The Instigator
HardRockHallelujah
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
AliAdnan
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is Muhammad a true prophet?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/9/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,089 times Debate No: 77350
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (18)
Votes (1)

 

HardRockHallelujah

Con

Format:
Round 1: Acceptance to debate [no arguments]
Round 2: Opening Statements
Round 3: 1st rebuttals
Round 4: 2nd rebuttals
Round 5: Finish rebuttal, then conclude
AliAdnan

Pro

I accept debate. Thanks to Con for giving me a chance for debating on this topic.
Debate Round No. 1
HardRockHallelujah

Con

The first thing I want to establish is what the Qur'an says about the Bible. If I wasn't debating a Muslim, I wouldn't need to do this, but because I am debating a Muslim, it is interesting to note what the Qur'an says about the Bible:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel" (7:157) [1]

Notice what the verse is saying, it is essentially appealing to the Bible that Muhammad himself had access to during his time to establish his prophet-hood. The fact that the Qur'an appeals to the Bible to prove Muhammad's prophet-hood establishes its authority to judge Muhammad.

With that in mind I am going to use the Bible to put Muhammad's claims to the test and see whether or not he passes the Bible's test of prophet-hood.

Muslims are very fond of claiming "Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all preached the same message: that there is one God, and that we must submit ourselves to the Law of God."

Point 1:
Moses and Jesus both called God Father;

"Do you thus deal with the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is He not your Father, who bought you? Has He not made you and established you?" (Deuteronomy 32:6) [2]

"And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will." (Mark 14:36) [3]

So as can be shown, Moses and Jesus agree that God is the Father of Israel, and the Father of Jesus Christ the Son.

Let's see what Muhammad has to say about God:

"But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created." (5:18) [4]

Muhammad is quite clear that God is not the Father of anyone, especially not the Father of Jesus Christ.

So if Pro wants to argue "well Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all worshiped the same God" how is he going to deal with the fact that Muhammad denied what Moses and Jesus taught about God?

Point 2:
The Old and New Testament frequently talks about God's Son (not simply a son of God, but a particular person ruled out as the unique Son of God). Muhammad denied this fundamental Bible teaching;

"I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." (Psalm 2:7) [5]
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) [6]
"They say: "the most gracious has betaken a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it in the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they attributed a son to the Most Gracious, for it is not consonant with the majesty of the Most Gracious that he should beget a son." (5:88-92) [7]

Muhammad denied the Son as well as the Father, something which the Hebrew prophets and Jesus Christ preached, which leads me to...

Point 3:
Muhammad ends up proving himself to be an Antichrist;

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. " (1 John 2:22) [8]
Muhammad denied the Father and the Son, something which the Apostle John says makes you Antichrist, so if Pro wants to argue Jesus' disciples were Muslims as the Qur'an claims for them, then how does he get around the fact that Muhammad is an Antichrist according to the standards of a disciple of Jesus?

Point 4:
The Qur'an says we can find Muhammad in the Bible;

I already pointed out Surah 7:157 and how it says the Bible has predictions of Muhammad's coming as a prophet. Muslims for centuries now have been desperate to find anything that they think fit Muhammad, but nothing in the Bible talks about Muhammad in a positive sense.
Muslims might try and argue "no wonder, because you have corrupted your own scriptures", which leads me to another question: If Allah wanted to make sure that Christians and Jews would accept Muhammad when he came, why did he allow our scriptures to be corrupted before Muhammad came? Did Allah just decide to fumble the ball the hour before Muhammad came? Was Allah just too incompetent to prevent our scriptures from being corrupted, and allowing the supposed prophecies of Muhammad to be removed? If so, then Allah is not a God worthy of worship. We Christians don't have to argue Old Testament corruption, we just point to the present Old Testament as is and point out prophecies about Jesus, and in fact many Jews have come to faith in our Lord Jesus Christ as their savior, these Jews are known as "Messianic Jews".

Point 5:
Muhammad sanctioned idolatry as part of Islam

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image"any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them." (Exodus 20:4-5)

Muslims claim that the Black Stone came from heaven and the Abraham and his son were the ones who built in as God's temple or place of worship. Do you remember what the verse I just quoted warned against? "Don't make a carved image of anything that is in heaven or on Earth".
So even if I were to buy the story that Abraham built the Black Stone from materials from heaven, God in the Old Testament explicitly condemns such acts as idolatry.

Point 6:
Muhammad couldn't tell the difference between a revelation from God and a revelation from Satan;

The infamous "Satanic verses" story is found all throughout the early Islamic sources.
For those of you unaware of the story, it goes like this:
Muhammad was longing for a revelation to get his tribe, the Quraysh to convert to Islam, and one day he got it, the verse said "Have you thought upon Allat and Al-Uzza, And Manat the third, the other? These are the exalted [cranes] Whose intercession is most sought after." The Pagans finally respected Muhammad for praising their Gods, they bowed down in honor of this revelation and so did Muhammad and his followers. Later, Muhammad comes back, with supposedly information from Gabriel saying "The Devil made me do it".
This is a serious blow to Muhammad's trustworthiness, if Muhammad can't tell the difference between a revelation from God and a revelation from Satan, how are we suppose to trust anything Muhammad says? I personally wouldn't trust this man with my salvation. Which leads me to...

Point 7:
Muhammad is a false prophet according to the Torah

"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die."" (Deuteronomy 18:20)
Muhammad claimed to receive revelations from God, but by his own admission was actually words from Satan.
Muhammad spoke in the name of other Gods "Allat and Al-Uzza, And Manat"
Muhammad did the two things that Deuteronomy 18:20 says makes you a false prophet.
Conclusion: Muhammad is not a true prophet according to Moses.

With all these points in mind, it is plainly obvious from Muhammad's teachings and his claims about the Bible, that he is NOT a true prophet. He fails the test of prophet-hood, miserably.
AliAdnan

Pro

In this round I will represent my topics which leads to conclusion that Muhammad was a prophet. So let's start.

Topic 1. What God says in the Qur'an about previous scriptures (Torah and Bible)

Before quoting I will introduce you with one thing. When Qur'an speaks about Jews and Christians in almost all places it uses words: "The People of the Scripture (Book)" and it is like that because Jews and Christians were given the Revelation of the same God earlier.

[Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."] (1)


In this Qur'an verses we can see that Allah or God says to Muhammad to invite Jews and Christians gathering about the same Word to worship the only God. Let's see what Qur'an says about Mary and Jesus.

