The Instigator
Cooldudebro
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
Oshun
Pro (for)
Winning
10 Points

Is The Confederate Flag Racist?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Oshun
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/29/2013 Category: Education
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,351 times Debate No: 43102
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (48)
Votes (3)

 

Cooldudebro

Con

First round is for acceptance.
Oshun

Pro

My position is that the Confederate flag is racist. Understood that the flag being an inanimate object cannot of itself be racist, but what the flag symbolizes is racist. The flag represents the founding political ideologies, "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the Negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition" Vice president Alexander Stephens http://en.wikipedia.org...

Each person who joined with Confederate forces understood this was the ideologies of the Confederate, and anyone who stood deadest against slavery would not have joined the Confederate Army. The lines were clear in just what the Confederates stood for. If by chance the lines were not clear, it certainly would become clear when each Confederate state seceded, citing slavery as one of the main reasons in its "Cause of Secession", thus causing the Civil War. http://sunsite.utk.edu.... The Confederates knew what was at stake when fighting the Civil War.

All too often when considering the symbolism and views of the Confederate flag, it is only considered from the perspective of Confederate soldiers, by their descendants, or sympathizers of the Confederate Cause,never considering how the flag is viewed by the people it has victimized and how it is viewed by their descendants. Freedom was the only cause that mattered to African Americans, in which the Confederates stood undeniably squarely against, regardless of any other cause they may have had, or what the flag was a symbol of in the past. It stood squarely against African Americans having their freedom, all going back to its original premise as stated by Alexander Stephens. This is what the flag represents.

It is also my position that the "misinformation" being put out about the Confederate flag comes from "The United Daughters of Dixie" in what is known as their " Lost Cause Agenda" http://rationalwiki.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Cooldudebro

Con

Cooldudebro forfeited this round.
Oshun

Pro

I notice people constantly bringing up that a flag in and of itself cannot be racist. This is true, but what the cause the flag represents can be. This seems to be well understood by Confederate sympathizers when it comes to flags like the Taliban Flag, Nazi Flag, ect but want to separate the Confederate flag from it's cause. The Confederate flag represents the Confederate cause, and the people involved in that cause. It's no separation of the CSA flag from the cause it represents, certain facts go behind the cause and the flag that represents the cause. Those facts cannot be altered or changed to suit an individual's need to see it in a certain way. If individuals chose to ignore the facts behind the Confederate cause, it should be well understood if other persons who choose not to ignore the evidence, considers it to be racist. I keep hearing the Confederates cause was not just for slavery. If slavery was targeted to groups of individuals of African decent is all that is required for it to be called racist. The Confederate Cause was to uphold African American slavery, regardless of what other cause they may have had in mind. Slavery was not issued upon blacks because of their religious beliefs, political associations, economic status, it was imposed because of their race, making it racist and the cause that supported upholding this kind of industry. Also these other cause I hear Confederate sympathizers speak of where minor to the ideal of slavery. Again read their letters of secession http://sunsite.utk.edu....... . They were talking about either slavery, or issues revolving around slavery. So I don't understand where are Confederate sympathizers getting, it was all about state rights, tariffs, ect..........
Debate Round No. 2
Cooldudebro

Con

Hello! I am here to prove that the confederate flag is not racist. Sorry! I was busy before!

Case 1: The confederate flag is heritage!

The confederate flag is a sign of heritage! As many people think all the white confederates were racist, this is actually not true. Many people in the south did not own slaves. (1) In fact, I have a confederate flag and are friends with many colored people. If the confederate flag was racist, it would be a conflict of interest? (2) and (3) The reason I have the flag is heritage. I am from the south, and so I want people to know that. The link shows that many groups who used the flag, such as the Klu Klux Clan, used the confederate flag. But, some also used the union flag.(4) Does that make the USA racist?

1.
http://www.searavenpress.com...

2. http://elm.washcoll.edu...

3. http://www.rulen.com...

4. http://www.angelfire.com...

