The Instigator
MigMau
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
Jingle_Bombs
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points

Is Snowden an hero or a traitor?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
MigMau
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/6/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,364 times Debate No: 36420
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

MigMau

Pro

I, as a non-american internet active user, think that what NSA is doing to my privacy is wrong although I knew it was happening before Snowden came. But I know most people dont know very much about this. But it concerns me that most americans see him as a traitor who gave information to terrorists and that they prefer to have no privacy than limitate the powers of NSA, which apparently just keeps the information without helping to prevent terrorism. And the worst I think its I and billions of other people don't have a vote on that. If someone would like to stand up and defend the brave nation of USA, I would be happy to see what you have to say.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

Snowden is most definitely a traitor for divulging national security secrets. Revealing classified programs to America's adversaries makes it much more difficult to protect the country in the long run and gives the enemy a know-how advantage for staying hidden against future intelligence gathering methods. And though many in the public strongly disagree with the NSA surveillance programs, the fact of the matter is is that these programs were deemed legal and have been proven to save lives. Forgiving Snowden of his crimes and handing those who would do us harm a victory would be a serious error of moral judgment in my view.
Debate Round No. 1
MigMau

Pro

1) America's enemies? So I'm an enemy of America? Glad to know I'm in the same file of the maniacs of 9-11. Not everyone else in the world is an enemy... Like, we in Europe don't dream every night on blowing 3000 people just because they pay the taxes to the American Government. It's disgusting to think that my personal messages and photos is side to side to Al-Qaeda new leader. And if Americans don't know, most Muslims don't want to kill you.
2) NSA doesn't prevent anything... The biggest experts on the subject say that they hard work steeling our privacy away serves a simple thing: keep them in a digital base with everyone else. So, they take our privacy away to collect everything. It sounds like a giant ciber-kleptomaniac... Which doesn't prevent the crime of steeling. Because if I enter in every personal account, calls and messages of someone I am criminal but if a bunch of right wing hackers do it for the USA government its called patriotism...

PS: To all NSA, CIA or another one we yet don't know, I dare you: come kill me! I'll be waiting...
PPS: If I don't continue with this, you know what happened so pray for my soul... :)
Jingle_Bombs

Con

1) If you are a member of a terrorist group that intends on planning and executing attacks against Americans, then you are an enemy of the United States. If you are a traitor to your country, in this case by unlawfully leaking classified information (through the public domain) to foreign governments, terrorist groups, and other unauthorized constituents, while also violating the trust laws that come with a top level security clearance, then you are a clearly a criminal, which is why Snowden is a wanted man. I don't believe I ever said you or Europeans were any of these things.

2) The "biggest experts" on the subject, starting with General Keith Alexander (Director of the NSA and national head of Cyber Security), fromer department heads of the CIA, and members of the House and Senate Intellgence Committee have all mentioned that the NSA programs save lives. In his speech to a Las Vegas Black Hat Conference, July 2013, General Alexander mentioned that the NSA data collection program has prevented at least 54 terrorist attacks since their inception.
http://www.crn.com...

President Obama has also concurred with this number in his speech at the Brandenburg Gate, July 2013.
http://news.yahoo.com...

And I mentioned before, these NSA programs are legal and are made legal through the Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. And this isn"t just some super-secret big brother spying program with no real safeguards in place. Each of these NSA programs must pass the host agency's inspector general, must be reviewed periodically by federal court, must be reviewed by the House and Senate Intelligence Committee (which is made up of elected officials), and must be reviewed by the Executive Branch itself. And that whole meta database that you keep talking about, which supposedly is nothing more than a giant phonebook because actual contents of emails and phonecalls are not recorded and cannot be viewed without a warrant, is only accessible by twenety-two people in the entire country. So I personally do not see anything wrong or even remotely effecting my privacy. What the NSA does is the equivalent to what the mailman does when he carries your mail, they read what"s on the outside of the envelop but not the letter itself.
Debate Round No. 2
MigMau

Pro

The problem is that even if I am not a terrorist, it has trouble to me too. Me and millions which, unlike the 56% of Americans who don't know how badly this can be, can't protest in the act of election for 2 reasons:
- No Washington candidate says that his/hers government will take the powers away of NSA;
- I can't vote for that not real candidate
So, if it was just for USA, I would worry but I would say "You are grown-up average civilized people, its your choice!" But since it involves me...
Its just unfair, actually . My country doesn't spy American citizens. And, before you ask, the reasons are:
- We just don't have any interest on your stuff
- If you found out you would declare us War and you would put an H bomb on top of us.
And I prefer not-governmental sources. I think it would be... Stupid to NSA or Pr. Obama to admit that they do that for nothing. I prefer to not trust on politicians honesty. Me and my compatriots are screwed by doing that.
And legal? The Patriot Act is the most illegal law ever! If that's a law, I will candidate to President, put a law saying: "Its legal to the President to kill for whatever reason he has". But I don't need to, that's why there is the death penalty.
Speaking on the Patriot Act, it says that warrants and everything like that its not necessary if you declare them terrorists.
But also, Snowden isn't dumb. If they were just kleptomaniac mailmen, he would continue his comfortable life in Hawaii but he must saw what they were really doing. And he did his heroic act and what did he earn? Their own call him a traitor because they put you in a shameful truth! The work of men isn't for making the US look good! Its to make the world a better place with honesty, collaboration and peace. And that's why he is an hero.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

1) - "No Washington candidate says that his/hers government will take the powers away of NSA"

You clearly never heard of Rand Paul then, a pretty influential Republican senator from Kentucky -and possible future candidate for President- who has been pretty outspoken about taking away surveillance duties from the NSA. I advise you to read up more on American politics before making rash assumptions from across the Atlantic Ocean.