[And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.] (2)
[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ]. (3)
[He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."] (4)
[She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.](5)
[And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel] (6)
[ Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."] (7)
[Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.] (8)

It's mentioned in the Qur'an that God sent a Jesus like a son of Mary and the prophet, not a God or a son of God. Also, it's mentioned that Jesus was given Revelation regarding to Bible and that Moses was given with the Torah. Muslims say neither that Torah and Bible is completly wrong nor it's completly correct. Torah and Bible are not authentical as the Moses and Jesus got that. During the time people has fabricated these texts. Regarding that Qur'an says:

[A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they could mislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive [it] not.
O People of the Scripture, why do you disbelieve in the verses of Allah while you witness [to their truth]?
O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]? ] (9)

At the end I will qoute just two verses from the Qur'an:

["And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (the Quran) in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it and trustworthy in highness and a witness over it (the collection of old scriptures)…"] (10)
["And we sent never a prophet before you except that we revealed to him, saying, ‘there is no God but I, so worship Me.’" (11)

That meanings that the Qur'an confirms parts from Scriptures which are not repleced with something human hands have made.

Topic 2. What does Torah say about Prophet Muhammad ?

I will argue about this verse:
[I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.] (12)

Prophet from this verse must be like a Moses, member of brothers of Israelites and speak what God comands to him. That Prophet is a Muhammad for this reasons. Muhammed is like a Moses, they were born and died in a natural way (Jesus was born and raised up miraculously so he doesn't fit in this prophecy). Moses was a member of Israelites and brothers of them are Ishmaelites. (Isaac was grandfather of Israelites and Ishmael grandfather of Ishmaelites). Prophet Muhammed is a member of Ishmaelites lineage (13) so he is a true one. The last one condition was also fulfilled because Muhammed spoke what God commanded him to speak :
“Neither the content of the revelation, nor its form, were of Mohammed’s devising. Both were given by the angel, and Mohammed’s task was only to repeat what he heard.” (14)
Because of that, we can conclude that Prophet was a Muhammed.


Topic 3. What does Bible say about Prophet Muhammad ?

In this topic I will argue the following Bible verse:
[And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever. ] (15)
The word advocate was derived from Greek words ho parakletos.(16) In the next Bible verses Advocate is replaced with the holy spirit. But in the Greek language every word has a possesses gender masculine, feminine or neutral. In this verse is used masculine form of word and that means Advocate is person not a neutral being like a holy spirit. Also Jesus himself said that Advocate will be a person in the John 16:13 (17) In the Bible Jesus is mentioned as a Advocate in the 1 John 2:1 (18) so we can see that Advocate or Prophet would be a person, physical being.

Topic 4. Muhammad in the Qur'an

[There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful.] (19)
[Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah..] (20)
[And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].] (21)

Muhammad is described as a Last Messenger of God, who came after Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus( just main prophets). And He was given Revelation regarding to Qur'an which is Word of God.

Topic 5. Biography of Muhammad and high morals

"Muhammad was born in 570 CE, and over the following sixty years built a thriving spiritual community, laying the foundations of a religion that changed the course of world history. There is more historical data on his life than on that of the founder of any other major faith, and yet his story is little known." (22)
There is no man in the history with amount of biographies and historical data like a Prophet Muhammad. His all life was documented even such details. Muhammad was a illiterate (23) so he couldn't write or read and it leads as to conclusion that he couldn't research previous scripture and that he couldn't copy them. Before Revelation, Muhammad was a known as a Topic 6. What do other say about Muhammad?

Mahatma Gandi said about Muhammad :


EWolfgang Goethe, perhaps the greatest European poet ever, wrote about Prophet Muhammad, . He said:
"He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as Divine Law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment." (27)



This is just a part what I wanted to write, but I was in lack of time, so this is all for now.



(1) http://quran.com...
(2) http://quran.com...
(3) http://quran.com...
(4) http://quran.com...
(5) http://quran.com...
(6) http://quran.com...
(7) http://quran.com...
(8) http://quran.com...
(9) http://quran.com...
(10) http://quran.com...
(11) http://quran.com...
(12) http://biblehub.com...
(13) https://en.wikipedia.org...
(14) World Religions from Ancient History to the Present, by Geoffrey Parrinder, p. 472
(15) https://www.biblegateway.com...
(16) http://biblehub.com...
(17) https://www.biblegateway.com...
(18) https://www.biblegateway.com...
(19) http://quran.com...
(20) http://quran.com...
(21) http://quran.com...
(22) http://www.amazon.com...
(23) http://www.questionsonislam.com...
(24) http://www.al-islam.org...
(25)http://www.al-islam.org...
(26) The Genuine Islam, Singapore, Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936
(27) Noten und Abhandlungen zum Weststlichen Dvan, WA I, 7, 32

Debate Round No. 2
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Rebuttals:

"When Qur'an speaks about Jews and Christians in almost all places it uses words: "The People of the Scripture (Book)" and it is like that because Jews and Christians were given the Revelation of the same God earlier."

My response: So you agree that the Old and New Testament were inspired by God. If so, then you are going to have major problems with Islam. The Old Testament calls God the Father of his people (Isaiah 63:16). In the New Testament, Jesus calls God his Father (Mark 14:36). Muhammad on the other hand said that Allah is a Father to no one, especially not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Surah 5:18). How can the Qur'an be a revelation from the same God of the Bible, when they disagree about who God is?

"That meanings that the Qur'an confirms parts from Scriptures which are not repleced with something human hands have made."

My response: First of all, the verse you quoted never state that the Qur'an came because the Torah and Gospel have been corrupted. Second of all, your translation of Surah 5:48 obscures what the Arabic says. In Surah 5:48, what is translated as "confirming what came before it" in Arabic says "musadiqin leema bayna yadayhee" which literally means "confirming that which is between their hands". So contrary to what Pro tried to argue, the Qur'an actually confirms the scriptures that Jews and Christians had access to during his time. As far as what those scriptures looked like at the time of Muhammad there is no question, they are almost 100% identical to what we have today, we know this because of the manuscript evidence. If the Qur'an is true, then the Bible at the time of Muhammad is still the word of god, but if the Bible is the word of God, then the Qur'an is wrong. Because the Qur'an contradicts the Bible on essential doctrines.

"Prophet from this verse must be like a Moses, member of brothers of Israelites and speak what God comands to him. That Prophet is a Muhammad for this reasons. Muhammed is like a Moses, they were born and died in a natural way (Jesus was born and raised up miraculously so he doesn't fit in this prophecy). Moses was a member of Israelites and brothers of them are Ishmaelites. (Isaac was grandfather of Israelites and Ishmael grandfather of Ishmaelites). Prophet Muhammed is a member of Ishmaelites lineage (13) so he is a true one. The last one condition was also fulfilled because Muhammed spoke what God commanded him to speak :
“Neither the content of the revelation, nor its form, were of Mohammed’s devising. Both were given by the angel, and Mohammed’s task was only to repeat what he heard.” (14)
Because of that, we can conclude that Prophet was a Muhammed.
"

My response: Again, context is key. Secondly, you can't just pick any old criteria that impresses you that supposedly prove Muhammad is like Moses, the criteria is given in the scriptures:
" But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,in all the signs and wonders which the Lord sent him to do in the land of Egypt, before Pharaoh, before all his servants, and in all his land" (Deuteronomy 34:10-11)
Notice what "like Moses means in the context of Deuteronomy, 1) The prophet must speak to God face to face, 2) The prophet must perform miracles.
Muhammmad did not speak with god face to face, he supposedly received his revelations from Angel Gabriel, he did not do miracles, which is written all over the Qur'an, one most notable passage is Surah 28:48 - "Why are not signs sent to him (Muhammad) like those which were sent to Moses."
So the Qur'an itself testifies that Muhammad can't be like Moses, when he didn't do miracles like Moses.
Secondly, I already made clear in my opening statment that "brethren" in Deuteronomy is defined for us as an Israelite:
"you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother." (Deuteronomy 17:15). "Brethren" means Ishmaelite as the Torah explicitly says, not an Ishamelite. Therefore, Muhammad can't be the prophet spoken of here.

