The Instigator
YoungZealous
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Valtin
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Is Jesus the Son of God in a literal sense or in a figuratively way

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/8/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,003 times Debate No: 51901
Debate Rounds (3)
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YoungZealous

Pro

my name is Young Zealous on this page I really love to debate then I was going to consider to be a Muslim one day;I look at what the Quran and the Bible said about Jesus this is not a pLaying matter. this Christ Jesus is written in the Old Testament of who he supposed to be when he comes and when he came. This argument will be very easy based on the previous scriptures.so I will give you references to the Scriptures proverbs chapter 30:4 explains of the only Son of God. There is mini sons of God in the Bible but they aren't literal sons of God they are figurative Sons of God. let me give you an examples of these Figuratively of sons of God. Adam and Eve and David and the angels were referred two sons of God. Say if I created an iPhone and I call it my son because I created that doesn't mean that it's a literal son of mine it is not flesh of my flesh or anything related to me it is only in Sonship of me. so also it is with all creation they are just creation and God is the father on creation. Now let's get down to the Literal son of God. the reason why we have children is to understand that God has an order of his unity. That starts with the Heavenly Father which is Himself . second is the Son of God who is before all creation of John chapter 1 says. Jesus come from the father the heavenly father to be exact. Jesus was a sinless being because the one whoM he came from was sinless. We all know Muslim Christian and the Jews know that God only just Sinless. well Jesus not have no father but only the one from above had no sin so this proof of not having a father should have made people look up to the sky and say who but his dad indirectly the soul should know the Jesus father was the Heavenly Father the Son of the Most High as Matthew chapter 1 verse 23 says he would be the angel Gabriel mentions this. now reflecting upon the nun little sons of Godthey hadsin they also could Sin. now this ability to see it does not come from God the Father because He is holy so someone who can't see in at all prove himself of what he is. let's give credit to the Bible where Jesus says Jesus is you want to see it is a slave to Sin. Jesus call himself the Son of the master which is God the Heavenly Father. Why because Jesus is serious that he does not Sin. he says the slave has no permanent place in that household but the Son does so who the son sets free is free indeed.

so Jesus is supporting what I just said he is the Sinless and Son of God.

John 8;34Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Valtin

Con

I thank YoungZelous for making this debate, I will take that side that Jesus is the figurative Son of God, Pro will be taking the side of that Jesus is indeed literal Son of God(God forbid!).
First, St.John even saw the confusion in the OT as said in John 19:36-37 :
"36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”
OT was confusing even to St.John.

Proverbs 30 is 'The sayings of Agur son of Jakeh—an inspired utterance. This man’s utterance to Ithiel' Proverbs 30 nowhere is related to Jesus, does not name him, Proverbs 30:4 does not describe Jesus.
"...Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?Who has established all the ends of the earth?" I do not think that Jesus wrapped up the waters in a cloak nor established the ends of the Earth nor gathered up the wind, because it does not say that in the Gospels.

In John 1 It is not Jesus speaking, these are the words of John not Jesus, we are talking about Jesus.

Matthew 1:23 :
Part of the sign to King Ahaz was that the child will be named "Immanuel". Since that name means "God with us", it was supposed to show Ahaz that God was on his side. But, despite Matthew's unreasonable claim that Jesus would be named "Immanuel" (Matthew 1:23), Jesus was not named "Immanuel", but rather "Jesus" (as Matthew himself declared at 1:25).

John 8:34 :
Jesus is not sinless, because he did not say it in John 8:34 and was tempted by the devil, Matthew 4:1 :
"1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
Jesus was tempted by the devil, therefore not sinless.

I will refute your arguments that you will post next round God willing, and present Jesus as a figurative Son of God.
Debate Round No. 1
YoungZealous

Pro

Your confusing the heavenly Father with Jesus , Jesus is thr everlasting Father in Matthew 1:23 and in Isaiah. Jesus is from the father which is everlasting so this is why they call Jesus the everlasting father and the Heavenly Father the Heavenly Father.
I had to answer you because you take Jesus as being the one who gave it the heavens together but it was by him who is the Heavenly Father 4 the Son of God as proverbs 30 says.