2) - "I can't vote for that not real candidate"

No, you must be a US citizen to vote in America, but you can still petition your own government for redress. And its not like European countries do not have their own intelligence agencies or spy on other countries either. I'm willing to bet there is at least one European Surveillance program on Americans; and according to Eric Snowden - a "real expert" in your book of knowledgeable and trustworthy experts- the British GCHQ has the same programs as the NSA does, which really shouldn't surprise anyone.

http://www.theguardian.com...
According to this guardian news story above, brought to light by Eric Snowden, the British were monitoring phone calls and messages from their G-20 allies in 2009. So go figure!

3 - "The Patriot Act is the most illegal law ever!"

I'm not sure how a law that passed lawfully by elected officials can ever be illegal, and I think that would be pretty hard to explain that on an actual bar test. You might try to argue its constitutional basis, but as I already explained, the Patriot Act is already constantly reviewed by the federal court system. And that terrorist clause you talk about, only applies to foreign nationalists and State Department listed groups of known terrorist organizations, Al Qaeda members being one example.

4 ""And he did his heroic act and what did he earn? Their own call him a traitor because they put you in a shameful truth!"

If Snowden wanted to act responsibility, then he would have sought whistleblower protection through the US court system, his congressmen, or his sponsoring agency's inspector general system. Instead he went to Putin's Russia and Mao's China in Hong Kong and spilled US security secrets to them, hurting US diplomatic relations and jeapordizing future security in the process. That is why he is a traitor.
Debate Round No. 3
MigMau

Pro

I advise you to read up more on American politics before make rash assumptions"
Thank you for telling me about Rand Paul. I can explain why I didn't "read more about American politics". It's because, as in my country, and in America, all politics (almost all) make promises to get elected. Obama said he was going to reform the immigration politics and close Guantanamum Prison, but... So I'm not going to be to excited with that Rand Paul...

"But you can still petition your own government"
As I already said, I don't trust politics. And if my government, came one! You are the USA! We give you a suggestion and you say "If it wasn't us, you would be Nazi..." It was 69 years ago! Or you choose the second option and call us terrorists!

"British GCHQ has the same programs as the NSA does, which really doesn't surprise anyone."
You know what really doesn't surprises anyone? That the brave USA has it! And if you don't notice from my poor grammar, I'm not british. If you see my profile, I'm against EU. Yes, we aren't saints, but you aren't too! We have rights! I don't think I should have NSA watching me everywhere...

"I'm not sure how a law that passed lawfully by elected officials can ever be illegal"
The Patriot Act was passed by a nation terrified by 9-11. You thought that everything you could do to prevent it should be signed. It was a chance to manipulate you... You need to wake up. There is a way. The dialogue. The acceptance. Syrian refugees teenagers with excellent grades are expelled every year because their religion. There is a way. To put all the truth outside and dialogue. You need to go in Peace for all mankind.

And I'm not mention that you said only not-americans can be terrorists. Reflect on your words.

"If Snowden wanted to act responsibility"
He isn't stupid! That's all! If he acted responsibility, he would be incarcerated naked in an not existing jail without trial for years! That's why he acted like that! He knew if he went to bureaucracies, they wouldn't do a thing unless silence him. He risked everything for a real chance for us. That is why he is a hero.
Jingle_Bombs

Con

1)"As I already said, I don't trust politics. And if my government, came one! You are the USA! We give you a suggestion and you say "If it wasn't us, you would be Nazi..." It was 69 years ago! Or you choose the second option and call us terrorists!"

That"s ridiculous. I"ve never said Europeans were terrorists, but what I did say is that terrorists now know of our intelligence gathering methods, which of course is thanks to Mr. Snowden. And my suggestion for you to read up on American politics is so that you might form a more informed opinion.

2)"You know what really doesn't surprises anyone? That the brave USA has it!"

Yeah.

3)"Yes, we aren't saints, but you aren't too!"

Glad we can agree on something.

4)"I don't think I should have NSA watching me everywhere..."

This is again ridiculous. The NSA is not watching people everywhere; and I could argue that Europe has far more security cameras per capita than the United States. And once again, the meta data collection that everyone is so up and arms about is about the equivalent to a phonebook where the aim is to look up numbers associated with known terrorist groups who are based overseas. Actual domestic wiretapping still requires a court order.

