The Instigator
AskMeAboutIslam
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MouthWash
Con (against)
Winning
6 Points

Is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)a messenger of GOD

Do you like this debate?NoYes-1
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
MouthWash
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/22/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,930 times Debate No: 23751
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (2)
Votes (2)

 

AskMeAboutIslam

Pro

There r only two possibilities either Muhammad (pbuh) claim was true or he was telling a lie
Why would someone lie about getting revelation from God
MouthWash

Con

My opponent has not yet provided evidence of his claim. There are indeed many reasons to lie about a revelation from God, like fame, worship, money, etc.
Debate Round No. 1
AskMeAboutIslam

Pro

As discussed earlier, Muhammad made the claim, ˜I am Gods Messenger. Either he was true in his claim or he was not. We will begin by the assuming the latter and investigate all possibilities raised by skeptics of past and present, discussing some of their misconceptions. Only if all other possibilities are exhausted can one reasonably claim that the only possibility left is that he was true in what he claimed. We will also look at what the Quran has to say on the matter.

Was He a Liar?
Is it possible for a liar to claim for a period of 23 years with unwavering certitude that he is a prophet like Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, that there will be no more prophets after him, and that the scripture he has been sent with will remain his lasting miracle till the end of time?

A liar will falter sometimes, perhaps with a friend, maybe with his family members, somewhere he will make a mistake. His message, delivered over two decades, will contradict itself sometimes. But what we see in reality is that the scripture he brought declares freedom from internal inconsistencies, his message remained consistent throughout his mission, and even in the midst of a battle, he proclaimed his prophethood

His life story is preserved book open for everyone to read. Before Islam, he was well-known to his own people to be trustworthy and reliable, an honest man, a person of integrity, who did not lie. It was due to this reason they named him �€œAl-Ameen�€�, or �€œThe Trustworthy�€� He was strongly opposed to lying and warned against it. Is it possible for him to tell a consistent lie for 23 years, a lie so monstrous that it would make him a social outcast, when he was never known to have lied even once about anything? It�€™s simply against the psychology of liars.

If one was to ask why a person would make claim to prophethood and lie, their answer might be one of two:

1) Fame, Glory, wealth and status.

2) Moral progress.

If we were to say that the Muhammad claimed prophethood for fame glory and status, we would see that what actually occurred was the exact opposite. Muhammad, before his claim to Prophethood, enjoyed a high status in all aspects�€� He was of the most noble of tribes, of the most noble of families, and was known for his truthfulness. After his claim, he became a social outcast. For 13 years in Makkah, he and his followers faced excruciating torture, which led to the death of some of his followers, ridicule, sanctioning, and excommunication from society.

There were many other ways which a person could gain fame in the society of that time, mainly from valor, and poetry. If Muhammad had made the claim that he himself authored the Quran, as will be explained later, that would have been enough for his name and poetry to be engraved in gold and hung inside the Ka�€™bah for eternity, people from all over the world hallowing him. Rather, he proclaimed that he was not the author of his revelationa, and that it was from the One high above, causing him to be ridiculed in his time until ours.

The Prophet was the husband of a wealthy tradeswoman, and he enjoyed the comforts of life available t him at his time. But after his claim of prophethood, he became of the poorest of people. Days passed without stove fire being lit in his house, and at one time, hunger drove him to the mosque in hope of some provision. The leaders of Makkah in his time offered him the riches of the world in order for him to leave his message. However he refused, if he was liar he would hav accepted. But when his uncle asked why hed didn't he gave a beautiful answer and said even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left iq ould never give up this message. Does this sound like a liar.

If one were to say that Muhammad lied and claimed prophethood in order to bring moral and religious reform to a society ridden with ills, this argument is futile in itself, for how can one bring moral reform through a lie. If Muhammad was so keen to uphold and preach upright morals and worship of One God, then could he have lied himself in doing so? If we say that this is not possible, the only answer is that he was speaking the truth.
MouthWash

Con

First, I feel that I should point out that my opponent has provided zero evidence for any of his claims. They should be dismissed until he does.

"If one were to say that Muhammad lied and claimed prophethood in order to bring moral and religious reform to a society ridden with ills, this argument is futile in itself, for how can one bring moral reform through a lie. If Muhammad was so keen to uphold and preach upright morals and worship of One God, then could he have lied himself in doing so? If we say that this is not possible, the only answer is that he was speaking the truth."


You have not demonstrated why this would be true. Giving the Arabs "one God" would have certainly helped. I see no reason to believe why this was not so.

Pro also ignores the possibility that Muhammad truly believed what he was saying. He has not provided any argument against why this would be so.
Debate Round No. 2
AskMeAboutIslam

Pro

"Pro also ignores the possibility that Muhammad truly believed what he was saying. He has not provided any argument against why this would be so."

How could someone like Muhammad (pbuh) truly believe what he was syaing without being convinced they are getting revlation from god
MouthWash

Con

"How could someone like Muhammad (pbuh) truly believe what he was syaing without being convinced they are getting revlation from god"

What are you talking about? Give evidence for your arguments. I'm not sure what this even means at all.

I also pointed out that you did not source or otherwise provide evidence for any of your claims in round two. You ignored me.