2. Some owned slaves because economical situations, not racism!

Many kept their slaves because the slaves would have no chance in making a good living for themselves because their was racism in the north. (1) As you can see in the link, there was a large amount of prejudice, even in the Union army! (2) This proves that the union was just as racist, or more so, than the southerners! As you see in the link, there were 65,000 ex-slaves in the confederate army! After Lincoln passed the law to end slavery, why did the ex-slaves say and not flee to the north?

1. http://answers.yahoo.com...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. If the confederate flag is racist, why not the American flag?!

As stated in the previous links, many northern people were prejudice just as or more than the southerners. If we declare the confederate flag to be racist, shouldn't we say USA's flag racist!?

If Oshun wishes to prove me wrong, she may do so as soon as possible. Thank you!
Oshun

Pro

"The Confederate flag is a sign of heritage".

The Confederate flag represents the Confederate's and their cause. The purpose in which the flag was designed for had a particular meaning, with the facts behind the basis in which the Confederacy was born. The facts behind it cannot be altered to suit ones need to see the flag in a certain way, just as one cannot change the meaning of a Nazi Flag. There is no separating the Confederate flag from the Confederates. It's a reason it's called "The Confederate Flag".

"Many people in the south did not own slaves. (1) In fact, I have a confederate flag and are friends with many colored people. If the Confederate flag was racist, it would be a conflict of interest?"

You did not have to own slaves to support the slave industry, or to have aspirations of owning slaves when the opportunity afforded itself. Many Confederate soldiers did not own slaves but nevertheless fought in the cause to uphold slavery.

" In fact, I have a confederate flag and are friends with many colored people".

"COLORED PEOPLE!!!" the friends you speak of I assure you do not speak for the majority, especially if they don't mind you referring to them as "Colored people". "

The reason I have the flag is heritage. I am from the south, and so I want people to know that."

I am from the South as well and I don't see anyone who has any empathy towards slavery or blacks with a Confederate flag, Never! My position on the CSA flag is not based on the fact of the KKK using it. It was the facts I gave in my first argument. The KKK just happens to know why it is racist and don't delude themselves like others do when it comes to the truth behind the flag, and what the Confederate cause represents. "
"Does that make the USA racist?"
The US flag disposition towards slavery changed, so it's cause was no longer identified with slavery, and declared it so in the Constitution giving African Americans the opportunities that the CSA tried to keep blacks from, in which African Americans had to fight the with the Confederates to enjoy the liberties of the Constitution, That's what puts the Confederate flag on the antagonistic side of the story . Freedom on Union territory came via the US Flag, the 14 amendment came via the US flag. It was the dying declaration of the CSA flag on the other hand that the Negro remains as slaves. The resolve of the Confederate flag never changed. My claim is not that the CSA flag is racist because racist organizations use them so the links you gave won't do me any good.

"Some owned slaves because economical situations, not racism!"

Slavery imposed on those who were born of African decent, not religious beliefs, political associations, or economic status, it was because of what race they were. If that's not racism I don't know what is. Anyone who owned slaves obviously supported the belief that the Negro is not equal thus giving them a justification to own slaves. If it were not the case and they believed different they would not have owned slaves.

'Many kept their slaves because the slaves would have no chance in making a good living for themselves because there was racism in the north.;
LOL!!! I suppose this is why many African Americans would constantly escape to freedom in the racist North, long before the Civil War. It was out of concern for the Negro that they would be seriously maimed or killed when caught trying to escape North, because slave owners were so worried about what the racist North would do to them right?

If sources are given to me, please make sure they are not biased to your positions, in which they may not be, but I would like to know before checking the sources. The sources I give are letters signed by Confederate officials during the times of the Civil War, filed in CSA state's archives with the disposition of those documents filed in the Supreme Court. If you can give me any source more legitimate than those sources, please let me know, but they would have to have more legitimacy than those sources.
Debate Round No. 3
Cooldudebro

Con

Rebuttal 1:

My opponent has not presented a link to back up her statement this round. you also failed to refute that the Union owned and started slaves in America. You failed to refute that if the confederate flag standed for racism, so would the Union flag. Not the present American flag!