Note you ignored to give the whole passage of Proverbs 30:4 .... at the end it says, " Who is His (God) Son's name , surely you know ?"Proverbs 30 : 4
Here is the whole thing,

"Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name,( and what is the name of his son?) Surely you know"

God having a Son
http://biblehub.com...

Valtin you should be resourceful by giving them all of the passage. The Muslim world has a problem with reciting resources correctly so that the lie will spread. Jesus said, "You are thr children of your father the devil." Because jesus said, when he speaks a lie he speaks his native language."

Secondly, you said John even had problems understanding this prophecy of Jesus bones not being broken ? Where did he give a clue that he was confused. He was with Jesus many times after his death and before I believe he had no doubt after jesus told them what had to happen. Seems your confusion is thr one that is catchy . The story of the cross is that they roman soldier did not break jesus bones on the cross when they were told to kill the thieves by breaking their knees off for the coming sabbath. They didn't break jesus bones cause the scriptures jesus is so perfect and obedient he gave his life up on the cross before they could break his bones , they didn't cause he was dead . They stabbed his side to see if he was dead and the professional romans said he is gone blood and water from his side came out from his swelling of the heart. Thus full filing jesus didn't break one bone to fulfill psalms. The funny part is that at my job last night the book of psalms someone left open last night and I read this very chapter and reflected on who opened this book to read about this non breaking bone prophecy.

====The Ahaz thing you mentioned is easily debunked. The jews know this was a messianic prophecy not a joke like the muslims make it cause they don't know the previous scriptures . Before you go to read it I will paste it and explain how this Immanuel has nothing to do with Ahaz time or being someone born in his time.
Note THE Lord here isn't the Heavenly Father but Jesus aka Messiah in the old testment. The Lord asks ahaz to ask for a sign so jesus just says for get it I will bless you my self cause yoy don't know what your doing. Lol. So he puts a prophecy to him so that they will know the Lord is coming in to earth but it's by a woman that's the sign in Genesis ans for all ahaz people.

Isaiah 7; 10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11"Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

12But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test."

13Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, ande will call him Immanuel.

Now the creed name of a man is not always used. My brothers name is Marco but his name known by as is Virgil. If someone called jesus Emanuel he would say yes your right as he said to Peter when peter said he was the Son of God the Christ.
Jesus response to him was his answer was from heaven.

So just as my brother has a name Virgil but real name Marco also JESUS public name which is Yeshua aka Jesus AND HIS SECRET NAME describes who he is Emanuel.

Not to exaust the name thing but does anyone say out loud to superman heyyyyyyyyyy... Clark Kent what are you doing here man , aren't you supposed to be at work with Louis lane ? No, they wouldn't csuse superman keeps that name hidden though he is a good hero his identity needs to be kept secret just as Jesus Christ being God's Son aka Emanuel.

So that that's why Jesus want cslled Emanuel in public neither did they call him God being cause that's his secret identity and the enemy will be informed in all he does and jesus had to reveal himself to those who had faith ans who studied the scriptures about him. Jesus didn't just tell people I am God with man... cause if you read yoy would know he is the Son of God.

So it's on your part to know the prophets prophecy of Messiah.

Now what's the next problem we have to scorch?

A sinless example of Jesus subliminally showing them Christ is sinless the story of thr adulterous woman perhaps.

John 8: 6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

So Jesus just showed they are sinners jesus is sinless to help the sinners.

Now another passage about jesus not being a sinner.

John 8: 34Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, (everyone who sins is a slave to sin.) 35Now a (slave) has no permanent place in the family, (but a son belongs to it forever.) 36So if the Son (Jesus) sets you free, you will be free indeed

It is clear jesus is saying he is no sinner like muhammad or Adam. Even the quran says all men is sinners every man has been touched by satan ad a baby except for jesus and Adam. So this quran mentions jesus isn't influenced by satan as a sinner Satan can't touch him. Lol.