"[And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever. ] (15)
The word advocate was derived from Greek words ho parakletos.(16) In the next Bible verses Advocate is replaced with the holy spirit. But in the Greek language every word has a possesses gender masculine, feminine or neutral. In this verse is used masculine form of word and that means Advocate is person not a neutral being like a holy spirit. Also Jesus himself said that Advocate will be a person in the John 16:13 (17) In the Bible Jesus is mentioned as a Advocate in the 1 John 2:1 (18) so we can see that Advocate or Prophet would be a person, physical being."


My response: It's not a rule of grammar that just because a masculine pronoun is in front of a word, that automatically means it's a human. "He" could also refer to God, even though God has no gender. "He" could refer to a ghost (assuming they exist), even though Ghosts have no genders. And besides, even if we pretend that "he" could possibly be reffering to a human being, that's not what's in view in the context of John 14 and 16. John 14, 15, and 16 are all referring to the same person. Jesus in John 14:26 explicitly calls the advocate the Holy Spirit, not a prophet who comes 600 years later. I mean, just read John 14, Jesus says that the advocate will be in the disciples. Was Muhammad in the disciples? Jesus says the disciples already know who the advocate is, the only difference here is now the disciples would indwell inside the disciples. Muhammad didn't know the disciples, so he can't be the advocate, the context makes that very clear.

"In the Bible Jesus is mentioned as a Advocate in the 1 John 2:1 (18) so we can see that Advocate or Prophet would be a person, physical being."

My response: Again, you can't refer to an example where the term "advocate" could have another possible meaning, you have to prove that "advocate" in the context of John's Gospel is referring to a human being. Human beings don't dwell inside human beings, unless of course the disciples used a time machine to go to the future, captured Muhammad, and had him for lunch (lol). Muhammad can't be in all the disciples at the same time, that would prove he is omniscent, an attribute of God alone, John 14:16, John 15, and John 16 are very Trinitarian pasages, so it wouldn't be in your best interest as a Muslim to be quoting from them.

"Muhammad is described as a Last Messenger of God, who came after Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus( just main prophets). And He was given Revelation regarding to Qur'an which is Word of God."

My response: This debate is not about you telling me what you believe, this debate is about proving that Muhammad is a true prophet, so your statement just then is circular reasoning: assuming what you have yet to prove.

"There is no man in the history with amount of biographies and historical data like a Prophet Muhammad. His all life was documented even such details. Muhammad was a illiterate (23) so he couldn't write or read and it leads as to conclusion that he couldn't research previous scripture and that he couldn't copy them."

My response: I fail to see how Muhammad being a well documented man somehow proves that he is a true prophet. Muhammad being illiterate doesn't prove that he couldnt' have been the author of the Qur'an, remember your sources say that he told his followers his "revelations", then they were the ones who wrote it down. So this argument proves nothing. As far as him not being able to copy previous scriptures, it doesn't matter what you try to convince me, all I have to do is look at the stories that Muhammad copied down and see if the stories can be traced back to earlier sources, whether the Bible or outside the Bible.
Few examples:
1.
"So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?" [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive. (19:29-31)
copied from the Arabic Infancy Gospel, an apocryphal Gospel:
"We have found it recorded in the book of Josephus the Chief Priest, who was in the time of Christ (and men say that he was Caiaphas), that this man said that Jesus spake when He was in the cradle, and said to Mary His Mother, "Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word which thou hast borne, according as the angel Gabriel gave thee the good news; and My Father hath sent Me for the salvation of the world."

2. "By My leave, you [Jesus] fashioned the shape of a bird out of clay, breathed into it, and it became, by My leave, a bird" (5:110)
copied from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, yet another apocryphal Gospel:
"Jesus made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it . . . 4. Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, "Be gone." And the sparrows flew off chirping." (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 444)

"EWolfgang Goethe, perhaps the greatest European poet ever, wrote about Prophet Muhammad, . He said:
"He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as Divine Law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment."

My response: Your appeal to authority isn't going to prove Muhammad is a true prophet. I couldn't careless what other people have to say about Muhammad, that's not the point of this debate, the point of this debate is for you to give me positive evidence that your prophet is a true prophet, which you have failed to do so.

With that, I end my 1st rebuttal.
AliAdnan

Pro

This rebuttal I'm going to divide into two parts. In the first part I'll arguing you statements and in the second one I'll arguing your rebuttals. So let's start with the first part and your opening statements:

Your preface and Bible authority
You said: "The fact that the Qur'an appeals to the Bible to prove Muhammad's prophet-hood establishes its authority to judge Muhammad."
When God in the Qur'an talks about Torah and Bible, it talks about the Words that has been revealed to Moses and Jesus. But, todays Torah and Bible do not contain only God's words but in the most cases writings by Bible authors. And Bible had not been written when Jesus was alive but almost 100 years after his life. According to sources: "There is no single "Bible" and many Bibles with varying contents exist"(1) and also: "Various religious traditions have produced different recensions with different selections of texts."(1). Christians themselves agree with that and they even said : "In looking at all these dates, the important thing to remember is that when the Bible was written is not as important as what was written."(2) Logic says that it is all important if we want to be rational.
Because of that and the Quran meanings I rationally conclude that Bible in whole (original God's words and author wiritings) doesn't have an authority to question Prophethood of Muhammad.

Your Point 1.
First, I have to tell to my opponent that what is in the Quran is not Muhammad's words so it is unfounded to say : "Let's see what Muhammad has to say about God." Like you did. You said that Moses and Jesus called God Father and Muslims didn't so it means that it is not the same God. It is wrong opinion because :
1. It was common in the time after Moses until now to Jews to think that they are the 'god nation' (3) or 'children of God' of course not literally, so it was settled thinking when Jesus came. And Jesus only came to Israelites even Bible cited that in Matthew 15:24 (4) So Jesus has to explain them to worship the only one God, the God that released them from Egypt using their vocabulary. But possible it has led some people to literally understand the meaning or 'Father - God, son- God'.
2. Why God in Quran condemn such names for people and God itself? Because it has led people to disaster. Some Jews became arrogant in thinking that they are the only chosen one and other are lower in front of God, and second reason is that people shoud not literally understand such titles.
3. The Father is not the main name in the end. The title/word Father/father was mentioned about 950 times (5) including the word father which means literally father i.e. of family., but the title Lord was mentioned about 7800 times (6). It was in Old and New Testament.
4. I'm bringing up one more evidence which says that 10 to 12 million Arab Christians have been calling their God Allah in their Bibles, hymns... for over nineteen centuries(7). Does that mean they don't worship the same God? No.
5. And maybe the most important thing is message of Jesus, of Muhammad, of Moses. Moses calling in worship one God in Deu 6:4 (8). Jesus in the Mark 12:28-29 (9). Muhammad in the chapter 112 (10).

Your Point 2.
That Psalm verse acc. to NIV is: "
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father." (11). The most Psalm verses( like this) are linked with the King David (12). In the Jewish terminology, term son of God are referring at pious men, Kings of Israel.(13) For ex. is Solomon son of David or "son of God with established kingdom forever" acc to 1 Chronicles 28 (14). Jesus as a King of Israel mentioned in Zech 9:9(15) also has a title son of God. In the new test. also Adam is described as Son of God in the Luke 3:37 (16). Quran didn't deny that Jesus and other Kings were rightous or close to God (Jewish son of God) but God in the Quran didn't go beyond that and call him real Son of God. It would be anthropomorphism(17).

Your Point 3.
I will not spent much words here because this is new Bible verse which came years... after Jesus had gone. And also contains a lot of symbolism. I explained earlier that Father to them(John and others) meant the only God of Israel and Son meant the person very close to God or even Messiah.

Your Point 4.
I have already explained in the Statements about prophecies for arrival a new Prophet. But I've to answer on ignorant accusations for God. Why God let people corrupt previous revelation? Because they were intended only for some nations and for clear time in past. And then is revealed the Quran( for mankind to the End of time) and God said that He will now protect His Words from corrupting in the verse 15:9. (18).

Your Point 5.
Abraham PBUH built that without your 'buying stories'. But it's not the thing now. Few points:
1. Verse you cited condemn worshiping images, the stone is not the image.
2. Muslims don't worship Kabaa or black stone. They worship only God and Kaaba and black stone represent just a direction where they turn praying.
3. Idolatry is the worship of an idol or object as god.(19) Black stone is not god. In churces there are images and statues of Mary, Jesus, Saints.. so first know yourself then accuse others.
4. Because reasons, your claim is failed.

Your Point 6.
I don't need to answer this, because there is nothing like that in history. Just a fiction without rational, founded sources.
Muhammad was known even before Revelation as a the most trustful and honest man, also enemies of him confirm that.(20)

Your Point 7.
Also explained in statements the racional truth about this. Please don't speak the lies. Show evidence. This is debate.

Now the second part with your rebuttals:

You said: "So you agree that the Old and New Testament were inspired by God. If so, then you are going to have major problems with Islam."
Up there is explanation for calling God different names.

You said: "... the Qur'an actually confirms the scriptures that Jews and Christians had access to during his time..."
You didn't show evidence for that translating Arabic text but anyway, you missed the most important part of verse : "..the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed.." God has mentioned corrupting in the verse 2:79.(21)
But it's truth that some people has unadulerated gospel, i.e. Monk Bahira who recognized signs of prophecy on Muhammad when he was child. He could do that because had a Gospel with clear prophecy.(22)

Your saying about Moses and Muhammad.
You said : "any old criteria that impresses you that supposedly prove Muhammad is like Moses, the criteria is given in the scriptures"
You claimed that text from your Bible is any old criteria . I cited your scripture and explain that. You are trying to say that it's contradiction in Bible between verses Deu 18:15 and Deu 34:10-12 . Verse I cited said it will be prophet like Moses, and you cited verse which you explained : there won't. ? Contradiction? Not my problem. You cited verse 28:48 from Quran and wrote Quran itself claims that. It is utter irrational statement because you took just few words from whole verse and didn't read even rest of verse. Moses did speak to God but he didn't saw him, verse 7:143 (23)
We have Israelites and Ishmaelites. I cited verse which talking about Prophet in Deu 18:15, and you cited verse which talking about King in Deu 17:14. So it remains claim which says that Muhammad is among the brothers of Israelites therefore he fulfilled conditions.

Your saying about Advocate
Wait, first you said it's Holy Spirit and then someone among disciples. Because I earlier said that Prophethood doesn't depend on the every single Bible verse and explained why I don't find this useful because it isn't context you said but it is manipulating with texts.

You said: "This debate is not about you telling me what you believe..".
It seems that all the time you are telling me what you are believing so be objective.

"Copying"
We have biographies to see what kind of man in detail he was. If I respect your Book then you respect unchanged Quran. I showed that Muhammad couldn't fabricate. For your both 'example': acc. to some similarites(just a part) you cannot judge Book of 600 pages. One more : show sources at least.

Others
There are people smarter then you and me. If I use correctly the all evidence for my thesis I don't see a problem.

END
I ask you to calm down with so opposing acting (not debating). It's normal to be confident but after all people will discuss who was more convincing.

Sources

    1. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 2. http://www.biblica.com...

    1. 3. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 4. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 5. http://www.blueletterbible.org...

    1. 6. http://www.blueletterbible.org...

    1. 7. Building Bridges by Fouad Accad (Colorado Springs, CO: Navpress), p. 22.

    1. 8. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 9. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 10. http://quran.com...

    1. 11. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 12. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 13. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 14. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 15. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 16. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 17. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 18. http://quran.com...

    1. 19. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 20. http://www.al-islam.org...

    1. 21. http://quran.com...

    1. 22. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 23. http://quran.com...



Debate Round No. 3
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Rebuttal:

"
When God in the Qur'an talks about Torah and Bible, it talks about the Words that has been revealed to Moses and Jesus. But, todays Torah and Bible do not contain only God's words but in the most cases writings by Bible authors."

My response: It is obvious that pro didn't even bother reading what I said in my opening or 1st rebuttal, as I already addressed this objection, the Qur'an says prophecies of Muhammad are in scriptures Christians and Jews had access to at Muhammad's time, it does not say prophecies used to be there, but got removed, it specifically says we can still find these prophecies in the present Bible.

"But, todays Torah and Bible do not contain only God's words but in the most cases writings by Bible authors."

My response: Well obviously, The Bible didn't just fall down from heaven in book form, it had a history, just like the Qur'an didn't just fall down from heaven, it had a history. We do not even claim that the Bible is eternal like Muslims do with the Qur'an, the Bible was written by authors under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so how is this even a relevant point for your case?


"And Bible had not been written when Jesus was alive but almost 100 years after his life."

My response: The first books of the New Testament were written within 20 years of Jesus' death and ascension into heaven. The latest New Testament book, the Book of Revelation was written in the late 90s by the Apostle John while he was in exile. The canon came much later, but as far as the New Testament is concerned, all books were written before the close of the 1st century. So this argument is again irrelevant.

"According to sources: "There is no single "Bible" and many Bibles with varying contents exist" and also: "Various religious traditions have produced different recensions with different selections of texts."

My response: It seems like pro is under the false assumption that if differences exist among the Bibles that this causes a problem for us. He also thinks that we Christians find this "shocking". Well guess what, big deal, differences don't = corruption. Stop trying to act like the Qur'an doesn't have any differences in it either, in fact it does. And I challenge you to debate me on this very topic, i'll just leave it at that.

"Because of that and the Quran meanings I rationally conclude that Bible in whole (original God's words and author wiritings) doesn't have an authority to question Prophethood of Muhammad."

My response: Umm...yes they do, Muhammad appeals to the Bible for his prophethood. If the Bible is good enough to prove Muhammad's prophethood, it is good enough to refute his prophethood, plain and simple.

"First, I have to tell to my opponent that what is in the Quran is not Muhammad's words so it is unfounded to say : "Let's see what Muhammad has to say about God."

My response: Again, you assume that the Qur'an is God's word without even proving that assertion. An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

"Why God in Quran condemn such names for people and God itself? Because it has led people to disaster. Some Jews became arrogant in thinking that they are the only chosen one and other are lower in front of God, and second reason is that people shoud not literally understand such titles."

My response: I really don't get what the point of this response was, are you even aware that God calls himself that Father of his people, so it's not an invention of the Jews to call God Father, this is how all the prophets referred to God, including Moses, including Jesus. Muhammad comes along and says "God is not a Father". Muhammad contradicted what every prophet before him taught about God, including God himself.

"And maybe the most important thing is message of Jesus, of Muhammad, of Moses. Moses calling in worship one God in Deu 6:4 (8). Jesus in the Mark 12:28-29 (9). Muhammad in the chapter 112 (10)."

My response: Teaching that there is only one God doesn't prove Muhammad's prophethood. Again, Jesus called God his Father...Moses called God the Father of his people, Muhammad denied this teaching, period. He didn't just deny it in a sexual sense, he denied it period. Muhammad preached a false God according to Jesus and Moses.


"In the Jewish terminology, term son of God are referring at pious men, Kings of Israel."

My response: I thank you in proving that Islam is false. Do you realize that in the Qur'an Allah accuses Christians and Jews for saying we are the Sons of God, and denies this outright. So if you agree that people were called Sons of God, then the Qur'an is wrong for denying this fundamental doctrine of the prophets.
Secondly, I am aware that "Son of God" can simply be referring to a reighteous man, but when it it used of Jesus, it is clearly in a more exalted sense.

"Quran didn't deny that Jesus and other Kings were rightous or close to God (Jewish son of God) but God in the Quran didn't go beyond that and call him real Son of God. It would be anthropomorphism"

My response: The Qur'an denies calling anyone Son of God period. The Qur'an makes that very clear in Surah 5:18, Jews and Christians are not the Sons of God. Secondly, no Christian has ever believed that Jesus is the Son of God, because God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus, that is utter blasphemy to our God that he has sex. The Bible calls Jesus the Son of God, because he is equal with God, which is how the Jews understood his claims to being the Son of God (John 5:18).

"I have already explained in the Statements about prophecies for arrival a new Prophet."

My response: I already refuted the so called prophecies you tried arguing for Muhammad's prophethood. I guess you don't care, all you care about is taking the Bible out of context to support your prophet.

" But I've to answer on ignorant accusations for God. Why God let people corrupt previous revelation? Because they were intended only for some nations and for clear time in past. And then is revealed the Quran( for mankind to the End of time) and God said that He will now protect His Words from corrupting in the verse 15:9"

My reponse: Again, you are still assuming the Qur'an is God's word, something you have yet to prove. You may believe t is but I don't, so stop assuming that I think the Qur'an is God's word. You just proved my point, your God is incompetent from preventing people from corrupting his scriptures. I don't care what your Qur'an says about the Bible, the evidence refutes your claims that the Bible has been corrupted. I can show you irrefutable proof that our scriptures have been preserved, you on the other hand assume Bible corruption without considering the evidence. And again debate me on this topic, i'll leave it at that.

" don't need to answer this, because there is nothing like that in history. Just a fiction without rational, founded sources.
Muhammad was known even before Revelation as a the most trustful and honest man, also enemies of him confirm that."

My response: This is probably one of the biggest lies Muslims tell about Muhammad. Muslims have a tendency to invent stuff about Muhammad to make him seem like a true prophet, the Qur'an never once even argues Muhammad is trustworthy, in fact in the Qur'an, the disbelievers call Muhammad a liar, a forger, and a mad man:
"
And those who disbelieve say: This is nothing but a lie, which he has forged, and other people have helped him at it." (25:4).
"And they say, `These are tales of the ancients; and he has got them written down and they are read out to him morning and evening.'" (25:5)
"And if they call you a liar, say: My work is for me and your work for you; you are clear of what I do and I am clear of what you do. (10:41)
"And they say: "O you (Muhammad SAW) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man (majnoonun). Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?" (15:6).
So in fact, Muhammad wasn't considered trustworthy, otherwise he wouldn't be accused of being a liar, a forger, or a mad man. You might say, "well those are the enemies of Islam", then you just rejected your own methodology.

"You didn't show evidence for that translating Arabic text but anyway"

My response: I'm not sure if you know Arabic, if you don't ask any Arabic speaker you know, who also knows English to translate "musadeeqin leema bayna yadayhee". I even checked up the meaning of "yadayhee" on an Arabic dictionary and it means "hands", so whatever the Qur'an is saying it is confirming that which is in or hands. Again, if you don't believe me ask any native Arabic speaker who is willing to translate it for you.

"God has mentioned corrupting in the verse 2:79."

My response: Again, the Qur'an doesn't prove Bible corruption, especially when manuscripts refute that lie. And again, Bible preservation and Qur'an preservation is not the topic of this debate, if you want to debate me on these issues, let's do it another time, but stay on topic this debate.

"ou said : "any old criteria that impresses you that supposedly prove Muhammad is like Moses, the criteria is given in the scriptures"
You claimed that text from your Bible is any old criteria . I cited your scripture and explain that. You are trying to say that it's contradiction in Bible between verses Deu 18:15 and Deu 34:10-12. Verse I cited said it will be prophet like Moses, and you cited verse which you explained : there won't. ? Contradiction? Not my problem.


My response: What? You misquoted me, I specifically said that the same Torah you appeal to tells us what it means to be like Moses, and Muhammad didn't even meet one of the criteria given (must speak with God directly and do miracles) both of which Muhammad didn't do.
As far as the advocate, I already said it, but i'll say it again, the text explicitly identifies the advocate as the Holy Spirit in John 14:26. You can't say "my inference from this is it can't mean that" Well that's what it says...

Unfortunately, I am out of room so I will finish my rebuttal during the conclusions.
AliAdnan

Pro

Rebuttal:

"..it specifically says we can still find these prophecies in the present Bible."