Rebuttal 2:

"Colored people" is the most P.C. I am also technically colored, because I am half Hispanic, and have a tan. It is less offensive than calling them black. I can not think of any other way to say it then calling them either colored (like me) or black. I am for racial equality, but I can not think of another way to say it. I am sorry if I offended you.

Rebuttal 3:

Well, you want to see blacks with a confederate flag? Here you go. (1) You must have not read my link about the Klu Klux Clan. They also used American flags. Please read my link and re-write your statement again please. I am for racial equality, I just did my homework on the subject (figuratively). That's how I know it is not racist. If the confederate flag is racist, why are blacks having them?

1. https://www.google.com...

Rebuttal 4:

Lincoln made his slave states that were fighting for him exempt from this law (1) So slaves were not given freedom everywhere! You must have also neglected to read that 65,000 slaves stayed and fought for the union. If they wanted to, they would have left.

1. http://cannabisnowmagazine.com...

Rebuttal 5:

You obviously forgot all the other slaves at the time. (1) It also states black people enslaved white people, and it is still going on today! It also states that 2% of people owned slaves! So think, some areas in the north, slaves were legal. so, maybe a little less than 1% of southerners owned slaves. So, if a black owned a white, they thought their own race was not equal. The CSA flag has changed the flag 3 times.

1. http://violenceagainstwhites.wordpress.com...

Rebuttal 6:

Again, you neglect to acknowledge that 65,00 freed slaves stayed and fought for the confederacy. Not to mention the other who stayed at their land owners land. Their was still a lot of prejudice against freed slaves! Read my links!

Every source you post are bias to your opinion or else you would be proving your opponent's point. By the way, your link stated that the Vice President of the CSA was for slavery, a nation who's Vice President is less than I have refuted % of the majority, does not make the country racist. Also, many states repealed laws to expand slavery. If you want me to, I will provide a link backing up my statement. I have refuted everything in round 3. If The is anything I didn't address, you may say so as soon as possible.
Oshun

Pro

"My opponent has not presented a link to back up her statement this round. you also failed to refute that the Union owned and started slaves in America. You failed to refute that if the Confederate flag stood for racism, so would the Union flag. Not the present American flag!"

My links were provided in round one. I have already addressed the issue of the Union flag being racist. I already expressed because of the ratification in the US Constitution, the Union Flag was no longer identified with slavery. Slaves could also be free on Union territory, making it another reason it cannot be identified with slavery. Both the North and South had its hand in slavery, however it was the CSA that had a cause to preserve the institution of slavery as stated in their secession letters from each CSA state wanting to secede in which I gave you the links to see for yourself http://sunsite.utk.edu.... My links are not biased opinions of people that wish to glorify the Confederate flag, while not being supported by facts.

"Colored people" is the most P.C. I am also technically colored, because I am half Hispanic, and have a tan. It is less offensive than calling them black. I can not think of any other way to say it then calling them either colored (like me) or black. I am for racial equality, but I can not think of another way to say it. I am sorry if I offended you.

It's not so much offensive,as it is a sign that you are not using to being around African Americans to accurately take their opinion as facts to what represents the majority. It does not sound good to blacks but can be understood in some cases. I in particular don't like to be called colored because it has implications of signs like "Colored Waiting Room" "No Coloreds Allowed" it expresses a lack of empathy for blacks just the same as the people who supports the Confederate flag. I don't make an issue of it, and think nothing of it, if the person saying the word "Colored" is at least of 60 years of age. I was a nurse and been around plenty of Southern whites that age and understand that's what they grew up calling them. So it does not get as much thought from me as someone around your age saying it. I can bet if I hear you use the word colored you don't have a lot of black friends and it wouldn't be far from that person to own a Confederate flag. All that is just my personal opinion and it's not important in the context of what we are talking about.

Well, you want to see blacks with a confederate flag? Here you go. (1) You must have not read my link about the Klu Klux Clan. They also used American flags. Please read my link and re-write your statement again please. I am for racial equality, I just did my homework on the subject (figuratively). That's how I know it is not racist.