Don't believe me then read your own book like I do mine.

Here is Jesus the untouched sinless one.
Jesus pure sinless even in your books

1) Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Hadith 4.506, narrated by Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "When any human being is born, Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead."
Jesus sinless

2) surah 19:19
He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy

Now before you read this hadith loom how muhammad couldn't find sin to blame on jesus but he just says Jesus isn't fit for intercepting for sin but the rest of the prophets he picked a sin out.

Except for jesus lol.

Jesus found blameless all though quran
and hadiths

Judgment day

3) They will go to Abraham who will reply, "I am not fit for this undertaking," and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, "But you"d better go to Moses, a slave whom Allah gave the Torah and to whom He spoke directly" They will go to Moses who will reply, "I am not fit for this undertaking," and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, "You"d better go to Jesus, Allah"s slave and His Apostle and His Word (Be: And it was) and a soul created by Him." They will go to Jesus who will say, "I am not fit for this undertaking, but you"d better go to Muhammad whose sins of the past and the future had been forgiven (by Allah)." So they will come to me and I will ask the permission of my Lord, and I will be permitted (to present myself) before Him. When I see my Lord, I will fall down in (prostration) before Him and He will l
Valtin

Con

First I have to state that Prophets in Islam are sinless, they can make mistakes like normal human beings, but cannot do things which God forbade like drinking wine, or gambling, I will present a decisive rebuttal.

Isaiah and Matthew:
"Your confusing the heavenly Father with Jesus, sus is thr everlasting Father in Matthew 1:23 and in Isaiah. Jesus is from the father which is everlasting so this is why they call Jesus the everlasting father and the Heavenly Father the Heavenly Father."
Matthew 1:23 says that following: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Isaiah 7:14 "14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Seems a Prophecy fullfilled, here is 2 ways I can refute this, before I do, Matthew 1:23 does not say Jesus came from the father, so Pro was confused, nor It says Jesus is everlasting.
1) Jesus was not named Immanuel, as said by matthew himself in 1:25 "25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."
Matthew is contradiciting himself, lets examine Isaiah 7:14.
2)Context of Isaiah 7 is the following(I have made it concise) :
"

10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.” 13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

This is a sign from the Lord to Ahaz, therefore Matthew was mistaken in 1:23, and 'The virgin' was supposed to be a 'young woman', because it also means that according to the footnote of the NIV.
D. Isaiah 7:14 'Or a young woman' [1]
[1]http://www.biblegateway.com...

Proverbs 30:4
I have showed you some of the passage with the context "4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!"
I have told you that Jesus did not do the above which going down from the heaven, gathering the wind,etc, therefore it is not Jesus being described here, it is sayings of Agur the son of Jakeh.(Proverbs 30:1)


John 1:
Pro thinks John was the disciple of Jesus when he isnt because his Gospel was written 90-100 years after Jesus,[1] therefore he is not the disciple, but another man, John in 19:36-37 says that the previous scripture say that Jesus will not be crucified but others say that he will, I extend my argument that, these are the words of John not Jesus.
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...

On the issue of Ahaz, as I explained above, Lord was speaking to Ahaz, and according to the NIV, young woman is better.

Pro talks about superman and stuff, It is hardly understandable, I wish he could make less spelling mistakes and make his speech clear.
I will summarize what he is saying:
Jesus was secretly named Emanuel.
How did he know the above, I do not know, maybe Pro is secretly working with Jesus and knew his real name, his argument is fallacious.

Isaiah 7:14 :
RSV

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el.

Catholic; NJB

The Lord will give you a sign in any case: It is this: the young woman is with child and will give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel

NEB

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: A young woman is with child, and she will bear a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Even the Jews translate it as young woman:
Therefore the L-rd Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and you [or, she] shall call his name Immanuel.

Rabbi Tovia Singer explains this:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org...
"In fact, although Isaiah used the Hebrew word almah only one time in his entire corpus (7:14), the prophet uses this word virgin (betulah) five times throughout the book of Isaiah (23:4; 23:12; 37:22; 47:1; 62:5)."
Matthew was mistaken.

