The Instigator
C1aran
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Dann
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

Is Sir Alex Ferguson the greatest manager of all time?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Dann
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/14/2013 Category: Sports
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 763 times Debate No: 33705
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (0)
Votes (4)

 

C1aran

Pro

For me, he is without doubt the best there is, was or ever will be. His ability to man-manage is unmatched. Youth policy, squad rotation, they all said he was mad bringing all this in but 13 Premier Leagues, 2 Champions Leagues, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups and countless other trophies later I think it's safe to say he's been proved right. The man is a genius who's produced some of the finest footballers the game has ever seen. Without him, it is scary to imagine what the world of football would be like even if money and players egos have taken over a bit his presence has shone through and kept alive the ideals of what a football club should be. I think his legend is unrivalled in the game and never to be repeated, in my opinion the greatest of all time.
Dann

Con

I will accept and will be arguing that, although definitely ONE of the greatest managers of all time, he is not thee greatest.

I look forward to our debate.
Debate Round No. 1
C1aran

Pro

C1aran forfeited this round.
Dann

Con

A forfeit?

I'd better still state my case.

There is an extremely strong case to suggest that Sir Alex Ferguson is the greatest manager ever. Most would actually agree.

My case will be simple and straightforward. Since the careers of football managers naturally have varying longevity, I believe the only truly fair way to compare is by proportionate success. In this regard, I intend to show that Sit Alex, although being one of the greatest managers of all time, is not thee greatest manager.

Take a look at this source:

http://footballpantheon.com...

It ultimately supports my opponents proposition that Sir Alex is the greatest of all time. I am going to make a case for two of the other managers in this top ten to be considered greater. Firstly, look at the text supporting Alex as top dog. I refer specifically to this part:

"Indeed, there"s an interesting parallel between Ferguson"s time at United and that of Liverpool"s two giants.

Collectively, Shankly and Paisley were at Liverpool for 24 years. In that time, they won three European Cups, nine domestic titles, two Uefa Cups, two FA Cups and three league cups.

By comparison, Ferguson has been at Old Trafford for 25 years. In that time, he"s won two Champions Leagues, 12 domestic titles, a Cup Winners Cup, five FA Cups and four league cups. If anything, it illustrates the astonishing breadth of Ferguson"s career."

Now that sounds impressive. And indeed it is. Alex Ferguson has been more successful than the collective record of two great Liverpool managers who presided over great Liverpool sides.

Except. Except I believe that whilst Shankly was a great manager, lumping his record in with Paisley is doing Paisley a gross disservice. By doing this Shanklys record only serves to dilute the consistency of Paisleys dominance of both the domestic scene and the European scene. He had the whole football world on lock throughout his managerial career and he never relented. He was literally untouchable.

Look at it this way. Ferguson was in charge of united from Nov-86 until Jul-13. That is 26 seasons. In that time, he has won 13 Premier Leagues. His Man Utd side have been the best domestically for 50% of his tenure.

He has won 19 domestic cups in his 26 seasons. He has won a domestic cup for approximately 80% of his reign.

He has won the Champions League twice. He has been Champion of Europe for approximately 8% of his reign.

Lets look at Bob Paisleys record and see how it compares.

Paisley was in situ at Liverpool from 1974 until 1983. He was in charge for 9 seasons. In that time, he won the Premier League (or old 1st Div) 6 times. Paisleys Liverpool were the best side domestically for 66% of his reign

Paisley won 9 domestic cups. He has held a domestic cup for 100% of his reign. His Liverpool side had NEVER went a season without silverware.

Paisleys Liverpool won the Champions League (European Cup) 3 times. Paisleys Liverpool were ChMpions of Europe for 33% of his tenure. And Paisley is STILL the only manager in history to have ever won Europe top trophy on 3 occasions. His record still stands.

So, percentage wise.

Ferguson. Paisley

League winners. 50%. 66%
Domestic cup holders. 80%. 100%
European Champions. 8%. 33%

Proportionately speaking, Paisley was more dominant in every regard. Ferguson had the longevity as Paisleys managerial career was fairly short, but he packed unprecedented - and to this very day - unrivalled success into it. Bob Paisley has a stronger case for being the greatest manager of all time.

