo Montoya in regards to "precept" - "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

If you read that verse in context, the chapter begins "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim" and then goes on to discuss how foolish these people are. Just look at the two verses that book-end what you're dogmatically insisting be the rules for this debate:

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line;
here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Even if you're correct, I strongly disagree that this verse is explicitly commanding that we systematically follow a specific method and be legalistic about how we communicate our position.

If it's not enough for you for your opponent to simply use scripture and logic to support an opposing position, you may need to find another opponent. Either way, I hope you will take the time to research the context of that scripture and make sure you're not being too zealous in your approach to dialogue and debate. Jesus had some choice words for the Pharisees for being hypocritical and legalistic about such matters.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
The reason why I want precepts is because of the verses I listed. Precept must be upon precept, it's a commandment and that is how we must read the Bible.
Posted by dub8 1 year ago
dub8
I have no issue presenting evidence from scripture. I don't think you should be so legalistic about the format and be more concerned about making a sound argument. I can fully support my position anchored in scripture references if you're ready.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
Isaiah 28:9-10

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

This is how we are instructed to read the Bible. We must go back and forth from book to book, from old covenant to new covenant, in order to get the understanding of what the Bible is really saying. It's a bit difficult to explain the use of precepts; it comes naturally when the Law is in us.
Posted by dub8 1 year ago
dub8
Your use of precepts to support your argument are a bit confusing. If the rules are to use scripture to support the argument and conclusion, I can do this. If you have some specific expectations for how these arguments need to be constructed and formatted I'm not sure I can derive this from your first example.
Posted by TheWORDisLIFE 1 year ago
TheWORDisLIFE
@dub8

Before I invite you to debate, I want to make certain, do you know how to find and apply precepts?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
TheWORDisLIFERobert_WeilerTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession