The Instigator
tahir.imanov
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Is Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned in the Bible?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/31/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,241 times Debate No: 45023
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (1)

 

tahir.imanov

Pro

First round is for acceptance. No argument is posted.
Second round is for opening statements.
Third round is for rebuttals.
Forth round is for conclusion.
Con should tell which version of Bible he/she uses, so we can be on the same page. If not, I will use NIV Bible.
Debate will be based on Bible, so beliefs are irrelevant.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con

I gladly accept this debate.

I hope it will be interesting and now over to my opponent.
Debate Round No. 1
tahir.imanov

Pro

I was hoping to have discussion with Christian, use the same method they use for OT, but anyway, I am going to present my argument. Here I am not claiming Bible is word of God, it is 100% true, all prophecies are actually prophecies or Bible can be used as evidence. I am using same method as Christians use for so called prophecies.

  • pbuh means peace be upon him/her.

  • Names in the brackets “[ ]” are added by me, you can check them with Bible.

  • I used NIV, KJV, NASB and Hebrew Bible as source.

I will make you [Abraham] into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” - GEN12:2-3

The angel added, “I will increase your [Hagar's] descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.” - GEN16:10

"As for me, this is my covenant with you [Abraham]: You will be the father of many nations." - GEN17:4

"I will make the son of the slave [Ishmael] into a nation also, because he is your offspring." - GEN21:13

"Lift the boy [Ishmael] up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." - GEN21:18

Ishmael (pbuh) was firstborn of Abraham (pbuh), therefor according DEU21:15-17 He has special rights as firstborn.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren [brethren of Israelites], like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” - DEU18:18

In John1:19-21 Jews asked for Messiah (Christ), Elijah and for Prophet, indicating Jews were waiting for three distinct persons. Messiah was Jesus (pbuh) (obviously), Elijah was John (pbuh) the Baptist (Jesus (pbuh) said, John (pbuh) is Elijah, but John denied it, one of them is liar, according to NT). Therefor Prophet cannot be Jesus (pbuh) or Elijah (pbuh). Brethren of Israelites are Ishmaelites. And prophet like onto Moses (pbuh) can only be Muhammad, because as Moses he was leader, brought new laws, participated in battles. Obviously it cannot refer to Jesus or any other prophet among Israelites, because DEU34:10 says, And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses.

And he [Ishmael] dwelt in the wilderness of Paran”GEN21:21

And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,” - GEN25:13

And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.” - GEN33:2

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” - ISAIAH42:1

Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.” - ISAIAH42:11

The Qedarites (also Kedarites/Cedarenes, Cedar/Kedar/Qedar, and Kingdom of Qedar) were a largely nomadic, ancient Arab and Semitic tribal confederation. Described as "the most organized of the Northern Arabian tribes", at the peak of its power in the 6th century BC it controlled a large region between the Persian Gulf and the Sinai Peninsula. - http://en.wikipedia.org...

And when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) went into Mecca he had 10,000 followers. And Muhammad (pbuh) come for whole world, which includes gentiles.

In Song of Solomon 5:16 it says, His mouth is most sweet; yea, he is ALTOGETHER LOVELY. [Mahammadim] This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

But in Hebrew :

חִכּוֹ, מַמְתַקִּים, וְכֻלּוֹ, מַחֲמַדִּים; זֶה דוֹדִי וְזֶה רֵעִי, בְּנוֹת יְרוּשָׁלִָם

- “chk·u mmthqim u·kl·u mchmdim ze dud·i u·ze ro·i bnuth irushlm. Here “im” is not plural in number but of respect. The word itself is translated in many different ways, as altogether lovely, coveted ones, wholly desirable, praised one(s).

The correct translation is - His mouth is most sweet; he is Muhammad. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

John16:12-15 - I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Muhammad (pbuh) was also known as Al-Amin, which means The Trustworthy, and this title was given to him before he received revelation, by people of Mecca. Christians would suggest that here Jesus talks about Holy Spirit, but Holy Spirit was there already with Jesus (pbuh), with Mary (pbuh), with Apostles. How can someone come, if he is already there.