5)"The Patriot Act was passed by a nation terrified by 9-11. You thought that everything you could do to prevent it should be signed. It was a chance to manipulate you... You need to wake up."

You need to wake up. The world changed on 9/11. Twenty Saudi nationalists killed over 3,000 American"s and brought down its tallest buildings with nothing more than box cutters. This was the largest attack on America since Pearl Harbor. And don"t think for a minute that terrorism is just a USA problem, it is a world problem; don"t you ever forget the London and Madrid bombings that happened in Europe"s backyard.

6)"He isn't stupid! That's all! If he acted responsibility, he would be incarcerated naked in an not existing jail without trial for years!"

No he wouldn"t. Had Snowden applied for whistleblower status through the civilian court system, he would have had to have gone through the judicial process "which includes a trial before jury- before ever being convicted for a wrong doing. He might have been fired for breaking company policy and upsetting his bosses certainly, but he would not have been incarcerated or have broken any of the country's laws. For not acting responsibly, Mr. Snowden is not a hero. But for betraying his country"s trust and damaging its security, he is a traitor.
Debate Round No. 4
MigMau

Pro

1) "Which of course is thanks to Mr. Snowden."
So, it's because of them terrorists did 9-11? Are they the only ones who practice ciber terrorism anyway? I mean wasn't the USA who turned down a nuclear central in Iran which was giving to millions, to hospitals, to people as innocent as any American and European?
And terrorists? Are you talking about he carrying a paste of secrets in China or Russia? China isn't a communist country anymore... They call it communism to have a way to enslave the people so Americans and Europeans go there and get Rich so they support the people in the system. US and China relations are getting much better. And Russia? You must think "Commies once, Commies forever..." And he brought the secrets to keep his head over his shoulders. He said that if an intelligence wants you, they'll get you, and he's just saying "Kill me and everyone will know how to keep your hands away from their, how to imitate you and your darkest secrets." Have you ever read Dan Brown's "Digital Fortress"? I bet he did.
2) "Still requires a court order"
Yeah, keep believing that. Your government appreciates.
3) "The world changed on 9/11"
It doesn't have to. You must realize. There is only a way to win this War the OIL started: Don't let this change our spirit of cooperation. The only way is the dialogue. If we change this way of thinking, of peace, of equality, they will won and 3000 good people died to feed the hate of men. Please, don't let it happen.
4) "No he wouldn't. Had Snowden applied for..."
No, that wouldn't go anywhere. He would be fired, the government would find a stupid way to make him the guilty one... Don't trust in the government. Don't do the same mistake we did.
Well, it was a fun challenging debate. I hope talk to you again... But you didn't changed my mind. Whatever they say. I talk for me and most Europeans when I say:
Snowden is a HERO
Jingle_Bombs

Con

Disagree with NSA suerveiliance all you want, but these programs are legal and have been proven to save lives. In order for counter-terrorism to succeed, homeland security needs to be right 100% of the time, the terrorists only need to be right once. And NSA wiretapping and data collecting plays a pivotal role in that.

Eric Snowden is not a hero. Not only did he act irresponsibly by leaking government secrets to the press instead to the courts, but he cowardly took refuge in one of the least democratic countries in the world. For hurting future into intellegence gathering, and for betraying the trust laws of his top secret clearance, Snowden is a traitor.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by MigMau 4 years ago
MigMau
Well, even so the simple act of reading those is bad. Computer or man.
And, for your vote... I'm sorry that my debate turned you into the traitor side... But your reasons are solids, but I can explain: most of my sources are from a articule I read a week ago but I lost the paper and it's not selling anymore or online. (I tried, really) And the rest I found on (legitimate) internet websites which I can't remember the url. I noticed it, but I'm sure all I put can be found by anyone.
Posted by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
You all do know that it's not some fat dude sitting at a computer reading your emails, it's just a computer scanning for suspicious key words used too often, and cross referencing against other flags in the system?
Posted by Duncan 4 years ago
Duncan
Don't forget to say hello, the NSA are watching.
Posted by MigMau 4 years ago
MigMau
Good point. But I also think that he isnt a traitor either. Traitors are the ones who didn't do anything to stop the NSA privacy violations.
Posted by induced 4 years ago
induced
cant he be a traitor and a hero? treason isnt always a bad thing. the question should be is he a bad person or a good person. obviously he's a good guy, risking going to prison to protect americans against their government.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by KingHenrikLundqvist 4 years ago
KingHenrikLundqvist
MigMauJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro had well put together arguments
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
MigMauJingle_BombsTied
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Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: S&G: Forgiven due to pro specifying his disadvantage in the first round. ARGUMENT: The actual resolution fell into a grey area in between, clearly to some (including enemies of America) Snowden is a hero. To others he's a traitor. Well I preferred Con's argument, being a voluntary American (needed it for security clearance to do my job at the time), I naturally have a bias on this. The strongest part of con's argument was of course pointing out with sources that it's been proven to save lives. SOURCES: Con used them for evidence, including good speeches by presidents and generals. Pro made claims against those, without actually countering the sources or providing his own.