The Instigator
Sagey
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Truth_seeker
Con (against)
Winning
7 Points

Is The Old Testament God A Malevolent Megalomaniac [ Severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder ]???

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after 1 vote the winner is...
Truth_seeker
Voting Style: Open Point System: Select Winner
Started: 8/8/2014 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,888 times Debate No: 60177
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (19)
Votes (1)

 

Sagey

Pro

This Debate is concerning the Old Testament God's Mental Health.

My Theory is that God is a figment of Abraham's Imagination.
Abraham was very likely a pastoralist or a fringe dweller.
As Anthropology has developed a concept that Monotheism comes from War Like fringe dwellers. These spend days caring for flocks of animals and are continually on the lookout for poachers and fighting off wolves and neighboring tribes after their stock and grazing land.
Thus Monotheism is very war like and as in the Old Testament's case, Bloodthirsty and Violent.

While Polytheism is more likely from Hunter Gatherers and Forest/Jungle dwellers where competition between tribes for food is less of a problem.
Thus Polytheistic religions are essentially more peaceful as there is more sharing between tribes and better communication.

The Old Testament is full of Barbarianism, Genocide, Murder and Wars.
This is typical of Monotheistic cultures.

While Hindu and Taoist literature is far more light hearted and peaceful.
So are many other hunter-gather religions such as those of the American natives and Australian Aboriginal, where tribes do not talk of genocide and large scale wars as in the Old Testament.

While the exploits of Moses in the Old Testament appear to by Myth.
The God of the Old Testament admits that it is a Narcissistic Megalomaniac in various passages, especially when it supposedly calls itself a Jealous God.

Exodus 20:5
"You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your Godam a jealousGod, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,"

Exodus 34:14
"for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealousGod"

These passages alone are admissions of Narcissistic Megalomania.

Definition: Megalomania / Narcissistic Personality Disorder:
"Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism."
Source: http://www.mayoclinic.org...

The First 3 Commandments is also Evidence of God's Megalomania:
  1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Though there is much more in the Old Testament that indicate a Megalomaniac God.
Those I have cited so far I believe are adequate to claim that the God of the Old Testament and possibly Abraham himself, suffered severe Paranoia and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

As in novels, people often create leading characters that have similar issues to themselves.

No acceptance required.
Con will need to mount their case in this round.

Best Of Luck To Whoever Is Willing To Take This Debate/Discussion!!

Truth_seeker

Con

my opponent provided no evidence to support his claims, therefore he is only making a hypothesis.

I disagree with my opponent statement that monotheism is barbaric, in fact I argue that polytheism is worse. Child sacrifice was made to please the pagan gods (1). Human sacrifice also took placed (2). Pagans also practiced self-mutilation (3). Assyria and Babylon were polytheistic and war-mongering, so this clearly shows that polytheism is worse than monotheism since monotheism prohibits these things.

"While Polytheism is more likely from Hunter Gatherers and Forest/Jungle dwellers where competition between tribes for food is less of a problem.
Thus Polytheistic religions are essentially more peaceful as there is more sharing between tribes and better communication. "

No evidence to support this, ancient peoples themselves came from Hunter-Gathering (4).

"While the exploits of Moses in the Old Testament appear to by Myth."

Appearing to be myth is entirely subjective and backed up with no evidence.

You point out

Exodus 34:14
"for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God"

He wants the adoration of his people alone which is characteristic of a relationship between two parties. Are you saying that those are also narcissistic? If a married man kisses another woman other than his wife, his wife has a right to be upset because he broke the marriage covenant. The same applies to God.

It's entirely my opponent's opinion that God is malevolent, megalomaniac, and narcissistic bringing in no valid psychological analysis to support his ideas.

Sources:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org...

2. http://en.wikipedia.org...

3. 1 Kings 18:28

4. http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Sagey

Pro

Thanks Con for your thoughtful argument:

Though I do disagree with your opening comment:
"my opponent provided no evidence to support his claims, therefore he is only making a hypothesis."

I did indeed give a basis for such Claims.


The first 3 Commandments are not the Commandments a Sane God would offer.
They are the commandments a severe Megalomaniac would produce.

Commandment 1: " Thou shalt have no other gods before me"
This is a sign of Irrational Jealousy which is a symptom of Megalomania.
If there are no other Gods, then it is also Stupidly Irrational, since worshiping a false idol won't do them any good as nothing can come from it and the consequences are the humans own problem.
Evidently God did not let them know of his presence, so they have no real God to worship, thus that is entirely God's own fault, so God would be stupid for worrying about false idols.
Otherwise, it could mean that there are Other Gods for the Biblical God to worry about.
It is such a totally Dumb Commandment that would be so devised by somebody suffering Severe Paranoia and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

Commandment 2: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

Same conclusion as for Commandment 1, obviously composed by a Paranoid Megalomaniac.
If people knew a real God existed, they would not be making graven images, as they would know of God's existence.
If people make graven images, they don't know God exists and thus it is God's own fault for not making his presence known to them via practical means. Scriptural Commands are not proof of a God's existence, it is proof of Deception only.
The line: " the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Demonstrates a severe degree of Malevolence towards those that dislike me, even I am more Benevolent than that God, as many people dislike me for my beliefs, but I never hold that against them.
I just try to understand them, which is far more Benevolent than that Omni-Malevolent dictator of a Megalomaniac God Christians, Jews and Muslims worship.