Thank you for reading.

iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con

Firstly, I would like to thank my opponent for an interesting opening round argument. Also, I apologize that I am not a Christian as desired by my opponent, but I took this debate based on the first round statement that this is a debate on the bible and "beliefs are irrelevant".

As an English speaker, I will use the New International Version (NIV) of the Bible unless otherwise stated. I also realize the King James Version (KJV) is attributed to be more correct in terms of translation into English, but as this deals with the prophet Muhammad in the bible the relevant ares of translation (i.e. names) should not be affected.(1,2)

The context of this debate is confusing in one aspect and that is one of the points I want to address in this round. Muhammad is referred to as the prophet in Islam, as such one could contrive to say that Muhammad is mentioned in the bible with respect to the mention of the phrase "the prophet". However, the use of the term prophet in the bible can pertain to multiple people that are found in the old and new testament i.e. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David etc. (3) So the mention of the phrase "the prophet" could refer to anyone if they are not mentioned by name, but in general in the Bible the term prophet would refer to Moses. (4,5) I think as such that the prophet mentioned in the Bible would be a biblical character and not a character that is not featured in the bible but in a book written 700 years after the new testament.

Another way to consider who the prophet mentioned in the bible is would be look at it statistically and see who is mentioned as a prophet in the bible and how many times they are mentioned. Then it should probably holds that the person referred to as the prophet would be the person most mentioned.In the NIV, Moses is mentioned times 803 times, Jesus is mentioned 1310 times, Abraham is mentioned 235 times and Muhammad is mentioned 0 times.(6) Statistics calculated using a simple keyword search at biblegateway.com. With respect to the KJV, Moses is mentioned times 783 times, Jesus is mentioned 942 times, Abraham is mentioned 230 times and Muhammad is mentioned 0 times.(7) As such statistically, the prophet mentioned in the bible is probably Moses. Even though Jesus is mentioned more times, Jesus is also mentioned as the Messiah, so it is unlikely that "the prophet" refers to Jesus.

To expand on these statistics further, if we consider a similar analysis of the Koran we see that, Jesus is mentioned 69 times Muhammad is mentioned 1044 time, Moses 222 times and Abraham 132 times.(8) Statistics calculated using a simple keyword search at quran.com. So the prophet mentioned in the Koran as ascertained by Islam is probably Muhammad.

I think these arguments presented here are evidence enough that the prophet mentioned in the bible is not Muhammad but rather another biblical prophet. This holds even more when we consider that Muhammad is not mentioned by name at any place in the bible.

Over to my opponent.

(1) http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com...
(2) http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...
(3) http://www.jewfaq.org...
(4) http://www.jewfaq.org...
(5) https://bible.org...
(6) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(7) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(8) http://quran.com...
Debate Round No. 2
tahir.imanov

Pro

I thank iamanatheistandthisiswhy for nice (statistical) argument. Firstly, I would like to correct my opponent on statistics of names in Quran, that he presented inaccurate statistics. Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name only 5 times (4 times as Muhammad, once as Ahmed), Jesus and Adam (pbut) each were mentioned 25 times by name. You can check Moses and Abraham (pbut).
I am not sure how accurate the statistics of names in Bible, that my opponent presented, but it is irrelevant. Because we are talking about prophecies about people, which will come in future, and they are not mentioned by name, mostly.
But in my argument I showed that Muhammad (pbuh) was mentioned by name, also if you read Song of Solomon (or Song of Songs) you will see that physical appearance of Muhammad is also described there.
Songs5:10 says He is chief amongst 10.000 (I explained it in previous round), 5:11-15 describes his physical appearance, and in 5:16 his name is mentioned. But in prophecies about Moses, Jesus, John (The Baptist) they never mentioned by name.
And if you read Haggai2:7, in NIV it is translated as, "I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord Almighty." The word which is translated as what is desired is Mahammad (or Muhammad). Ben Yehuda's Hebrew-English dictionary defines Muhammad as praised one, which is meaning of name of last prophet of Islam. So correct translation is - I will shake all nations, and the Muhammad of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,' says the LORD Almighty.