My response: I didn't just read. I was thinking about that also. You didn't show proof for 'manuscript evidence", but if it was true( 100% you said), why we have so different kinds and editions of Bible? The God said that Quran as a unchangeable Book is criterion over previous scriptures.(1) Anyway I will back up my side with these two wise Christians who lived during the life of Prophet Muhammad.
1. First is monk Bahira who lived in the town of Bosra. Once time Muhammad as a child and his uncle met this monk there. Bahira foretold that Muhammad was a Prophet announced in the gospels. (2)
2. Waraka ibn Nawfal was a priest. He knew the old Bible texts in Hebrew even. After he heard the first verses revealed to Muhammad he immediately acknowledged his Prophet-hood.(3)


"..the Bible was written by authors under inspiration of the Holy Spirit"

My response: This is maybe the most relevant point in my case because it matters if Book was "written by many authors under inspiration of Holy Spirit" or it was as Quran,just pure God's words without human interaction in its content. Bible authors added owned commentary and could reduce some very important words because there isn't 100% original text as a criterion but when something is worrying Church makes meetings to suggest is it absolute true. We know that people make mistakes.

"The first books of the New Testament were written within 20 years of Jesus' death...all books were written before the close of the 1st century."

My response: 1.The oldest book of NT was compound in 50 CE. (4)
2. The oldest Gospel was compound in 70 CE. (5)
3. The latest book of NT was compound in 200 CE. (6)
4. The latest Gospel was compound in 110 CE. (7)
5. The earliest known fragment is dating from about 150 CE but the most fragments are from the late 2nd, 3rd and 4th century CE. (8)
These are facts and support the thesis of adding or reducing text in Bible.

"differences don't = corruption. Stop trying to act like the Qur'an doesn't have any differences in it either, in fact it does."

My response: Why are there differences? Because many people modify some parts of it. The God cannot be different. I am not acting like that. It's a fact. The same words that has been revealed to Muhammad we have today. (9)

"Muhammad appeals to the Bible for his prophethood."

My response: With new arguments in this text, even more I ascertain that it cannot dispute Prophethood of Muhammad. Your argument is weak. We don't need to find Bible 'good enough', we just conclude is something with the harmony of Divine Books and is it logic.

"... you assume that the Qur'an is God's word without even proving that assertion."

My response: I don't assume that and don't believe blindly. One man can write books and books and books about proving that and you ask that I have to prove that in few sentences. I challange you for new debate about that.. I will mention in a nutshel four things which prove that: Quran's message, Quran's preservation, Quran's miracles and Quran's universality. In the verse 10:38 (10) God challenged mankind to write only one chapter same as one in the Quran. After more than 1400 years, God wins.

"Muhammad contradicted what every prophet before him taught about God, including God himself."

God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name forever, the name you shall call me from generation to generation."
(11)
As we can see, God wants to be called God not a father, as I mentioned in the last round but you didn't answer. But the people are the one who 'invented' that term if we know how the Scriptures were written and transcripted. Also it is important to know history and society of the people who call God father. From Bronze Age through the first centuries of CE in the region of Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria were practiced Ancient Semitic religions (Canaanite religion). It was polytheistic religion and people believe in many gods and goddess but worship only one sometimes. Their gods and goddess had a fathers(12)...And in such place God sent prophets and it couldn't be surprise that people tend to link their monotheistic religion with the society.
Muhammad has never contradicted any prophet who called to believe in One God, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a Old Testament said.

"...Moses called God the Father of his people, Muhammad denied this teaching..Muhammad preached a false God according to Jesus and Moses."

My response: As I said lately, in the main five books of Old Testament only in one place was mentioned word father besides God. And upon that it's illogical conclude something you concluded. With the arguments and verses from Bible and Quran I enclosed last time, I ascertain again that Muhammad preached the same, Only, One, Everlastin, Almighty God, according to Moses and Jesus.

"Do you realize that in the Qur'an Allah accuses Christians and Jews for saying we are the Sons of God"

My response: No need question, of course that I know what is in my Book. And I understand that, opposed to you. After all, you deny to accept the truth that people are that who invented such 'familiar' names for God. And God in the Last Revelation to Muhammad totally accuses people who do that. It's humiliation for God. People in the past started doing that because polytheist background and they want to make God personal. In the polytheist society every house had their god so it was kind to them call god father. Why is it different with Jesus? He was just a important prophet and man who had some miracles thanks to God. Jesus was born without father and God want to test people and people failed calling him humiliating names for Creator of everything. Adam was born or created without father and mother also. Is he son of God, is he part of trinity or quatret? That's why people leave religion and be atheist. Because they judge to all religions upon the Christianity.

"because God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus, that is utter blasphemy to our God that he has sex. "

My response: It's illogical that God had a sex but having child is not? Reasonable people will understand.

I already refuted the so called prophecies you tried arguing for Muhammad's prophethood.

My response: No, you didn't. You didn't show any evidence for your writings and people will decide that.


you on the other hand assume Bible corruption without considering the evidence

My response: I enclosed evidence for that many times. You just don't want to believe.



Sincerely, I don't have much time now but it is also needlesly to answer all his repeated accusations that I answered. Hopefully, one more round is left.

  1. 1. http://quran.com...
  2. 2. https://en.wikipedia.org...
  3. 3. https://en.wikipedia.org...
  4. 4. https://en.wikipedia.org...
  5. 5. Ibid.
  6. 6. Ibid.
  7. 7. Ibid.
  8. 8. Ibid.
  9. 9. http://www.nairaland.com...
  10. 10. http://quran.com...
  11. 11. https://www.biblegateway.com...
  12. 12. https://en.wikipedia.org...



Debate Round No. 4
HardRockHallelujah

Con

Finishing my rebuttal:

Pro said "different versions of the Bible"

My response: Pro is using wrong terminology here. When he says "different versions" he is talking about the different translations. And just in case you try saying "well the Catholics have 73 books, and Protestants have 66" I will respond by saying "different versions" are simply different translations, or some verses which are ommited, but not a Bible that is completely different with other Bibles, this is a common myth among Muslims. And also, Catholics accept the apocrypha as part of the Old Testament, which historically, the Jews didn't accept as canonical, so the Protestant Bible is the correct one historically.

Pro said "Anyway I will back up my side with these two wise Christians who lived during the life of Prophet Muhammad."

My response: Pro mentions the Monk Bahira and Waraqa bin Nawfal and how they confirmed Muhammad's prophet-hood. Few problems: even if we pretend that they did, that doesn't prove Muhammad's prophet-hood, all this proves is that pro likes appealing to authority in an attempt to prove his case. Secondly, the story sounds very convenient for Muhammad, like which Gospel verse did Bahira even quote to demonstrate Muhammad is the last prophet? He didn't, this is enough to refute the Bahira story. Also with Waraqa, giving someone the title "scholar" doesn't prove anything, againn is there a criteria he used to prove Muhammad is definitely a prophet? If so which one?