Jesus sinner:
Pro has failed to rebutt my argument on Jesus being tempted, but insted states this:
"So Jesus just showed they are sinners jesus is sinless to help the sinners."
I can help sinners to leave their sins does that mean I am sinless? nope, Pro is invalid.
Jesus sinned according to the BIBLE NOT THE QUR'AN.

Conduct of Pro:
This is a debate on whether Jesus is the son of God figurative or not, but as seen from Pro he insults and makes fun of my Prophet as said in:
"Now before you read this hadith loom how muhammad couldn't find sin to blame on jesus but he just says Jesus isn't fit for intercepting for sin but the rest of the prophets he picked a sin out."
And even made a false statement 'but the rest of prophets he picked a sin out' which is false, In Islam Prophets are sinless in a sense that they do not do what God has forbade, and they fulfill the message of God, to their selected nation(except for Muhammad pbuh), but Prophets make mistakes.

Another thing Pro did is use the Qur'an and Hadith, I do not believe Jesus sinned, but your bible does as he was tempted by the devil, therefore do not go off topic, he used the Qur'an and Hadith to go off topic.

Interpolations in the Bibles, that made people think Jesus is the literal Son of God:

Let us examine some verses of the Bibles, to prove that Jesus being a literal Son of God wrong.

KJV JOHN 3:16
"
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

KJV was made in 1611 [1]
Let us see a modern Bible like NIV:
"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

KJV 1 JOHN 4:9 "9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. "
NIV:
"9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."

These are two examples of how the Bible has been interpolated, the make the blessed Jesus(God forbid) begotten or literal Son of God.

I have gathered a good rebuttal and an argument to show Jesus is not literal son of God, but interpolated as.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 2
YoungZealous

Pro

Jesus sinner
You lied about the prophets when you said this R32;Con: First I have to state that Prophets in Islam are sinless, they can make mistakes like normal human beings, but cannot do things which God forbade like drinking wine, or gambling, I will present a decisive rebuttal.R32;
^Con says the prophets were sinless. Do you even know what sin is ? commit a sin.