There is nothing objectionable in my opponents argument (except last point and statistics from Quran). But they do not deal with the point. So there is nothing answer.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con

My opponent has claimed in his opening statement that the prophet referred too in the old and new testament is Muhammad and has cited specific verses which he claims describe Muhammad. I disagree with this as stated in my second round argument that the prophet referred to is probably a biblical prophet and I wish to show this using the verses cited by my opponent why this is probably the case.

Many of the verses cited are not of relevance to Muhammad, as they mention other prophets such as Abraham or Moses etc so I will only deal with the relevant verses and if my opponent feels I need to clarify any further verses could he please point these out in his final round and I will address them.

In Deutoronomy 18:18 the verse discusses that God will create another prophet like Moses, which my opponent claims to be Muhammad. "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him."(1) This prophet could be Elijah who is accredited with doing acts similar to Moses such as predicting famine (1 Kings 17:1-3), raising the dead (1 Kings 17: 21-23) and ascending to Heaven (2 Kings 2: 10 -12) in spectacular fashion.(2-4)

In John1:19-21 my opponent says that the Jews were waiting for three distinct people. This is not true as we can see using the NIV that it is merely the elders asking John who he was. "Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, “I am not the Messiah.” They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”He said, “I am not.”“Are you the Prophet?”He answered, “No.”"(5) In no way does this mean that the Jews are waiting for three different people. As such this argument fails. Also is we assume my opponent is correct, if we read a few verses later in John 1: 23, then John can be said to be admitting he is in fact the prophet Isiah and not Elijah as Jesus said "John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”".(5) Whichever argument we use here, we can see that my opponents argument fails.

My opponent uses verses to show that the prophet is Muhammad as the Old Testament refers to the prophet leading gentiles in Isiah 42: 1"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations."(6) I am sure most Christians would say that the person who bought the message to the Gentiles was Jesus and not Muhammad as my opponent asserts. This is easily seen in Matthew 15 where Jesus reprimands the pharisees and preaches to the gentiles.(7) Additionally, again this could be any biblical prophet that existed after Isiah such as Jeremiah, Malachi, Haggi, Ezekiel etc.

My opponents use of Song of Songs 5: 16 is a surprise to me as this reference is a very far stretch to get to Muhammad. I disagree that this refers to Muhammad as it refers to multiple other aspects of the person only mentioned as He and not Muhammad. Let me name a few a) He is from Lebanon Song of Songs 5 : 15 "His legs are pillars of marble set on bases of pure gold. His appearance is like Lebanon, choice as its cedars." b) he has a gold head Song of Song 5: 11 "His head is purest gold; his hair is wavy and black as a raven." and c) he has a body of Ivory "His arms are rods of gold set with topaz. His body is like polished ivory decorated with lapis lazuli."(8) I think it is pretty clear this is a poem with the use of multiple metaphors, however if we are going to take some metaphors literally to get to Muhammad then we also have to take others literally as well.I should also point out that to get to Muhammad we have to use my opponents translation, and not an accredited translation such as the NIV or KJV.

Lastly my opponent refers to John 16 :12-15 and says that Jesus is referring to Muhammad who will come next but this is a misunderstanding as Jesus was in fact talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit. "“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”"(9) This is in fact corroborated in Acts 2: 1-4 where the Holy Spirit comes upon a group of people as predicted by Jesus.(10) My opponent claims this cannot be the case that this is the Holy Spirit as it was already with Jesus, however again my opponent misunderstands the concept of the trinity as Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are separate but one. As such it is impossible for Jesus to have the Holy Spirit. Additionally, Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit to create Jesus yet this does not mean the Holy Spirit stayed with Mary it was merely delivering a gift.

