The Instigator
VeniVidiVici
Con (against)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
gryephon
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points

Is Satan really evil?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
gryephon
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/9/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,502 times Debate No: 38702
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (4)

 

VeniVidiVici

Con

Hello, I would like a small debate on the question, is Satan really a bad guy in the bible? I'm an athiest and would like to exercise my arguement that god seems to be against humans and satan has done so many things for humanity such as:

- Give them free will and emotions
- Let them know the difference between good and evil
- Stand up for them against god

Also, nowhere in the bible is satan shown killing or torturing a human.
On the other hand, god slaughters and kills BILLIONS of people in floods, mass murders etc. including small children and women!

Please can someone explain why god is the good person here?
gryephon

Pro

First debate on here. So not sure what to say, I come from a Christian background, and a brief atheist. I also thank you for debating me.

Yes, Satan is a liar[1]. Lying is evil. He led Adam & Eve straight to their death. I can assure you that he is very wicked. Also, no thanks to him he gave us knowledge on how to be evil. He also caused them to stand up in rebellion without cause against an innocent God who gave them the world and everything in it for nothing.

I disagree with the statement that Satan doesn"t kill nor torture people. Read Job! God gave Job to Satan, and let"s just say he wasn"t having a tea party with him.

I do not know the origins of freewill, however, i'll assume that you're correct that he gave free will. The source to mankind"s ability to suicide, rape, lie, & steal. Thanks a lot Satan!

I believe it is ok to put to death exceedingly violent evil people. The Bible does make it clear that mankind before the flood were evil & violent[2], so if this is true I find no fault in the flood.

For the sake of clarity, my argument points are
I.Satan"s a wicked liar.
II.Root cause of mankind"s knowledge of evil.
III.Gave free will to be wicked.
IV.Tortured job, and killed his kids.
V.God"s killings are just.

With these 5 points, I contend that Satan is a bad guy in response to your question.

References
1.Gen 3:4 && Gen 5:5
2.Gen 6:5
Debate Round No. 1
VeniVidiVici

Con

I see your point here and thank you for accepting this challenge.
1) Satan did not lie, Satan said the apple will not kill them, when god said it would "surely lead to their deaths". Therefore satan told them the truth that the fruit would open their eyes. I see that it was wrong for satan to cause defiance, but he knew that humans had the rights to know the truth.

2) I haven't read the bible in depth, but i know enough to know god kills billions more than satan
If gods actions are just, then why is killing the convicted frowned upon now? "Thou shalt not kill" is defied by the rule setter, even if he is an omnipotent god this isn't a great example for the humans hes trying to teach peace to!

3) If humans were a failed creation that did so many sins, why not kill the ALL and create something else?
gryephon

Pro

1) No, God did not lie. Satan did say you shall surely not die, and Adam died at age 930[3] As to opening their eyes, No, it blinded them. A very wise man stated that the pure in heart shall see God[1]. So their eyes were blinded when their hearts became corrupted. Also, do you really think that mankind should know how to ol say rape a woman? For what is it worth that mankind should gain knowledge of evil and forfeit his soul in the process? I would prefer a lower IQ then my life.

2) Yes, God kills bad people. And he"s very open about this, as Jesus did state that he didn"t come to bring peace but a sword[2]. It is not the nature of God to be at peace with the wicked, justice and peace do not walk together, as justice is not at peace with criminals but at war. I think that you"re getting murder and killing mixed up" A better translation would be "thou shalt not murder" as exodus 22:2 seems to indicate if you kill a thief breaking in your own home then your innocent of bloodguilt. The Bible also allowed capitol punishment in other places. While I"m not saying, hey lets go kill people, I"m saying there are circumstances when killing is alright, and all killings by God are just.

3) Yes, this has happened before. It"s the story of Noah & the Flood. The reason is because not all humans are wicked. As Noah found favor in God.

----------
[1] Mat 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
[2] Matt 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."
[3] Gen 5:5 "Thus all the days that Adam lived were 930 years, and he died."
Debate Round No. 2
VeniVidiVici

Con

Impressive, but still I have a question.

What gives God the right to kill where we can not?

Ok, yes he is an omnipotent god, but, although he created us, wouldn't it be better if he treated us as equals? If those who devote their life to Christianity were rewarded before death, or even better, if God did a giant act to prove his existence to the atheists of today, then wouldn't he have succeeded in making all humans believe?

Instead of blaming sin on Satan now, shouldn't we look to God and ask "Yes, we sin, we did wrong, but, if you would just give us a chance, show us the way PROPERLY, then we could be what you want us to be!".

I know debating Gods morality isn't in the title of this debate but, please do give your opinion.