)R32;In in fact Con says they are sinless to pull the wool over our eyes to make room for the lies he will bring. R32;Islam comes from a pagan back ground so the sin and Satan thing isn't all the way developed in your belief yet.
Even your hadiths talks about the sins of the prophets in which you said they were sinless in (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 507
Psalm 14:3 / R32;They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even oneR32;So no they weren't sinless God helped them become holy and repented. No man is sinless as the Quran your own book says. Jesus says it also they have said it themselves.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8: #s 335, 379, 407, and 408, [1]. Muhammad knew clearly he was a sinner; thus he m
This was just your opinion. R32;R32;R32;R32;R32;R32;R32;R32;
Pertaining the Isaiah sayings of Messiah R32;Jesus called everlasting Father and God. Second Part of the trinity basically. R32;Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. By the way you just got the prophet Isaiah calling Jesus God so I don't need to spill out the name of Clark Kent cause his identity is to be kept secret with those who are close to him . Jesus Christ is God being the Clark Kent and super mans unity(figuratively speaking )
Now I provided that prophet Isaiah for you whom called Jesus God.R32;dead sea scrolls is found which is the oldest scriptures of the bible. Older than all books we found plus way older than Quern. That
even Isaiah says Messiah is God being then Islam is wrong based on old document older than the Trinitarian name.
So I'm happy to present to you why we call Jesus the son and everlasting Father not Heavenly Father.
By the way we have many Fathers in life many for fathers Jesus is the Father of our faith and salvation ... that's what it means when it calls Jesus in that sense Father.
Pro: OK soak this up God willing this is logic one on one. So apply your self to every writing I say to you. You may become Christian one day.
Pro: You mentioned Jesus didn't claim to be from God in this. You said ,
//To answer you easily, " Seems a Prophecy fulfilled, here is 2 ways I can refute this, before I do, Matthew 1:23 does not say Jesus came from the father, so Pro was confused, nor It says Jesus is everlasting."//R32; Pro: It says Jesus came from God by Jesus words here in John,R32;John 8:23 But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world
Pro: John 3: 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven"the Son of Man.(Son of Man he hints to them because the Christ was seen going to God and God giving him power by the eyes of prophet Daniel. Daniel sees this Messiah and he happened to be a Son of mankind's form going to God. This is why Jesus played with the words by saying Son of Man.)
Pro:John 3: 17 For God did not (send his Son into the world) to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. R32;
Love you Con regardless of you misunderstanding. I'm here to get you straight and right. Ask you shall receive the gospel like the Ethiopia Eunuch and the Apostle Philip. R32;
My Next rebuttal of what you brought up was this ,
Con: "This is a sign from the Lord to Ahaz, therefore Matthew was mistaken in 1:23, and 'The virgin' was supposed to be a 'young woman', because it also means that according to the footnote of the NIV.R32;D. Isaiah 7:14 'Or a young woman."R32;
Pro : Let's begin with the fact that you did not quote the whole thing of the Isaiah prophecy.R32;Even if it only said young woman or if it said virgin doesn't matter in this case because the whole context is what matters. In the context it says that this he'll be called Emmanuel which means (God)with men. So at the end of the day you can be sure that this little child called God with man which we have believed and the Jews know also that this is the Son of God the Christ.
You have a problem with it because Islam is Antichrist (against the Son of God) why do you think in the Bible there will be a bunch of enemies fighting against Jesus when he returns ? Its because Satan has given you his Jesus.
The non son prophet Jesus is not the historical Christ. As the con said that when he debated you earlier in the Islam is the truth debate .R32;
So what do we have here we see that you can't quote something and leave the rest of the contexts out. That's how you mistake that Muhammad is in the Bible by not reading the whole context. We Christians we Jews know that Satan quotes things out of context because he's trying to send the seed of God to the birds as Jesus said in a parable.
Next rebuke you said was
Con:R32;"Proverbs 30:4 R32;I have showed you some of the passage with the context "4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!"R32;I have told you that Jesus did not do the above which going down from the heaven, gathering the wind,etc, therefore it is not Jesus being described here, it is sayings of Agur the son of Jakeh.(Proverbs 30:1)"
Before I begin to refute your interpretation
This verse proverbs 30:4 talks about God the Father and Jesus the Son of God whom is "his son surely you know?"
"What is his name, and what is the name of his son"
Horrible horrible understanding of this verse when it is very plain. You're making the argument that Jesus haven't grabbed all of the winds and thus this whole passage is not mentioning Jesus at all. Note these are two people. Read it. The verse says the (his) is meaning that this is Jehovah God ,the Heavenly Father. It says son meaning that whoever this (his) is has a son Jesus.
Simple things, simple thing. And audience you need to know the only reason why he couldn't get that is because Islam forbids a son of God so therefore the way that he lives in speaks will be son less. I made a rap verse in one of my reps on iTunes and it said, "You not messing with a son like a fake tan."
I'm sorry I know I have already proved this but I love to pick on the smallest parts that seems to be incorrect. You said something about Agur ,here
Con: "I have told you that Jesus did not do the above which going down from the heaven, gathering the wind,etc, therefore it is not Jesus being described here, it is sayings of Agur the son of Jakeh.(Proverbs 30"
Pro: So if I'm not mistaking you just said that this Agur has gathered the winds up with his hands? ^Your logic.
R32;
Con: said I had type errors and misspellings true. This is my first time on this website and I'm using a cell phone for god sake and I'm debating so I don't have all the fonts and the underlining that you have.R32;
Addressing the interpolations of the bible.
Con:R32;Let us examine some verses of the R32;Bibles, to prove that Jesus being a R32;literal Son of God wrong.
KJV JOHN 3: "16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." R32;KJV was made in 1611 [1]R32;Let us see a modern Bible like NIV:R32;"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Pro: catch this Quern says that there is no begotten Son of God which is including and only. Did you notice the translations always mentioned the only Son of God regardless if begotten wasn't or was there.R32; Now the job of translation is to get across the point but you don't get the point of the Bible. It simply says God has an only son as we discussed and proverbs chapter 30.
So begot or none beget it still says only son.
You proved it.
Now that's awesome.
If you don't understand what translation and versions is yet I will explain. What the translation is like it is like saying hello what's up howdy Salam. All these are translations of greetings. All said the same thing in a different way. R32;So also it is when they are trying to betray Jesus being the only Son of God begotten or without the word beget, we get the point he's God's only son of God.
You find a begotten son forbidding in the prophets then you have won this debate but if in scriptures that God has a son then you're incorrect literal or not literal because your God has no Son at at all.R32;R32;And I quote Allah not Jehovah God.
Quran 6:101. He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.
Muhammad was a carnal thinker as those who argued with Jesus. Cause surely God can have a literal or figurative Son he created the family system. Unless your God is a barren God.
My God can do all things Jeremiah 32:17R32;"
Valtin