I believe in this round I have successfully refuted my opponents claims that the Bible is referring to Muhammad. In my last round I will address the concerns my opponent has raised with my Round 2 opening argument adhering to the debate format.

Back over to my opponent for closing remarks.

(1) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(2) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(3) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(4) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(5) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(6) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(7) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(8) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(9) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(10) http://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 3
tahir.imanov

Pro

DEU18:18 cannot be about Elijah because of DEU34:10. And it is duty of Con also cite the verses, where Moses raised the dead, predicted famine, and ascended into heaven.
Jews were waiting for three distinct persons - Elijah, Messiah, and the Prophet. (you can do research about this issue)
Isiah42:1 cannot be about Jesus, because he himself said don't go to gentiles and he came only for lost sheep of Israel. What others say about him is irrelevant. But Muhammad and Koran said that he (Muhammad) came for all worlds and for all humanity.
I did not explain physical appearance in Song of Songs for a reason. (gold in 5:11 is not literally gold head).
About Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit was not just with Mary and Jesus, He was also with apostles, if he already was with them, then how can Jesus send him to them, if he already was with them.

On general scale I agree with Con, for me if so called prophecy is not literal, I always will be sceptic about its interpretation. The reason I wanted to debate this issue, because I would like to use their method of interpretation towards these prophecies. I would not have same problem with Jew, because Jews have a scope of interpretation and they would know better (they had to know, at the end, it is their book).

Thank you for reading.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy

Con

Thanks to my opponent for an interesting debate and no on to my final rebuttals and concluding remarks.

First, I would like to point out that my opponent has agreed twice with my analysis that the Prophet referred to is not Muhammad. In Round 4 he has said "On general scale I agree with Con, for me if so called prophecy is not literal, I always will be sceptic about its interpretation."and in Round 3 he has said "There is nothing objectionable in my opponents argument (except last point and statistics from Quran)." With this in mind let me address the points raised by my opponent.

Firstly I would like to point out that I said Elijah was Similar to Moses, and not the same as Moses. This means Elijah did similar amazing things to Moses, but it does not mean that the amazing things have to be the same. For this reason I do not have to show that Moses raised the dead, predicted a drought and went to heaven in a spectacular fashion. Instead I can show that Moses parted an ocean in Exodus 14, made a stone give water in Exodus 17 and predicted the plagues in Exodus 7 to 11.(1-2)

Further if we are to say that the prophet cannot come from Israel according to Deutornomy 34:10 then no prophet in the Bible who lived after Moses and comes from Israel can be considered a prophet. This then begs the question why is Elijah considered a prophet in the Koran and the Bible? In fact this verse refers to a prophet that was the same as Moses in that they spoke to God face to face, and as I have pointed out Elijah was similar to Moses but not the same. "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,"(3)

Regarding the statistics, I was simply using a search function at the respective sites as mentioned in my previous round. If the values are not correct I apologize. However, this does not detract from the fact that the ratios are still relevant i.e.Muhammad was never mentioned in the Bible, but was mentioned in the Koran. My opponent then says and I agree that no names are mentioned as it is a prophecy. For this very same reason I can assert that the prophet mentioned in the prophecies is not Muhammad but any other prophet like Isiah.

My opponent then says that Muhammad was mentioned by name in Song of Songs but as I have shown in the previous round, this is not true as it requires a very loose interpretation of the scriptures. But I think what is more important is my opponent who says about these verses. In round 2 my opponent says "But in my argument I showed that Muhammad (pbuh) was mentioned by name, also if you read Song of Solomon (or Song of Songs) you will see that physical appearance of Muhammad is also described there." however then in round 4 he says he did not say anything about Muhammads physical appearance "I did not explain physical appearance in Song of Songs for a reason. (gold in 5:11 is not literally gold head). ". Is this a concession that this point is not valid by my opponent, I will let the voters decide.