" If the Confederate flag is racist, why are blacks having them?"
What source could I give you to show you that what you see a minority of blacks doing, is no reflection of the majority? There are blacks who would rather identify with the same ideologies of their southern white associates, to simply fit in with them. They understand that they couldn't, be friends with someone who they acknowledges is lying to them about their history with little, to no empathy for their ancestors or, ancestry which they don't want to be reminded of by taking the time to learn their history, so it's easier to accept what they are being, told as truth. It's far easier to them to be white than it is to be black.

What I am saying to you if you must give me a link, make sure it's a link that rebuts my claim. It was never my claim that no African American owns a Confederate Flag, but I can say they are not in the majority, far from it. My claim was never that the Confederate flag is racist because of racist organizations like the KKK using them. I don't disagree with any site that rebuts that claim.

"Lincoln made his slave states that were fighting for him exempt from this law (1) So slaves were not given freedom everywhere! You must have also neglected to read that 65,000 slaves stayed and fought for the union. If they wanted to, they would have left."

What slaves states were fighting for Lincoln? No slaves were not free everywhere, this is what blacks on the Union side of the Civil War was fighting for. Maybe I am not understanding you on that question.

Deflecting the blame on the North does not help, in fact it only proves itself to be one of the tenets of "The Lost Cause".http://en.wikipedia.org...

I understand the Union was not fighting to end slavery, more so than it was an effort to win the war with the South. It doesn't matter because they were neither an institution that stood to preserve slavery, and slaves could also be free on Union territory.

"You must have also neglected to read that 65,000 slaves stayed and fought for the union. If they wanted to, they would have left."
What does that prove??? Slaves that fought for the Union? Of couse they did because they wanted their freedom from the South/Confederates.
I don't doubt that you are showing me certain facts by the website you give me but unfortunately none of them rebuts the claims I am making.

"You obviously forgot all the other slaves at the time. (1) It also states black people enslaved white people, and it is still going on today! It also states that 2% of people owned slaves! So then, some areas in the north, slaves were legal. So, maybe a little less than 1% of southerners owned slaves. So, if a black owned a white, they thought their own race was not equal. The CSA flag has changed the flag 3 times".

If blacks have a flag that represents them enslaving whites, simply by virtue of being white, whites would have every reason to call it racist you are giving me this source "http://cannabisnowmagazine.com...; "Cannabisnowmagazine" . Are you kidding me??? You did not have to own slaves to support the slave cause. I know I said that before in my arguments.
Debate Round No. 4
Cooldudebro

Con

Rebuttal 1:

You self destructed your own argument there. This links states many other reasons the states suceeded! That's right! The union flag is no longer racist! It was in the past! Same with the confederate flag! The confederacy no longer exists, so how can it be racist? Just like the union flag, many people who have it today are against slavery. There are still some though that support slavery! Same with the confederate flag! Many slave states as you call them, voted against the expansion of slavery. Now that is just mean. I gave you valid links. What are yours? Did you get lazy and decide that you are going to post very little? That's what I think happened.

Rebuttal 2:

How am I supposed to say it.?We don't take it offensive when you call us white people. You have no point here.

Rebuttal 3:

You are basically seceding your point on that one. That is not a good reason. If they were that despised by people of the south, they would know they would never fit in. Now you are being racist! We have a lot of empathy for your ancestors, and we are sorry for what the minority of our ancestors did, but we are different now. It is just that your race wants to put the blame on something, and chose the confederate flag. You are basically saying you don't know your history. We don't want to make you guys feel bad, we just want you educated that it is not the south's fault! what you are saying about blacks wanting to be white, is ignorant! Well then, how is the flag racist? By the vice president? By the less than one percent of people who thought slavery was right? Look, you seem like a nice girl, but you need to read more on this. I know it will change your mind. I know your race has been through rough times, same as my race (. Race not religion!) My race has been through genocide! But that does not mean we hold a grudge against Germans. Many Germans thought it was wrong, but were manipulated by Hitler (The biggest SOB) But that didn't make Germany racist. The case is even stronger here. Even more people in the south were not racist compared to Germany. Look, I know it is goanna hurt, but it will give you a whole new prospected of the confederacy if you look at the history. There were many free black men and women.

