The Instigator
Clash
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
Pboy21
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Is Jesus God?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Clash
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/30/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 931 times Debate No: 23287
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (0)
Votes (1)

 

Clash

Con

Pboy21 wants so much to have this debate with me, so let's do this. I will argue that Jesus is not God, and Pboy21 will argue that Jesus is God.


Rules


Round 1: Acceptance only

Round 2: Arguments only

Round 3: Rebuttal to the opponent's arguments in round 2

Round 4: More rebuttal and closing statements
Pboy21

Pro

okay lets begin
Debate Round No. 1
Clash

Con

Thank you. I'm looking forward to have this debate with you.

Note: My arguments will be the same as those I had in my debate with amberfairygirl, which was about this same topic.


Arguments

I will give 12 reasons as to why Jesus is not God:

1) Jesus never said 'I am God'

If Jesus indeed was God, then he would clearly have said so. Why would Jesus, If he was God, not say that he was God? Its like a ruler of a country who don't want to say himself that he is the ruler. Its all just absurd, don't you think? The fact of the matter is that, logically and probably, if Jesus was indeed God, he would directly say so. He didn't, and so there is more probable that Jesus is indeed not God. I challenge Pro to give me just one statement from the Bible where Jesus says directly and without a doubt, and not the other Bible people like John, Paul, Luke etc, that 'I am God'.


2) Jesus is the son of man, the Bible says that God is not a son of man

1: According to Christians, the Bible is the word of God

2: The Bible says that God is not the son of man.

3: At the same time, the Bible says several times that Jesus is the son of man

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God


The Bible saying that God is not a son of man:

God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)


The Bible saying that Jesus is a son of man:

And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head. (Mat 8:209)

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. (Mat 9:6)


3) Jesus denied being good in the sense that God is good

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mat 19:16-17)


Note when that man calls Jesus good, Jesus says to him that there is no good but God. Obviously, Jesus referred to God as someone else, which also proves that Jesus isn't God. However, the main importance of this passage is that Jesus denies being good in the way God is good, which is to be perfect.


4) Jesus prayed and worshiped

Are you going worship the one Jesus worshiped to, or are you going to worship Jesus? Or did God worship himself? The Bible clearly says that Jesus worshiped to someone, and the only conclusion to that fact is that Jesus cannot be God. God does not need to worship anybody, because he is God. To say that God worsiped someone, is like saying that God is not God anymore. It's basically... pure absurdity.

Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING. (Matthew 26:36-44)


5) Jesus was not all knowing

1: God is all knowing

2: Jesus was not all knowing

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Mark 13:32)


6) Jesus said he had a father

1: God has no father

2: Jesus said that he had a father

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God


...But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Mark 13:32)


7) Jesus changed

1: God does not change

2: Jesus changed

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God

The Bible informs us that God does not change: I the Lord do not change. (Malachi 3:6). Jesus however went through many changes in his life such as age, height, weight etc.


8) Jesus was not the greatest

1: Nobody is greater than God

2: Jesus said that somebody was greater than him

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God


My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)


This verse is very clear in itself, the Father is greater than Jesus. Who can be greater than Jesus if he is God?


9) No one has ever seen God

According to John 5:37, Jesus said that no one had ever seen God at anytime or ever heard his voice. And yet people did see Jesus and heard his voice, which proves that Jesus cannot be God.


10) Jesus says that he himself has a God

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her. (John 20:15-18)

Jesus clearly says in this verse that he has a God, and thus totally refuting the idea that Jesus himself is God.


11) Jesus was tempted by the devil

1: God cannot be tempted by the devil

2: Jesus was tempted by the devil

Conclusion: Jesus cannot be God

“….and Jesus for forty days in the wilderness was tempted by the devil” (Luke 4:1)


12) Jesus can by his own self do nothing


I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30)

The fact that Jesus said that he by his own self can do nothing, and that he said that someone had sent him, completely refutes the claim that Jesus is God to any person with a sound mind. Can God by his own self do nothing? And is God someone who get sent by others?

In fact, the Bible mentions that Jesus was sent by someone else more than just in this verse, and thus refuting the claim that Jesus is God even more:


… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. (John 14:24)


And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent. (John 17:3)


Conclusion

The divinity of Jesus was never taught by Jesus himself, and has no origin in the Bible. The absurd idea that Jesus is God was invented several years after he was gone, by for example the corrupter Paul. We can clearly see by these examples, and there are many more examples, that Jesus is not God. The whole idea that God should become a man, is anyway just a very illogical and primitive idea. Jesus is not God and all the proofs support that. Thank you, and I'm looking forward to your arguments as to why Jesus is God.


Sources

1. http://www.turntoislam.com......

2. http://www.answering-christianity.com...
Pboy21

Pro

i like thank my opponent for a very interesting evidences in his beliefs. very good
so i will explain my defense that Jesus is God.
now lets begin with his first response as
1) Jesus never said 'I am God'
Now my opponent is right in saying that Jesus never directly quoted " I am Yahweh" but he does make a reference towards his disciples that he is the father in john 14:7 NASB - " If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
very Interesting how Jesus referred to this way with the disciples as he refers to himself as what " The Father". given at any time they haven't seen God face to face but except Jesus as he is God the son.