My opponent also contends that the prophet mentioned cannot be Jesus, as Jesus only came for the lost sheep of Israel. This is complete fabrication of what the message of Jesus was about, as Jesus taught to everyone as I pointed out in Round 3. To clarify again let me give you Jesus words in Mark 12: 31"The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”"(4)

Additionally, my opponent seems to not understand that the Holy Spirit was not with Jesus or Mary or the Apostles. I will post my response again so that it can be re-read by my opponent. John 16 :12-15 is not referring to Muhammad who will come next but Jesus was in fact talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit. "“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”"(5) This is in fact corroborated in Acts 2: 1-4 where the Holy Spirit comes upon a group of people as predicted by Jesus.(6) My opponent claims this cannot be the case that this is the Holy Spirit as it was already with Jesus, however again my opponent misunderstands the concept of the trinity as Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are separate but one. As such it is impossible for Jesus to have the Holy Spirit. Additionally, Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit to create Jesus yet this does not mean the Holy Spirit stayed with Mary it was merely delivering a gift.


My opponent also reverts to special pleading in his concluding remarks by saying that only this debate and his arguments can be understood by a Jew. Surely my opponent is jesting by saying that I cannot understand the bible and texts, simply because no matter how much time I put into studying the Old Testament I am not a Jew.

I believe that my opponent has failed in his proof that the prophet referred to in the old testament is Muhammad as it is far more likely that the prophet is another Biblical prophet or Jesus as I have shown in this closing and other rounds.

Again thanks to my opponent, and over to the voters.

(1) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(2) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(3) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(4) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(5) http://www.biblegateway.com...
(6) http://www.biblegateway.com...
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 3 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Ishmael does not equal Muhammad. Its a jump in logic.

By the same logic, I am mentioned in the bible as all humans come from Adam?
Posted by B0NEDUDE 3 years ago
B0NEDUDE
How did Op miss the point of Genesis 17:20??? Proof that Muhammad was the "prophecy" of Islam,

"Ishmael is recognized as an important prophet and patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that Ishmael was the firstborn of Abraham, born to him from his second wife Hagar. Ishmael is recognized by Muslims as the ancestor of several prominent Arab tribes and being the forefather of Muhammad.[32] Muslims also believe that Muhammad was the descendant of Ishmael that would establish a great nation, as promised by God in the Old Testament.[33]

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of 12 rulers, and I will make them into a great nation.

"Genesis 17:20"
Posted by tahir.imanov 3 years ago
tahir.imanov
I did not say only Jew can understand OT, what I said is, Jews should know better, and they have a scope of interpretation of their holy book, so when debating with Jew you should follow that scope.

*This comment is not a part of debate.
Posted by tahir.imanov 3 years ago
tahir.imanov
@Theunknown, may be you missed the point. I am not one of prophecy maniacs, who reads verse, then says it fortold this or that. I will use same method as christians themselves uses for prophecies in OT for Jesus (pbuh). My point is if you tell Jesus mentioned in OT, using same method we come to conclusion Muhammad (pbuh) is also mentioned in OT and NT. By the way Jesus (pbuh) was never mentioned in OT by name, but Muhammad (pbuh) was.
Posted by B0NEDUDE 3 years ago
B0NEDUDE
Muhammed was descendant of Ishmael, so yes he is.
Posted by Theunkown 3 years ago
Theunkown
is this even possible?
both bibles were before prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was born
the latest bible was written in sometime in the 1st century
the prophets born in the 7th century
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Romanii 3 years ago
Romanii
tahir.imanoviamanatheistandthisiswhyTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con successfully showed that the verses presented by Pro aren't necessarily talking about Muhammad, and that they bear much stronger connections to other OT Prophets or possibly even Jesus himself.