Rebuttal 4:

Whoops! My bad! I was kinda rushed so I accidentally put union instead of confederacy! It is true though. 65,000 black men stayed and fight for the confederacy! Read my previous arguments for a further rebuttal. It states that many southern states voted to end the spread of slavery!

Rebuttal 5: Look and read Rebuttal 4

Rebuttal 6:
Many people did not support slavery! If they did, why didn't they have any? I found that source randomly and you have no right to change that link! That is very bad conduct! I implore you to look at my previous link. That is very underhanded!

My opponent has failed to refute my BOP.
My opponent changed my link so that is a loss of conduct.
Many arguments my opponent could not successfully refute!

Thank you for reading and vote con!
Oshun

Pro

My claim was not that they did not have other reasons for seceding, If you really read the link I gave you http://sunsite.utk.edu.... What other issues did you see that was mentioned more than slavery, or an issue revolving around slavery? "Negro" slavery to be exact. Another thing I fail to understand is why those other issues should even matter to me as an African American or anyone who has any empathy towards slavery thus African Americans. Is it true that CSA had a cause to preserve African American slavery, that was imposed because of race? If the answer to that question is yes, then that makes the Confederates and the Confederate cause racist and the flag that represents it, regardless what other reasons they may have had. If you really read the link I gave it should be no question that their cause was to preserve slavery.

" The confederacy no longer exists, so how can it be racist? "
The flag that represents them exist, and the facts that go behind the Confederate cause still exist. Also a Confederate organization known as the "United Daughters of The Confederacy" with an agenda to purposely lie and alter the facts of the Civil War to purposely do what you are trying to do now, which is to separate the Confederates from its last will and testament for blacks to remain as slaves. Those Confederate Organizations still exist. The agenda that I speak of is known as "The Lost Cause Of the Confederacy/South".http://rationalwiki.org.... Did you happen to
catch that link?

"Just like the union flag, many people who have it today are against slavery"
I can never make such an assessment to know if the people that carry the CSA flag is racist because I don't know what's on their hearts and minds. But I can say the Confederate Cause was to preserve African American slavery, regardless of these other issues you speak of, and the flag does represent the confederates and their cause. It's not called the "Confederate Flag" for it to have no association to the Confederates. The flag that they used is the same flag we are speaking of now. The union was no longer identified with slavery because of changes ratifications in the Constitution with its liberties extending to blacks to this day, also blacks were allowed freedom on Union territory. The US flag does not belong to the Union. It represented the North and South, until the South got the idea to use the Confederate Flag, so they do stand out, and for what do they stand out? Read their letters of secession/sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html. ?.

https://www.google.com...... ( That link only takes me to pictures of Byron Thomas)
. http://en.wikipedia.org...... ( That link tells you that blacks did not serve in the Confederate army as soldiers but as musicians, cooks, and body servants, who duties merely changed from the cotton field to serving their masters on the battlefield, so that totally rebuts your claim of Black Confederate soldiers (enough to mention at least). It tells you that blacks were not even allowed in the Confederate army till the South was desperate for men, with the war ending two months latter with hardly any blacks enlisting)
http://violenceagainstwhites.wordpress.com...... ( This is why I don't like reading your sources, for one it's totally off topic of the Confederates role in the preservation of slavery, and that is nothing but a racist website, while you are debating with me about the Confederate flag Ummmmm! They give no facts, no sources as to where they get their information.)
http://www.searavenpress.com...... ( Again something totally biased to what you want it to say while giving no reliable source to their information that website totally rebuts all of their claims with sources to back it up. http://rationalwiki.org.... You should have at least brought, and read the book before listing it as a source.
http://elm.washcoll.edu... ( Maybe you can help me out being you keep giving me these websites that I may as well have logged onto 'Stormfront", Where does this site gets it sources? What historical documents can they show me that rebuts any of my claims or the websites I use. )

http://www.rulen.com...... ( Same thing, no historical merrit, no documents, no source info)
4. http://www.angelfire.com...... ( Please don't bother to give me any more sources that expresses a personal opinion rather than facts)

"How am I supposed to say it? We don't take it offensive when you call us white people. You have no point here".