Pro said "Oldest Gospel is from 70 CE"

My response: I just find it amusing that pro has the guts to give me an Atheist dating of the Gospels. Does pro even know why Atheists date the latest Gospel to 70 CE? It's because they don't believe God has ever inspired any text, including the Qur'an, so why are you even quoting them? And in the Gospel of Mark, which I assume he is talking about has prediction of Jesus about an event that will happen in 70 CE. So tada, they conveniently date it to 70 CE to avoid the conclusion that Jesus predicted the future accurately.

Pro said "latest book in NT written 200 CE"

My response: Baloney, pro offers no source, and again if pro is going to cite Atheist scholars to date the oldest NT book this late, I will cite those same scholars to refute Muhammad and the Qur'an, be consistent.

Pro said "latest Gospel composed 110 CE"

My response: Pro just has no hesitation to cite Atheist scholars when it suits his needs, but he wouldn't dare cite those same scholars who would say bad stuff about the Qur'an.

Pro said "we just conclude is something with the harmony of Divine Books and is it logic."

My response: Funny, your religion is in line with the previous revelations you say, let's see about that:"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22).
Muhammad denied the Father (Surah 5:18) and the Son (Surah 9:30). Muhammad is Antichrist, and don't give me this load of nonsense that the Qur'an doesn't really deny the Father or the Son, in the context of 1 John 2, it is plainly obvious what he is talking about when he means Son, it is in the sense of the Word who is God taking on flesh and becoming incarnate in the person of Christ, that Son is the Son being spoken of here, Muhammad denied this, he is Antichrist, plain and simple, no way around this.

Pro said "God challenged mankind to write only one chapter same as one in the Quran. After more than 1400 years, God wins."

My response: In fact, your own sources say that Satan himself passed the challenge in the story of the Satanic verses, when Muhammad delivered a revelation, not knowing it was from Satan, then came back and said "the Devil tricked me". If Muhammad's "revelations" supposedly could be distinguished from anyone else's revelations like from Satan, how is it that Muhammad couldn't tell the difference between a revelation from God and a revelation from the Devil? If God's revelation is this amazing thing that can't be matched, then Muhammad wouldn't have been fooled into thinking Satan could write a verse like the Qur'an. Therefore, this challenge has been met by Satan ironically, according to your own sources. Secondly, this challenge already has been met by the True Furqan, and I quote:
"One person who speaks Arabic wrote what he calls The True Furqan, in which he maintains the style of the Qur’an in Arabic but with a message that's more Christian than Islamic. Some Muslims heard portions of it read and were convinced that it was the Qur’an! One scholar in Arabic dialects told me that some of the classical Arabic in The True Furqan was much more beautiful than anything he had read in the Qur'an. So I guess the test has been passed....It really comes down to what language sounds best to you, sort of like choosing between McDonalds and Burger King. It's very subjective, don't you think? That's why it's not a good test of the Qur'an's divine nature. ((Strobel, The Case for the Real Jesus [Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI 2007], Challenge #3, Part 2: The Cross-Examination, pp. 129, 131; emphasis mine)
Therefore, this claim that no one can write something like the Qur'an is total nonsense when looked at from an objective standpoint.

Pro said "But the people are the one who 'invented' that term if we know how the Scriptures were written and transcripted."

My response: Is pro really this serious? The prophets of God were the ones who invented this term? So he is admitting that the prophets of God are liars? Okay, I guess he doesn't find this a problem for Islam because if Moses, who called God Father (Deuteronomy 32:6), and was inovating, then Islam isfalse and Muhammad is a false prophet. Because true prophets DO NOT lie when speaking under inspiration, if they do, they are a false prophet, even if they do it only once. So if Moses is a false prophet, Muhammad is a false prophet. But if you want to say Deuteronomy 32:6 is an interpolation, you better bring me your proof, but that isn't this debate, maybe in a later debate we can discuss this.

Pro said "Muhammad has never contradicted any prophet who called to believe in One God, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a Old Testament said."

My response: But he did contradict Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and all the other prophets when he said no one is the Son of Allah and Allah is not a Father to no one, so again, Muhammad's theology contradicts the theology of the prophets that came before him. Agin let me repeat myself, Moses and Jesus calls God Father, Muhammad's God is not a Father to anyone according to his own testimony, so pro, address this contradiction, stop trying to dance around the issue, address this contradiction between Muhammad and Moses + Jesus.

Pro said "It's illogical that God had a sex but having child is not? Reasonable people will understand."

My response: For the last time...God does not have a Son in the sense that he is the biological Father to the Son. Jesus is called God's Son because of his relationship with the Father. It is not blasphemy for God the Father to share his essence with Jesus the Son, if you do not like that, then that is your problem, not mine, I go with what the sciptures teach, not what appeals to my likening.

Pro said "No, you didn't. You didn't show any evidence for your writings and people will decide that."

My response: I am done with playing this game of marry-go-round the evidence. I already responded to Deuteronomy 18 and John 14 being about Muhammad, deny that I did so all you want, I already refuted these claims. It is you who provided no evidence, just a sloppy case of taking the Bible out of context to fit in Muhammad in places where he doesn't exist. Deuteronomy 18:18, the prophet has to be an Israelite, I already demonstrated that from another passage from the same Book of Deuteronomy. John 14, 15, 16, I already proved from John 14:26 that the comforter/advocate/spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit, the text says so explicitly; you can't argue otherwise.

Pro said "I enclosed evidence for that many times. You just don't want to believe."

My response: Your evidence is the Qur'an said so, that doesn't convince me who believes the Qur'an is false.
So in conclusion, I gave several criteria for determining whether or not Muhammad was a true prophet. I looked at what Muhammad said about God, namely that God is not a Father, but this is something Moses, Isaiah, Jesus, and every prophet taught in the Old and New Testament. So if Muhammad confirms Moses and Jesus as true prophets and contradicts their theology, than Muhammad disproves his claim to prophet hood.

So in conclusion, I want to summarize my case. I appealed to Moses and Jesus and showed you how they both in agreement with eachother taught the Father-hood of God. I also showed from the Qur'an in Surah 5:18 that Allah is a Father to no one. Muhammad's theology contradicts the theology of Moses and Jesus, the same prophets he said were Muslims. So even if you are an Atheist, this shoul be clear proof that Muhammad is not a true prophet.
I appealed to the fact that Muhammad allowed idolatry as part of Islam, namely that he took the black stone and treated it like a religious object and appealed to the Book of Exodus to show that God forbids this as idolatry.
I appeled to 1 John 2:22 to demonstrate that Muhammmad is an Antichrist for denying the Father and the Son. Remember, I appealed to the same Book that the Qur'an says have prophecies of Muhammad as a proof for Muhammad's prophet-hood. So what turns out to be evidence for Muhammad's prophet-hood ends up being strong evidence against his prophet-hood.
And by the way, he said that the source he appealed to says Psalm 2:7 is about David, I read his source and it doesn't say that, it says that's the author of the text, not who the text is speaking about, so he misquoted his source.