Con

In Islam Prophets are sinless, please understand that, what is sin?

"1.

an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law." [1]
Therefore anything that God forbade, Prophets do not do that as the Prophets in the Bible did, yes they make a mistake like forgetting as Moses did in:
18:70-73"He said, "Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention." So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidh r tore it open. [Moses] said, "Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing." [Al-Khidh r] said, "Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?" [Moses] said, "Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty."
Clearly an example of a mistake not a sin, Prophets make mistakes but do not sin.

"Islam comes from a pagan back ground so the sin and Satan thing isn't all the way developed in your belief yet."
Clearly insults my religion and does not provide any evidence for what he said above, I urge viewers to focus on this conduct.

Clearly Bukhari 9:93:507 says "Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking' and mention to them the mistakes he had committed, and add, "But you d better go to Noah as he was the first Apostle sent by Allah to the people of the Earth.' They will go to Noah who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention the mistake which he made, and add, 'But you'd better go to Abraham, Khalil Ar-Rahman.' They will go to Abraham who will reply, 'I am not fit for this undertaking,' and mention to them the mistakes he made, and add, " [2]
Again Pro is false.

";So no they weren't sinless God helped them become holy and repented. No man is sinless as the Quran your own book says. Jesus says it also they have said it themselves."
Qur'an is nowhere related to this debate, as I have said in the previous round 'Jesus according to the Bible he sinned' not to the Qur'an nor hadith, Pro has been unable to refute my statement, but state the Qur'an and hadith which is nowhere related.

"Sahih Bukhari Volume 8: #s 335, 379, 407, and 408, [1]. Muhammad knew clearly he was a sinner; thus he m
This was just your opinion."
He does not give a proper reference nor say that Hadith, therefore Pro is false.

Again Pro says that Jesus had a secret name, he clearly knows Jesus secretly...(satire)
He does not know Jesus personally so he is false when saying that Jesus had a secret name, unless he can prove that Jesus has a secret name.

"ead sea scrolls is found which is the oldest scriptures of the bible. Older than all books we found plus way older than Quern. That
even Isaiah says Messiah is God being then Islam is wrong based on old document older than the Trinitarian name."

Notice spelling mistakes viewers, now Pro has not provided evidence for Isaih saying that Messiah is God, even in Jewish law, the Messiah is not going to be God, which has been shown through prophecies of the OT.


Pro never rebutts the arguments I have posted, but agrees that the Bible has been interpolated.

And quotes the Qur'an states that God in 112:3 "he neither begets nor born" God is not like his creation, he does not do an animal act like begetting 112:4 "Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

"Muhammad was a carnal thinker as those who argued with Jesus. Cause surely God can have a literal or figurative Son he created the family system. Unless your God is a barren God."
He says my God is barren for not having kids, here is my God answering you:
19:88-95 "They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.
"

My God can do anything:
24:45 " Allah has created every [living] creature from water. And of them are those that move on their bellies, and of them are those that walk on two legs, and of them are those that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent."