Debate Round No. 3
AskMeAboutIslam

Pro

Iv'e already explaioned how Muhammad could not have been a liar, because he did not have the motives of a liar(fame, glory, money) as I'v explained in round 2.

The only other argumnet that u have is that Muhammad(pbuh) was either deluded, possessed or mentally ill

Someone who has dealt with mentally ill knows people can be identified by their symptoms. Muhammad displayed no symptom of insanity at any time in his life No friend, wife, or family member suspected or abandoned him due to insanity. As for the effects of revelations on the Prophet, such as perspiration and the likes, it was due to the intensity of the Message which he had to bear and not due to any epileptic fit or instance of insanity...

Quite to the contrary, Muhammad preached for a long time and brought a Law unknown in its completeness and sophistication to ancient Arabs. If the prophet was insane, it would have been obvious to those around him at one point in a period of twenty three years. When in history did an insane man preach his message to worship One God for ten years, three of which he and his followers spent in exile, and eventually became the ruler of his lands? Which insane man has ever won the hearts and minds of people who met him and earned the respect of his adversaries?

More so, his closest companions, Abu Bakr and Umar were recognized for their abilities, nobility, skills, and finesse. They were willing to sacrifice anything for the religion he brought. On one occasion, Abu Bakr, brought all his material possessions to Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, and when asked what he left for his family, responded, �€˜I left for them God and His Messenger!�€™

Abu Bakr, a merchant by profession, after being elected the ruler of all of Arabs after Muhammad, spent a mere two dirham on himself and his family!

Umar became the ruler of Arabia after Abu Bakr and conquered Syria, Egypt, and subdued the Persian and Roman Empires. He was a man known for his scrupulous justice. How can someone suggest these people were following a mentally deranged individual?

Micheal H Hart who is also a prominent hsitorian along with 5 other contemnporay carried out categorical studies on who were the 100 most influential people in history. Guess who he put first, no other than Muhammad(pbuh) Micheal Hart was not a muslim so it could not have been biased. this is what he wrote
My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world�€™s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

does this sound like muhammad (pbuh) was deluded or mentally ill or possessed.

and opponent instead of making vague statements you need to debunk my arguments in round 2 first with evidence and then construct your own showing that Muhammad was a liar or deluded. If u cannot the only other option is that Muhammad (pbuh) was telling the truth that he indeed wa a messenger sent by god
MouthWash

Con

"When in history did an insane man preach his message to worship One God for ten years, three of which he and his followers spent in exile, and eventually became the ruler of his lands?"

My opponent is incorrect about his definition of insanity. "A person with delusional disorder may be high functioning in daily life as this disorder bears no relation to one's IQ, and may not exhibit odd or bizarre behavior aside from these delusion. According to German psychiatrist Emil Kraepelin, patients with Delusional Disorder remain coherent, sensible and reasonable." [http://en.wikipedia.org...]

"and opponent instead of making vague statements you need to debunk my arguments in round 2 first with evidence and then construct your own showing that Muhammad was a liar or deluded"


I can not.

1. You are trying to prove that Muhammad is the messenger of God.

2. You made an argument first.

3. You have the burden of proof.

Since you have the BOP, I am compelled to simply refute your argument, which I cannot do with you actually presenting evidence.

I wish Pro luck for the final round.


Debate Round No. 4
AskMeAboutIslam

Pro

I gav u my arguments already u haven't rebutted them
MouthWash

Con

"I gav u my arguments already u haven't rebutted them"

I am trying to get you to understand that your arguments were fallacious.


As an example: "Is it possible for him to tell a consistent lie for 23 years, a lie so monstrous that it would make him a social outcast, when he was never known to have lied even once about anything? Its simply against the psychology of liars."

What does this mean? What kind of liar? What would his direct motives be? (beyond abstract concepts like "fame and fortune" or "moral progress." An example of this would be getting blackmailed). Everything relies on that. I cannot answer this because it is a broad assumption that you have not provided any evidence for.


"But when his uncle asked why hed didn't he gave a beautiful answer and said even if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left iq ould never give up this message. Does this sound like a liar."

See, all of your posts are full of these non-arguments, that I cannot answer to. Saying "Does this sound like a liar?" is not a true argument. Those that were you still provided no source for, and I cannot verify many of the things you say from sources outside the Quran. I have repeatedly asked you to provide evidence for your claims, you did not.


I also provided you with an alternative to all-out insanity (delusional disorder), and provided a source for it. Since you have the burden of proof, it was your job to refute this. You did not.

Conclusion

My opponent has shirked his responsibility to make direct arguments. He has only given fallacious statements and ignored my arguments. Since he has not reasonably proven that Muhammad is a messenger of God, I urge a Con vote.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by MouthWash 5 years ago
MouthWash
What? Nobody gives me spelling or sources?
Posted by beatmaster2012 5 years ago
beatmaster2012
Well played on the first round, pro.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by bossyburrito 5 years ago
bossyburrito
AskMeAboutIslamMouthWashTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: PURE WIN.
Vote Placed by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
AskMeAboutIslamMouthWashTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro didn't fulfill his BOP