As for Satan's morality, what you have given me has changed my opinion, slightly. I see Satan as someone who wanted Humans to be more free, but it was a mistake for him to do so. So maybe he though "Well, I've done wrong, but I still have this power so... why don't I use it?". So what I now see is, Satan was in aspects 'good' and thought he was doing good by giving the humans free will and knowledge of good and evil but in doing so, and in being sent down from heaven, became evil because of his punishment. You could say God is partially to blame for Satan's full turn to evil but, it is, as we can say, debatable. So let's debate.
gryephon

Pro

When the wicked perish there are shouts of gladness, the demise of Osama Bin Laden brought rejoicing. For this shouldn"t be a question about rights to kill, but who should have the honors of killing scum, for the wicked forfeited their rights to life when they did people excessive evil. There is a case where it"s just not appropriate to kill, but to let God have the honors. An example might be vengeance killings, beware that you do not kill a child of his, for it is written that he would make his arrows drunk with blood. [1] It is not the job of an Atheist, Christian, Muslim, America, or Demon to do vengeance for him, vengeance should be his alone, so answering your question there is an area where it seems right for God to kill where we shouldn"t.

Equals? We"re no more equal with God than a child is with his parents, for the child is dependent on the parent, but not the parent on the child. And he did show us the way properly, as there is a truck load of godly men, commandments, good laws, and proverbs for prosperity, honor & life to learn from. The Bible is full of Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, as the English acrostic goes. But beware of not ever showing mercy to another, for if you are a merciless person, why should God see that you deserve a second chance when you are merciless yourself? Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Even if you were skeptical thinking that the Bible"s author was man as opposed to God, then should you think that if the devil was written to be good that somewhere in the text he would be shown clearly to be good? For all the areas that I have shown Satan in, he"s not put into a good light, for Satan is never good anywhere in the Bible. And do not blame God, saying that he is partially to blame, for as it is written "God tempts no one"[2], for it was desire that caused Satan to sin. So say to the spirit of Desire, "you are to blame!"

-------------
[1] Deu 32:42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh-- with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.'
Deu 32:43 "Rejoice with him, O heavens; bow down to him, all gods, for he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries. He repays those who hate him and cleanses his people's land."
[2] Jas 1:13 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one."
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by funwiththoughts 12 months ago
funwiththoughts
@Quatermass

I agree with you. But the question is about Satan, not God.

And if we assume that the Bible is in fact a valid point of reference/divine doctrine (which must be done if we acknowledge that God lied to Abraham and Sarah) then Biblical prophecies are valid evidence.
Posted by Quatermass 12 months ago
Quatermass
@funwithtoughts

Well one act of evil cannot be compared to the myriad acts of evil by the other. Also, since revelation is a 'prophecy' and has not yet (nor will it ever) come to pass, we can only say that Lucifer 'allegedly' brings about the apocalypse.

If the question is 'Is Lucifer Evil?' the answer must be 'Not nearly as much as God'.
Posted by funwiththoughts 12 months ago
funwiththoughts
@Quatermass: I agree that God (if he exists) is indeed evil, but in the book of Job Satan is the one responsible for the torture of Job (although God is equally bad for allowing it) and in Revelations it is Satan who brings about the apocalypse. Plus Satan tempts people to challenge God knowing full well that God will remain in power and send them to Hell for doing so. So I would say Satan is evil, even if not as much as God.
Posted by Quatermass 12 months ago
Quatermass
I feel the debate was a little one sided in that the 'pro' did not seem to possess a full knowledge of what is detailed in the Bible.

I would say God is more evil than Lucifer (there is no mention of Satan in the original Hebrew Texts). In the Bible God is jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Luficer's only real ills were to challenge God's authority and oppose omniscience, for which he was cast out of Heaven along with all those who disagreed with him. People tend to forget that Lucifer was an Angel of Heaven.

In regards to Adam and Eve Lucifer can only be found guilty of challenging people to challenge God's authority and think for themselves. God said to Adam and Eve that eating of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge meant they would surely die. This was a lie, for upon eating they did not die. Nor would they have died if God had not cast them out of the Garden of Eden. What did happen is that their minds were opened to the world around them for the first time, previously they had evidently been kept in a state of brainwashed ignorance.

There are other, many, points to be made.

God tells people to kill infants.
Lucifer does not.

God lied to Abraham and Sarah
Lucifer did not.

God is homophobic.
There is no evidence of Lucifer having the same policy.

God is misogynous.
There is no evidence of Lucifer having the same policy.

Heaven is for men (or at least it's description is designed to appeal to men).
Hell is for everyone. Also, Hell only mysteriously appears out of nowhere in the New Testament.