Jock Stein is my second case, but I will address him in the next round. I will also incorporate Sir Alex's St Mirren and Aberdeenrecords into his career stats and demonstrate that his record, although massively impressive, is still not on par with Paisleys.

Thanks.
Debate Round No. 2
C1aran

Pro

C1aran forfeited this round.
Dann

Con

F.F by my opponent.

Shame, could have been an interesting debate.

I will not post up the full case for big Jock in too much detail. All I will say is that he took a team from the poorest part of Europe - the East End of Glasgow - in one of the smallest countries in the world - Scotland - and it was a team that was made up entirely of local men. All born within a small radius of the stadium itself. He took them and did a number of great things. He won the league for 9 seasons in a row. He took those local lads and he won the European Cup with them. Not only were Celtic the first British side to win it, but they were also the first non-Latin side to win it. Up until that point, only teams from Spain, Portugal and Italy had ever won it. None of the German sides that would go on to dominate, none of the great Dutch sides, none of the great English sides. Just a pure Latin stranglehold on the competition. But not only that as well, but Celtic destroyed, in the process, the dominant strategy of the game up to that point - that of Catenaccio. The art of defence.

Celtics relentless battering of the hitherto unshakeable Italian style prevailed and heralded a new era, a new approach to football itself. It could be argued that Celtics flair in attack and their use of attacking fullbacks provided a genesis for the beautiful Total Football that was to come, perfected by the great Ajax side of the 70s and which has evolved today in the Tiki-Taka style of Barcelona. There is a direct lineage between the death of Catenaccio and the birth of the beautiful fluid game we see today. Jock Steins Celtic were the first to wound the Catenaccio style and go all out attack, getting every player involved in the attack. If we are talking about managers who are responsible for changing the course of the game itself, the whole sport itself, then Jock Stein was the manager who sounded the death knell of the old game and he was the piper at the gates of dawn for the new game. The fact that he did it with a team from tiny Scotland, in the dark, dank east end of Glasgow with only local players is a massive testament to his ability as a manager and a strong case to make him number one. It should be noted also that was Alex Fergusons mentor.

It should also be noted that he took Celtic to another European Cup final, but unfortunately they lost.

He utterly dominated the domestic scene. No team in the apparently superior footballing England could live with his sides. He took Europe by storm. Granted, he never quite had Europe on lockdown like Paisley, but just look at the contrasting contexts of money and population.

Also, so were his side that Celtic were selected as the opposition for the footballing giant Alfredo Di Stefanos testimonial vs Real Madrid. Di Stefano, the engine in Real Madrids 5 year dominance of Europe.

Celtic, and particularly Jinky Johnstone took them apart with such consummate ease that even the Real fans, so accustomed to seeing their side destroy the opposition with ease and flair, applauded their own dismantling. It is testament to Jock Steins managerial greatness that he could take the resources he did and build something so mighty. It is utterly unbelievable. All those stories about unlikely teams attaining something so out of reach - the Mighty Ducks, Little Rascals, a League of their own - all those types of stories - Celtic were a real life version, and all thanks to one man. Jock Stein. Greatest manager ever?

Oh, PS he also had a cartoon character created in his honour. If anyone remembers the cartoon The Hurricanes, they will remember the big Scottish manager of the team - Jock Stone. I rest my case.

Right. That said, whether you agree with the resolution or not, I think I have won this debate due to forfeiture.

Vote Con or Me (whichever I am)
Debate Round No. 3
No comments have been posted on this debate.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by 1Devilsadvocate 3 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
C1aranDannTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: F.F.
Vote Placed by phantom 3 years ago
phantom
C1aranDannTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit. Although, though I'm a Liverpool fan, I wouldn't agree with con that Shankly and Paisley were better than Ferguson. I don't think Ferguson is the best though. Args and conduct to con for forfeits.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
C1aranDannTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: FF.
Vote Placed by bladerunner060 3 years ago
bladerunner060
C1aranDannTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.