11:107" "Indeed your Lord is the Doer of what He wills"

I have proven that the Bible has been interpolated to make Jesus look like the begotten Son of God, or literal Son of God, Pro structured his rebuttals and arguments strangly, with all these codes,etc, Jesus being not literal, he is just 'only' Son of God, anyways It still removes Jesus being literal Son of God, Pro has not rebutted my argument rather use the Qur'an to prove his point, and the Qur'an says that Jesus is not begotten or a God.

[1]https://www.google.com...
[2]http://sahih-bukhari.com...

Debate Round No. 3
15 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
When is the vote
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
by the way I am always on the go. & I use the voice Text app to write what I say. So this is why also get errors .
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
.I asked you could you put together movie to prove how Qur'an is and accurate it is to history. But you elude to not making an actor act for Prophets because you think prophets are on the same state as God;well in the way that you betrayed it . God made that commandments because they have been worshipping and imagining God to look like those creatures But the prophets a not God the heavenly father says do not make any image of him. You're treating God's law with human law as if the prophets Were God.

it is what I said. You don't have enough to put together a movie but lies. Plus your sources or six hundred years after Jesus and His people and the Bible so therefore no matter what you put together will be questionEd.

overall I was saying that it's OK to make a movie about prophets and about Jesus.but you will not do this because you don't have enough stories record stores about the prophets.

don't put words in my mouth I never said I was superior to you you think that way well that's the lack of your confidence and the lack of your job to provide evidence if your things are true but I provide evidence and you feel inferior By your own lack.

you don't even know what hostile is. when you said that I start to get hostile hey how's the debater is when someone offers somebody some poison during the debate and tell him drink because you're Christian get your mind right. Dr Ahmed Deedat did this and many of you Muslims do this because you would do anything just to win what you feel a little confidence. So you know your role like the Rock said.
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
profits or not God God the heavenly father says do not make any image of me. You're treating God's law with human law as if the prophets Were God.

it is what I said. You don't have enough to put together a movie but lies. Plus your sources or six hundred years after Jesus and His people and the Bible so therefore no matter what you put together will be questionEd.

don't put words in my mouth I never said I was superior to you you think that way well that's the lack of your confidence and the lack of your job to provide evidence if your things are true but I provide evidence and you feel inferior By your own lack.

you don't even know what hostile is. when you said that I start to get hostile hey how's the debater is when someone offers somebody some poison during the debate and tell him drink because you're Christian get your mind right. Dr Ahmed Deedat did this and many of you Muslims do this because you would do anything just to win what you feel a little confidence. So you know your role like the Rock said.
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
@YoungZealous 'or Yet y don't even know the prophets stories or can even tell me the whole story of Jesus.Your trying whitewash who the prophets were? '
I know the story of Jesus in the Bible & Qur'an, so please do not think you are superior to me, you do not even know me, I probably know the Bible better than you so please.

' I mean produce make a movie of Jesus and the prophets except for mohammed from the Quran and you will get the shortest video ever quicker than a vine video. Because its not a reliable source it's only a secondary source.'
I assure you the Qur'an talks about Jesus, and we cannot make movies of Prophets, since we revere them and we think that the best men should not be re-acted.
And then you go on a rant about earthly and heavenly, you have no knowledge, you have started to get hostile when I have showed you that Jesus sinned according to the Bible.

"what doesthe lack of respect have to do with Pointing out plagiarism? "
Moreover if the Quran was simply copying from the Bible, and this was supposedly being done by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), why would he then change some of the stories? It makes no sense that if he has no divine source behind him, to be changing stories and some specific details, which can then be used as an argument against him later on. Rather if he was a false prophet, he would have copied the stories and left them as they are, and then add his own touch to it by adding that he"s now from that line to continue from where the others left off. So why the need to change the stories (an argument the critics bring up) if he was simply plagiarizing? That makes no sense at all. If the Prophet wanted to win followers from the Christians and Jews (as a false prophet), the best and easiest way of doing so would be to conform completely to what is in their scriptures, rather than diverging on some (key) areas.