God attempted to commit genocide.
I find no evidence of Lucifer attempting the same.

I am a full believer of judging people by their actions and not their words.
Posted by funwiththoughts 1 year ago
funwiththoughts
@Wakenshaw: Satan was given a person named Job, whom he tortured. And Hell isn't in the OT.
Posted by funwiththoughts 1 year ago
funwiththoughts
1. "Give them free will and emotions"

Uhmmm no, God did that.

2. "Can someone explain why God is the good person here?"

Even if God is evil, that doesn't make Satan good.

3. "Lying is evil"

How are we gauging evil? From a utilitarian perspective such as my own there is no intrinsic harm done by lying. It may be dishonorable, but not evil.

5. "The Bible does make it clear that mankind before the flood were evil & violent"

According to God's standards. If Satan isn't evil, and God calls him the ultimate evil, then why should we trust God as to who's evil and who isn't?

6. "If gods actions are just, then why is killing the convicted frowned upon now?"

Well a jury today can make a wrongful conviction. God is omniscient and therefore knows whether or not someone is guilty. Also: Frowned upon by whom?

7. "If humans were a failed creation that did so many sins, why not kill the [sic] ALL and create something else?"

Isn't that basically the flood? And aren't you now going back on your stance that killing evil people is bad?

8. "As to opening their eyes, No [sic], it blinded them."

Uhhmmm, no, it gave them knowledge of what was right and wrong. Isn't that "opening their eyes"?

9. "It is not the job of an Atheist, Christian, Muslim, America, or Demon to do vengeance for him, vengeance should be his alone, so answering your question there is an area where it seems right for God to kill where we shouldn"t."

Got any reasons for this?

10. "We"re no more equal with God than a child is with his parents, for the child is dependent on the parent, but not the parent on the child."

Common argument. But then, is it just for a person to kill their child? I think not.
Posted by Wakenshaw 1 year ago
Wakenshaw
I have some issues with Satan having been given 'torture job' firstly no where in the old testament does it make any references to damnation in hell or its use as a place of torture. I would assume that god would have built up the character of someone as important as Satan in his first book instead of waiting for the sequel. Also, what would the devil torture, how do you torture the non-physical entity of the soul?
Posted by oppai_lover666 1 year ago
oppai_lover666
I want to accept this but I almost feel as if my stance is not really arguing yours... I can argue why god IS the good guy in the bible, but not whether god IS good or satan IS bad in and of themselves.
Posted by toady28 1 year ago
toady28
This is a good question.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Jakeross6 1 year ago
Jakeross6
VeniVidiVicigryephonTied
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Total points awarded:11 
Reasons for voting decision: This debate is very strange. Neither structure their arguments well, spelling errors are ripe throughout the debate, and it is clear that neither really knew what they were talking about. Morality of God is a huge question, and Satan most certainly is a good guy by many standards, but messes up in some cases. However, no resolution is proved or disproved in this debate. Rather, they both state opinions with no support arguments to help them. There are several good debates that discuss this topic and both Con and Pro could reference these so that they can see a better debate style. This one isn't on the topic, but if you look at the Con's arguments for this debate, it is a great guide how to do your own. http://www.debate.org/debates/Social-Media-for-people-only-above-age-20/1/
Vote Placed by funwiththoughts 1 year ago
funwiththoughts
VeniVidiVicigryephonTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con conceded that Satan was, in fact, evil, at least at present.
Vote Placed by KroneckerDelta 1 year ago
KroneckerDelta
VeniVidiVicigryephonTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct goes to Pro because Con veered far off topic several times. Pro's grammar was poor and at times made it difficult to read. This debate was not well framed: 1) there is no definition of evil ever given, 2) we have to assume a priori that the devil exists, and therefore 3) we have to assume that the Bible is authoritative. The last bit is the most troublesome since it is clear that the Bible regards Satan (or satan) as evil (or the deceiver). It should have been a slam dunk for Pro with the assumption that the Bible is authoritative (Revelation would have been the only necessary argument). Pro did a sub-par job but they provided examples of Satan lying, torturing Job, and gave man free will. Con attempted to rebut the claim about lying, but failed to rebut any of the other arguments made by Pro. Finally it's unclear if the debate states that Satan is ALWAYS evil, sometimes evil, or just usually evil. Pro definitely proved Satan to be evil sometimes.
Vote Placed by Nyx999 1 year ago
Nyx999
VeniVidiVicigryephonTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I love these kinds of debates. Kudos VeniVidiVinci (Con) for starting this argument, and I do believe that Con won. I love Con's creative arguments, and not only are they creative, but they are right. :)