All the other issues such as Bible and Qur'anic transmission don't substantiate Muhammad's prophet-hood.

I'd like to end by saying Muhammad is not a true prophet.
AliAdnan

Pro

The points we debated and my final words:
a)
Divergences in different kinds of Bible. Many times I argued that Bible suffered various changes during the time. Firstly, everyday language of Jesus was Aramaic. He did know Hebrew and Greek a little but in the most cases he used Aramaic language (1,2). But the fact is that NT was written in Greek (3) so the words of Jesus had to be translated even on the start and plus texts by many authors. When I said different kinds and editions of Bible I didn't mean different translations. It's a known thing that First Counciles had the great role in formulating Christianity. (4) All the preachers who didn't agree with ruler or someone superior were expelled and their teachings called heretical. Besides that, council was caused because people didn't know what is a real truth about Jesus, so superior priests were those who formulate Christianity. They invented term of Trinity. If trinity was so important, why would Bible missed that. There is nothing like that in the Bible. (5)
b) The Monk Bahira and Waraqa are just contribution to other evidence I debated. If you read my arguments, you could see upon what they acknowledged his prophet-hood. Your attempt to slander two wise Christians at that time was without base as I enclosed source for my arguments.
c) In my preceding rebuttal I mentioned the years of composition of NT according to sources. Neither I said they are atheist nor it's matter who are you if you have the facts about something. But anyway you didn't back up your opposed saying with facts.
d) I will repeat that Qur'an acts like criterion over previous scripture. The Gospel of John is the most different amongst the synoptic gospels because it contains many things which are not mentioned in the other three main gospels (6) and also misses the important things from synoptic gospels. For example, John has missed the situation where Jesus prayed to God. According to that and the fact that John wrote it the most independently of all authors of syn. gospels, it is very risky to believe in every word John said. And on the end it's very important to highlight this: If Jesus and his disciples warned people about false prophets it is logical to conclude that there will be the true, right one prophet. In other words, the Bible don't say that there won't be any prophets but just give an instruction how to recognize the true prophet.
e) It's very ignorant to say such a big accusation ( Satan verses) without any evidence or source. It is a fiction. The Quran clearly states that Revelation to Muhammad was only from God. (7)
f) Very artifical argument about Qur'an challenge and the true furqan. The challenge is to produce chapter as the one as in the Qur'an, and it means likeness in language, message, recitation, memorization, without contradictions... but none of these challenges are met. Just cutting and pasting words of the Quran and making something meaningful is actually a form of plagiarism. The True Furqan isn't something new, it was just a attempt to deceive people with idea that it is something like the Qur'an. Also how good was that attempt telling us the arresting of one of the actuator and author Anis Shorrosh (8).
g) I have explained in the preceding round about similarities between Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Prophets didn't lie. How can man who receives Revelation lying about that? Prophets couldn't lie if they are speaking in God's command. If Muhammad was a lier, how can lier has almost 2 billion follower? The God woudn't permit Muhammad to lie about him and Muhammad would be unseccessful if he lied.
h) There is no contradiction in the true preaching of Jesus and especially Moses with Muhammad(explained last time). There is only contradiction to Christians who made the Jesus Son of God. Only the one who want to make a conflict speak about the different God. In 1076, Pope Gregory VII wrote this to a Muslim leader: “We believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way…” (9) And it's true, differences between these three religion are man made. I hope one day we will gather about the same word.
i) I don't have any problem with Jesus. He was amazing man who preached to One God and I will mention Jesus words: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.'(10)

That was my last rebuttal, so I conclude my statements:

I showed founded guideliness which lead to answer that Qur'an cannot accept modified scriptures, and that meaning of Qur'an is the put a seal on Revelation and prophets with the last, awaited Prophet Muhammad.
The most of time we have argued about Bible and after all arguments I have made and sources I have cited, and rebuttals of cons accusations, I think that I defended my opening statements about prophecy of Muhammad in the Bible and Torah.
I didn't use any supernatural situation or magic to prove Muhammad Prophet-hood. I only relied on historical, scientifical evidence, racionality and logic.

Annie Besant, promoter of freedom of thought and women's right, said : "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." (11)

And really, at the end of this debate, I want to challenge my opponent on debate about Qur'an if he willing, and more important I want to call everyone, also con, to read a biography of Muhammad. Even if you don't like him because some prejudices, please read biography from objective side, I hope then you can understand why I decided to defend such a man, such a person, such a father, such a husband, such a model role, such a PROPHET.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.(Muhammad PBUH)(12)



    1. 1. http://www.bbc.com...

    1. 2. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 3. http://bustedhalo.com...

    1. 4. https://en.wikipedia.org...

    1. 5. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 6. https://bible.org...

    1. 7. http://quran.com...

    1. 8. http://www.bloggernews.net...

    1. 9. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com...

    1. 10. https://www.biblegateway.com...

    1. 11. http://www.gainpeace.com...

    1. 12. http://www.islamicity.com...



Debate Round No. 5
18 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
@Kozu - then why did you even bother voting? No one forced you to vote, did I ask you to vote? No I didn't that was your choice and now you complain about this debate?
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
**During my 1st rebuttal I made a typo: instead of me saying ""Brethren" means Ishmaelite as the Torah explicitly says, not an Ishmaelite", I meant to say ""Brethren" means ISRAELITE, not Ishmaelite", so I apologize.
Posted by AliAdnan 1 year ago
AliAdnan
Also from fifth topic some texts are missing, I hope it would not be a problem. We have three rounds more.
Posted by AliAdnan 1 year ago
AliAdnan
I just want to say that some texts from the sixth topic didn't display and I do not know exactly why.
Posted by AliAdnan 1 year ago
AliAdnan
@canis
You're lying so you're not. Haha
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
I am a prophet..Why not..True or not..Who will ever know..Realy...
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
Stateline, simply having a different world view doesn't change whether or not Muhammad is a true prophet. That would be like arguing "being an Atheist means that God doesn't exist, but believing that he does exist means he does exist". The truth is the truth regardless of your worldview.
Posted by Stateline 1 year ago
Stateline
No, by Islam belief Muhammed is a propheT and is the last one but Islam is really Christians sister Islam came from Christianity but in christian point of view no is is not a prophet based on my belief and really this is no debate you belief what you want.
Posted by AliAdnan 1 year ago
AliAdnan
@HardRockHallelujah
Yes, I want to debate and you can check my first debate to see that I didn't forfeit.
Posted by HardRockHallelujah 1 year ago
HardRockHallelujah
@Ali
I made it so that only people with 3 debates completed and are 17+ years old can accept, because two times now I have had people accept my debates, then forfeit, so I want to make sure no one forfeits.
If you want to defend Muhammad's prophet-hood, just let me know.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Kozu 1 year ago
Kozu
HardRockHallelujahAliAdnanTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Theres nothing more painful to vote on than a 5 round, 10k char, religion debate. Try to remember that.