2) Jesus is the son of man, the Bible says that God is not a son of man
i like how my opponent has a very structured but yet all so simple topics.
Yes Jesus "Yeshua" does refer to himself as The son of Man.
lets begin within John 1:14 " And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory,glory as of the only begotten from the father,full of grace and truth."
John 1:1 "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."
Clearly "Logos" is Referring here to Christ. (cf 1 John 1:1)
Philippians 2:6
" 6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
now the son of man that Jesus reference himself is simply his act of humbling.
now of course i see your zeal but you must understand that God came down born in the likeness man to take away the sins of the world so all can be saved .
while yet as a Muslim you follow traditions because your afraid to offend your God. but the bible says that all fall short from the glory of God.

now when Jesus refers to God as good when the man came and asked that. he was referring praise to Yahweh.
Jesus is worshiped as God, he forgives sins as well heals the sick as God.
now Your God doesn't he have authority to save the sinful.
Christ shows authority as God when viewed with this.
Now saying that Christ is omniscient like Yahweh is clearly seen that he does numerous occasions in the Gospels you see Christ as what Perceiving their thoughts.
what about in the upper room discourse where he told Judas that he was gonna betray him and peter that he would deny him 3 times. or that even in his death on the cross and rising from the dead. clearly Christ is omniscient.
now Christ is Lord over David." the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand,until i make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
while you misuse Christ authority as saying that he sent but don't fully rasp what the scripture is presenting in this case as doing Gods will. John 7:28-29 shows that his authority and origin is from God the father.
while Christ states "i am " the Good shepherd, I am the way
only God is referenced as the way and the good shepherd.

conclusion
Christ is God shares in the same authority as God raising the dead healing the sick and forgiving sins
Allah does not Muhammad does not do either . Jesus and Yahweh do.

9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;"
Debate Round No. 2
Clash

Con

It seems like Pro tries to refute my arguments and at the same time gives his arguments. Anyway, let's see if Pro's arguments is good enough to prove that Jesus is God...

Pro quotes John 14:7 and claims that this passage proves the divinity of Jesus. First of all, since Jesus said 'my father', would not that mean that Jesus cannot be God, because God has no father? Now, Pro claims that Jesus in fact claimed to be the father. That's strange, having in mind that Jesus said 'my father'. Anyway, did Jesus say that he himself is the father? No. This verse is not to be taken litteraly. It is just a metaphor. A metaphor we see several times in the Bible. For example, in Mark 9:37, we read: "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but Him who sent me." This verse doesn't mean that the boy is Jesus himself, or that Jesus is God. It only means that whoever does good deeds for the child, it is the same as doing it for him, and is obeying God and His orders. We can see such a metaphor in Matt. 25:34-40 too. In the same way, when Jesus said 'If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.', its only meant as a metaphor. Basically, who ever has seen me (Jesus), has seen the Father, when he (Phillip)witnessed Jesus miracles which he performed etc.

So who has seen Jesus has seen the father metaphorically, since Jesus does what the father commands him to do, and since Jesus did miracles etc. Furthermore, Jesus said that any man has seen the father who follow God’s commandments:

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)

Now, after Pro says that Jesus was the son of man, he gives three verses from the Bible which has nothing to do with Jesus being the son of man, and also doesn't refute my argument that Jesus cannot be God because God, in contrast to Jesus, is not a son of man. I suppose these verses should prove the divinity of Jesus. If so, they don't. Let's take a look at them. And by the way, those verses which are a little long, I will give only in their place, because of limited space.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father, full of grace and truth." (1:14)

How does this verse prove the divinity of Jesus? It only says that Jesus is the only begotten from the father, and that doesn't mean that he is God.

'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.He was in the beginning with God.all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:1)

This is not what something Jesus said, and thus its not valid. This is something John said, who lived 20-40 years after Jesus was gone. Do you want us to believe that Jesus is God just because of what a man said? You cannot say that Jesus is God just because someone else claimed it. Just like you cannot say that Hitler was good just because someone 20-40 years ago said so. Its basically just absurd. Jesus himself must say that he is God, and he never did.

Philippians 2:6

Again, this is not something Jesus said, but what the author of Philippians himself said. This passage doesn't in any way prove the divinity of Jesus anyway.

Pro said 'Now saying that Christ is omniscient like Yahweh is clearly seen that he does numerous occasions in the Gospels you see Christ as what Perceiving their thoughts.'

Many people today can also perceive others thoughts, and even read your mind/thoughts. They are called telepathics. So what would that make them?

Pro said 'now when Jesus refers to God as good when the man came and asked that. he was referring praise to Yahweh.'

Jesus said that only God (Yahweh) was good. If Jesus was himself God, why did he deny being good, and said that there is no none good but God, which also means that Jesus referred to God as someone else? If he was referring praise to Yahweh, would not that mean that Jesus himself is not God, because he said that you should praise someone else than me? Or are you saying that Jesus himself is Yahweh? If so, you have to prove that first, which is something you yet have not done.