Personally, I would advise to not go around a black majority referring to them as colored , this is regardless of me being offended by it or not. Some may overlook it, some may not and of the percentage that's not, may want to do you harm, or you simply won't have any good dealings with in which you should if you are not trying to offend them.
We don't find it offensive if you call us black, so you shouldn't be if we called you white. I have never been told by any white person that's it's offensive for you to call them white. My point was that I personally don't believe you have many black friends or, been around many blacks to accurately reflect the black majority's views on the CSA flag, if you refer to them as colored, but that's just my personal opinion and it's not to sound disrespectful to you.

"Now you are being racist! We have a lot of empathy for your ancestors, and we are sorry for what the minority of our ancestors did, but we are different now. It is just that your race wants to put the blame on something, and chose the confederate flag."
Don't know how I got the title of racist, when I am not. If you had empathy for our ancestors then why would you have a flag that stood to preserve their enslavement? Why are these other issues you speak of more important than human beings being enslaved? The only way that flag could mean anything different to say it does not represent the Confederates, and the cause that made them Confederates. There was no "minority" among the Confederates either you were, or you were not if you were, you knew what was at stake and what you were risking your life in the Civil War for. I guess I am racist because I can make CSA state secession letters disappear. Why did you not see any abolitionist in the CSA? Why do you suppose "black people want to put the blame on the CSA fl. Why do you suppose blacks are doing this? You must have an answer to that question to even asses as much that "blacks" intentionally want to do this without cause. I want to see how you will answer this question without expressing some idea that blacks are inferior in their way of thinking to come up with the idea that the CSA flag is racist, as if they can't read and reason for themselves. Education is what should tell you why the Confederate flag is racist. When you speak of the South that's different than the Confederate flag. I am from the South and proud to be a southern gal, but the CSA flag is not the South. You seem to be a very nice guy. I know I can be blunt sometimes, but please don't take it as disrespect, because I don't mean to be. Jews shouldn't have anything against Germans, but I could certainly understand if they did have a problem with Nazi's and the flag that represents them like the Confederate flag represents the Confederate flag. German does not mean Nazi, Southern white does not mean racist. I know this because I am a southern gal. The confederate flag does not represent the south to me, but it does represent a cause to preserve slavery in the South.
Many people did not support slavery! If they did, why didn't they have any?
You did not have to own slaves to support the idea and cause to preserve slavery. Many Confederates did not own slaves either. I was not trying to change up your link. How could I if you posted your link correctly? I just noticed the word Cannabis on the site you gave.
Debate Round No. 5
48 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Respectfulconversation 1 year ago
Respectfulconversation
Btw wikipedia is not a valid source. They wont accept that in college for a reason as a source.
Posted by Respectfulconversation 1 year ago
Respectfulconversation
What about the 70 free black men who proudly joined the confederate army and fought....? So now they are for slavery since they joined army. That makes no sense
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
Would you consider documents written and signed by CSA state officials as a reliable source with each Confederate states, dispositions filed in the supreme courts, as reliable information? Those secession letters are of supreme importance because it's just not personal opinion, but key documents that express, the exact reason the Confederates chose to fight in the Civil War.

Secession is what caused the Civil War, so the reasons recorded in a "secession letter" would be their reason for fighting the Civil War. If those are not reliable sources for you, then forgive me if they are to me and others. It would be too much evidence to ignore when giving the most honest look at the subject, with secession letters and documented speeches of the Confederacy, not being the only sources of information pointing to the CSA role in preserving the institution of African American slavery. I didn't just give my opinion http://sunsite.utk.edu...... That link, are the secession letters of the Confederate States, that does not give an opinion, but gives each state associated with the Confederate cause, reasons for war, it's not an opinion. You can look up those secession letters on any website that has them or in each CSA state itself. It's not my opinion that makes the flag racist, it's the facts behind it.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Oshun,

I am glad you won; your opponent was very weak at everything in this debate.