You can challenge me again on any topic but please show some respect, Qur'an vs Bible.
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
what doesthe lack of respect have to do with Pointing out plagiarism? respect have different scales you can respect somebody by speaking up and helping them out or you can respect someone by Shutting up.in our situation it is speaking up for the long run you will find out that the Quran did copy of the Bible. You may use peaceful package 2 others forget that the Quran based off of the Bible and the Torah but you are not Going to change most of our minds that islam copies off ofus.
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
sorry for the errors my cell phone will not let me scroll up and edit
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
or Yet y don't even know the prophets stories or can even tell me the whole story of Jesus.Your trying whitewash who the prophets were? I mean produce make a movie of Jesus and the prophets except for mohammed from the Quran and you will get the shortest video ever quicker than a vine video. Because its not a reliable source it's only a secondary source.

one thing about sin is that God uses the week things of the Prophets to make them strong but you don't like the weak things because you can't work with the week things. Your kingdom is not the heavenly kingdom it is an earthly kingdom everyone has to look good our kingdom everyone can look bad and God change every one of them.
Posted by Valtin 3 years ago
Valtin
@YoungZealous I said that in Islam Prophets do not sin, please understand that, what is a sin, I have stated that in the last round, Sin is doing anything that God forbade, mistake is when you forget, you make a mistake something is wrong, but you have failed to understand that.
Young Zealous you don't know the meaning of sin? anything against the divine law, meaning if throwing a ball at someone because you are angry or hit someone and God forbade that, then it is a sin.
"But as I said we all are sinners based on the bible Torah, prophets, quran and hadiths ."
No please, Prophets according to the Bible are big time sinners, but in the Qur'an and Hadith nope.
I have refuted Isaiah 7:14 and showed that a lot of translation, and even the Jewish one says that it is a young woman not Virgin will conceive you have ignored Rabbi Singer or any of the translations.
Allah has no begotten son nor literal son of God, but in a figure you can see it is the genius of the Jewish/Hebrew language.
You mention Islam is a copy and paste, which shows that you do not respect my religion nor have proper capacity to be in a civil debate.
Posted by YoungZealous 3 years ago
YoungZealous
I thought I had one last comment

Well here is my last round

I see Con quoted Moses in a passage to support the sin you want to justify that the prophets did.
I'm not here to give a bash to my prophets whom I know but they know they were sinners at God's grace not by their own authority was they saved.

I will say there is unknowingly sins.
Pro said :

"Clearly an example of a mistake not a sin, Prophets make mistakes but do not sin.

Regardless of you knowing it sin is sin.

^Say if you get mad and throw a ball and hit someone and not know it until you see sompebody on the floor crying.
You don't know you sinned by being thr one who threw the ball but you sinned unknowingly cause your didn't know that anger caused you to hit an innocent person.

See sin has no respect to whom it goes to. Like the ball that hits the innocent person. Now the key to solving and confronting sin is to admit not to hide it or justify it. This is confession. If Islam had this there probably wouldn't be as much terror in the muslim belief. I don't know ?

But as I said we all are sinners based on the bible Torah, prophets, quran and hadiths .

As I read the Con's "rebuttal," makes me think ... wait he hasn't rebuttalled me at all he has misunderstood more than debated.

By the way correct me if I'm wrong it seems he is pointing out spelling errors more than proving any rebuttal. One can say he hasn't rebuttalled Jesus as not being literally the son of God but more of my I spelling, right?

I have given you the prophecies of Jewish Scriptures (Isaiah 7: 14 and Matthew 1:23), yet you say Messiah wouldn't be God? Well again Isaiah said it all and we won't repeat that.

My question which is rhetorical to you is if the prophets say there is a Son then why did Muhammad say our God has no Son ?
Well the reason for every cult is a cut copy and paste.
I mean this is Islam, Mormons etc.
The reason Islam has power cause they cut the previous
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