Pro said 'Jesus is worshiped as God, he forgives sins as well heals the sick as God.'

Even if some persons worshiped Jesus, that would make him God. It only means, if Jesus claimed to be God, that they was too unintelligent to believe in him and worship him. However, if Jesus is God because of some people worshiped him, then a lot of other persons is also God. For example, Egyptian pharaohs were considered by their culture to be gods, and people worshiped them. Would that make them gods, just because some people believed that they where gods and worshiped them? Of course not.

Jesus did heal the sick, and we Muslims believe that. However, just because he did that, that doesn't mean he is God. For example, according to the Bible, Elisha healed leprosy and cured the blind. So what does that make him? And what about doctors who heal the sick all the time? You cannot say that someone is God just because he did something which also God does. For example, we humans, like God, punish people who do bad things. Would that make us gods?

Pro said 'what about in the upper room discourse where he told Judas that he was gonna betray him and peter that he would deny him 3 times. or that even in his death on the cross and rising from the dead. clearly Christ is omniscient.'

Pro argues that Jesus is God because he was raised from the dead. Even if Jesus did raise from the dead, that would not make him any more God than it would for the children raised from the death by Elisha, or Lazarus resurrected by the hands of Jesus.

Pro said 'now Christ is Lord over David." the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand,until i make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

Just because Jesus was called 'Lord', that doesn't mean that he is God. There are many people called “lord” in the Bible. Abraham, Esau, Joseph and David were all called “Lord”. If Jesus is God because he was called Lord, then many other persons from the Bible is also gods. Anyway, 'Lord' is only meant as respect to somebody who is great etc. It has been used for thousands of years, all over the world.

Pro said 'John 7:28-29 shows that his authority and origin is from God the father.'

Jesus authority, miracles and everything for that matter, has indeed its origin from God. Muslims believe that too. But that doesn't in any way mean that Jesus is God.

Pro said 'while Christ states "i am " the Good shepherd, I am the way only God is referenced as the way and the good shepherd.'

Show me where God is referenced as the way and the good shepherd. Also, explain to me how Jesus is God just because he was referenced as God was. I bet at least two other persons in the history of mankind was referenced as the way and the good shepherd too. Would that make them God also? For example, God is referenced in the Bible as jealous (Deuteronomy 4:24). Now, is everybody who are referenced as jealous, like a friend of mine from school, gods because that's what God is referenced as also?

At last, I would to like to say a important thing. Even IF Jesus claimed to be God by saying this or that, that would not prove or mean that he really is God, because its simply just a claim. People claim and have claimed a lot of things in the history of mankind. For example, if I now claim to be the brother of Messi, would that mean that I am? No, because claiming something isn't enough. Also, a lot of other persons has claimed divinity in the history of mankind. for example, the first Mesopotamian king, Naram-Sin, claimed divinity. Would that make him God now, just because he CLAIMED to be God? What's the difference between him and Jesus? Well, its one: In contrast to Jesus, Naram-Sin at least came up and clearly said that he was God.
Pboy21

Pro

Pboy21 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Clash

Con

Disappointing...

Pro said something at his round 2. He said: 'Jesus is worshiped as God, he forgives sins as well heals the sick as God.'

I refuted the argument that Jesus is God because he was worshiped and because he healed the sick, but I forgot to refute the argument that Jesus is God because he forgave sins. However, I will do it now.

First of all, If Jesus is God because he forgave sins, then a priest in the Bible is a god also, because he forgave sins too:

And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and [the remnant] shall be the priest’s, as a meat offering. (Lev 5:13)

Secondly, Jesus said:

Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. (Luk 23:34)

If Jesus alone is required for forgiving sin, then why would he ask his Father to forgive sins. And if Jesus is God, how can it be that he ask someone else to forgive the sins of people?

And just because Jesus said he forgave sins, doesn't mean that he is God, because only God can forgive sins. How do you know that Jesus really forgave sins anyway? Just because he said that your sins are forgiven, it doesn't mean that it really is forgiven. If I now say that you will go to heaven, does it mean that I am God because only God can say who will go to heaven or hell? People says, and have said, a lot of things. You cannot say that Jesus is God, just because HE claimed to do something which only God can do. Basically, this argument is just a big failure and does in no way prove that Jesus is God.
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Since this is my last round, I would like to make a summary of this debate.

Summary

Pro has yet failed to answer my arguments and to defend his arguments from my rebuttal of them. Since Pro forfeited his round 3, to do both of this is almost impossible. Anyway, let's see what he will do. However, Pro tried to answer 2 of mine 12 arguments at his round 2, but as everybody can see, he really didn't answer them. And not to talk about refuting them. I would urge you to vote for Con. Thank you, and please don't vote on your bias.

And thank you Pboy21 for this debate.
Pboy21

Pro

Pboy21 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
No comments have been posted on this debate.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
ClashPboy21Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro forfeited in the last rounds