So, now you are tied on this debate, with one win and one loss.

In my opinion, your arguments were not sound and you gave no reliable sources either as I stated in my RFD comments.

This debate was all about your opinion that the Confederate flag is racist. You are entitled to that opinion, which is not share my the majority of blacks or whites, according to the Phew poll I cited.

Your opponent was not very good at anything as far as debating goes; and, he obviously was a racist.

Your opponent in the other debate was very good and beat you fair and square.

Good luck in your next debate.

George
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
4. Is the Confederate flag being racist, contingent on the fact of the KKK using it or blacks being offended by it? No. It's the facts that go behind the Confederate and their cause that makes it racist regardless of who knows about those facts. People being offended is only a "By product" of what the flag actually represents and why racist organizations identify with it.

5. So why is the US flag not racist? Even while the North had its hand in slavery, they had no cause to preserve slavery, neither did blacks have to perish in a war simply to enjoy the liberties the US flag promised. Even while the US had its hand it slavery, its position was no longer identified with slavery, making it clear in the US Constitution, with the 13 amendment, in which the Confederate side fought against. Freedom on Union territory was also given to African Americans, which is why blacks would constantly try and escape to the North away from the South before the Civil War, and during the Civil War. The US flag represents the land and opportunity it gave in the Constitution, not Union soldiers, who did not care if blacks, were slaves or not.
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
The following are key facts you cannot avoid.

1. Was the Confederate Cause, a cause that had anything to do with the preservation of African American slavery? Yes, because it says so in it's secession letter, not being mentioned as a "minor" reason or a satellite issue to another main issue. The main reason was slavery. Mississippi, said it best in its letter of secession "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery" with the rest of the states saying the same thing in a different way. http://sunsite.utk.edu...

2. Was slavery imposed because of race? Yes, it was. Again, look to their secession letters which also coincides with the Vice president of the CSA, Alexander Stephens "Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."http://en.wikipedia.org.... That's all that is required for the Confederate cause and the flag that represents that cause, to be identified as racist. Regardless of other "minor" reasons they had in fighting the Civil War.

3. Was the "Confederate flag" a symbol designed to represent the Confederates and the Confedrate Cause? Not to sound offensive to anyone but that one is almost pointless to even argue, it's not called the Confederate flag to have no associations to the CSA. It's pointless to try and separate the Confederates from their flag. It's the Confederates that had a clear cut cause to preserve "Negro Slavery". That's not an attack on the, South, nor Southern whites, the confederates are not the South. Nor does it mean that I am racist because I choose not to ignore the facts that confirm the CSA flag as racist. The facts have nothing to do with me. I can't make them disappear, neither can you reasonably ignore them, expecting others to do the same
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
I don't like using Wiki, but if ever I have used Wiki it's because they give me the sources of where they get their info. The challenge I was made to "Cooldudebro" was if he was to give me any sources, make sure it has sources to back up its arguments or is the source itself with historical merit, in which he did not provide me, and anyone could have seen this if they were not biased to their position only seeing what they wish to see.

To my future debators:
If anyone else wishes to debate me please do not give me the sources, that only gives me personal opinion. I was almost upset with Cooldudebro for giving me some of those websites because they were too racist for me, and I really could have gone without reading some of them, especially when they prove nothing. I had some idea that those sites would be, which is why I did not want to read a lot of his sources. Never give me any racist websites to prove the Confederate flag is not racist. It pretty much tells me you are racist for agreeing with those sites. Also do not give me any of the Tenets of the "Lost Cause Agenda" because that will tell me you are dedicated to putting out information, you already know is not true.
Posted by Oshun 3 years ago
Oshun
Sorry I missed some of your questions GWL
"Cheetah agreed with neither Oshun nor Cooldudebro after the debate; therefore their arguments and sources must have been equal."
In all honesty Cooldudebro gave "NO" reliable sources. The sources that came close to reliable did not address the claims I was making. If anyone can prove the sources I give as wrong, it would not bother me, I really want to know the truth when it comes to anything, I want the truth more than I want to be right. The sources I give are documents with historical merit, they are documents that can be viewed by the public in most CSA states. They are dispositions filed in the Supreme Court. Those key pieces of information I give also coincides with African American history so you have two different sides of history giving the same account. Those documents are nothing the South is denying having nor are they saying it's something the North fabricated. It would have been too great of a challenge for Cooldudebro or anyone to disprove those documents, if you give it a fair, clear, unbiased look when considering the
evidence.
"If it was"to the official flag of the Confederate States, then it can"t represent the Confederate States as Oshun as stated."
If it's called the "Confederate Flag" than it has associations to the Confederates, regardless of what purpose, the Confederates used it for, or it being their official flag.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Part I

The voting on this debate is just more proof of why these debates should be decided by judges, not members, or that the minimum number of voters needs to be 50 or more or for the debate to count.

Confirmation bias is why Oshun won this debate. Cheetah says he agreed with Cooldudebro before the debate, but after the debate it is tied. But he gave the points for arguments and sources to Oshun. That is illogical and makes no sense. Cheetah agreed with neither Oshun nor Cooldudebro after the debate; therefore their arguments and sources must have been equal.

Anyway, the way most members vote at this site is based on confirmation bias. Cheetah says he writes for RationalWIKI, which states that the Rebel flag was actually not the official flag of the Confederate States of America. If it wasn"t the official flag of the Confederate States, then it can"t represent the Confederate States as Oshun as stated.

Anyway, what the Rebel flag symbolizes depends on your confirmation bias, basically your opinion on what you were taught growing up. Again, the flag is an inanimate object and can"t be racist; only people can be racist.
Posted by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
Part II

"10 Surprising Facts About The Confederacy"
STEPHANIE ROBERTS DECEMBER 6, 2010

"There are actually several different designs for the confederate flag. The flags differed depending on which region they was used in, and the regiment they represented. The most recognizable is the Confederate Battle Flag which represented the Army of Northern Virginia. The Confederate Battle Flag is also known as the "rebel flag" or "Dixie flag", and incorrectly referred to as "Stars and Bars". The Confederate Battle Flag never actually represented the Confederate States of America, CSA, as a nation. The state flags of Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee are all based on Confederate flags. The flag of North Carolina is based on the state"s 1861 flag, which dates back to the Confederacy and appears to be based on the first Confederate flag. The first official flag of the Confederacy, called the "Stars and Bars," was flown from March 5, 1861, to May 26, 1863 " it is pictured above."
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by GWL-CPA 3 years ago
GWL-CPA
CooldudebroOshunTied
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Reasons for voting decision: See the Comments section for my RFD - Reasons for Decision
Vote Placed by Cheetah 3 years ago
Cheetah
CooldudebroOshunTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: Overall, Pro has made a very convincing argument. However, at the first round, Pro did not follow the instruction at the first round "First round is acceptance" (Con) and at Round 3 Pro wrote: "LoL!!" which is rather disrespectful and informal. However, Con had forfeited the second round. Throughout the debate, Pro have shown much commitment and made sure to verify Con's sources at the last round. Spelling and Grammar: Both pro and con showed adequate grammar usage, however, pro has better syntax and diction, hence, +1 to Pro. Pro has given sufficient proof and sources are reliable. Con has one of his sources from Answers.yahoo, which is never a good idea.
Vote Placed by STALIN 3 years ago
STALIN
CooldudebroOshunTied
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Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: Although both sides had good arguments, I would say that Con won this debate in terms of arguments. He had fewer arguments but he did show how the Confederate flag isn't really racist. Even blacks have them. Con showed how there is not too much difference between the Confederate flag and the American flag today. Con won this debate because mainly because he showed how the Confederate flag does not in any way, represent the racism that took place during the time of the Civil War.