Commandment 3: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

Again we have a Commandment that could only have been proposed by a severe Megalomaniac, as names truly mean nothing.
If I wrote the word God on a piece of paper and stomped it into the ground, God could not possibly be upset, as the only thing I have damaged is a piece of paper.
If blasphemed aloud, nobody is harmed, not even the God, thus to be victimized by God for that is beyond reason.

So alone, the first 3 commandments prove my point that the author of such Commandments had to be suffering severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Megalomania), as well as being Omni-Malevolent.

Next: We have the Global Flood: Killing all people and animals on Earth over bad individuals and only letting one so call Righteous family survive.

The entire story is ludicrously Dumb and reeks of severe Narcissistic Megalomania and Omni-Malevolence.

If God was truly Omnipotent and Omniscient, It could have ridden the world of bad and even potentially bad people without harming a single good human nor creature.

If God was Omniscient: It would know every single bad/evil human and animal by name/position.
If God was Omnipotent: I could remove all of them without harming any innocent humans and animals at all.
Thus the Global Flood was ridiculously Pointless.

It killed every innocent child and even those yet to be born, so it was also an act of Genocide and Infanticide.

Con mentioned Polytheism which had many Gods, of which some the Bible god was derived from, so I agree that some of them were just as bad and also suffered extreme Megalomania.
Though their issues are no excuse for the Old Testament God to be as bad and even worse than most Polytheistic Gods from where the Bible God originated from in the first place.

The Bible condones Infanticide. In fact the Passover was a celebration of God committing infanticide of all the first born to Egyptian parents.
The Bible is full of infanticide and genocide.

Here is an excerpt from: http://www.evilbible.com...'s%20not%20pro-life.htm
Demonstrating clearly Abortion, Infanticide and Murdering of Children in the Bible:

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?

Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.

Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.

2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

"Infanticide:

1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.

Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.

Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:

Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.

Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”>


Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's tale is a deafening pronouncement of not only God suffering severe Megalomania and being Omni-Malevolent, it also demonstrates God's own severe immorality.

God created Satan to divide humanity into good and evil:
That's not the action of a moral God, that is the action of a Morally corrupt, depraved God.
Thus God is a Depraved Megalomaniac!
https://www.youtube.com...

Even the notion of Hell or burning non-believers, as well as condemning all humans for the fall of Adam, which God itself is in fault for, not Adam, is also Immoral.
A Benevolent God would not condemn people for their ancestor's activities.
A Benevolent God would not condemn anybody to an eternity of torture.

Thus the Bible God is indeed a Malevolent Megalomaniac.
The Bible proves this:

https://www.youtube.com...

I should have demonstrated my Point and Burden of Proof by now.

But, I'm certain that Con can find something I may have missed and errors in my Logic.

Thanks again Con:
Now Back to you.





Truth_seeker

Con

I would point out that once again, no psychological analysis was given nor any sources. Furthermore, my opponent lacks the credentials to conclude that God has these disorders. I don't think they'd apply to a supernatural being, but i will spare this one. Lets see why these disorders don't match God's character.

To start - Megalomania is the unrealistic belief in one's (a human being) own omnipotence and superiority. Obviously this doesn't apply to God since he is divine and really is omnipotent. Megalomania is a need to control others, however i will show that God never tried to enslave Israel.

Joshua 24:15

"if you refuse to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD."

Exodus 19:3-5

"3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, "

v. 7-8

"7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord."

This is obviously not the delusional fantasies of a person who wishes to control, but is a completely rational agreement between two parties.

Exodus 3:7-12

"7 The Lord said, “I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 9 And now the cry of the Israelites has reached me, and I have seen the way the Egyptians are oppressing them. 10 So now, go. I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt.” 11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?” 12 And God said, “I will be with you. And this will be the sign to you that it is I who have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain.”

Obviously, there is a reward and punishment system for those who obey God and his commandments based on an agreement made. This is clearly not Megalomania.

"This is a sign of Irrational Jealousy which is a symptom of Megalomania.
If there are no other Gods, then it is also Stupidly Irrational, since worshiping a false idol won't do them any good as nothing can come from it and the consequences are the humans own problem.
Evidently God did not let them know of his presence, so they have no real God to worship, thus that is entirely God's own fault, so God would be stupid for worrying about false idols.
Otherwise, it could mean that there are Other Gods for the Biblical God to worry about.
It is such a totally Dumb Commandment that would be so devised by somebody suffering Severe Paranoia and Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

The point os this commandment was for them to not suffer from delusions that mere idols are gods in themselves. It is not a characteristic of Megalomania, but rather it is to help them know the truth because God loves them. God did show him his presence as pointed out from the Scriptures above. Israel habitually fell into the sin of idolatry (Exo. 34) therefore this commandment was very important to help Israel.


"If people knew a real God existed, they would not be making graven images, as they would know of God's existence.
If people make graven images, they don't know God exists and thus it is God's own fault for not making his presence known to them via practical means. Scriptural Commands are not proof of a God's existence, it is proof of Deception only.
The line: " the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Demonstrates a severe degree of Malevolence towards those that dislike me, even I am more Benevolent than that God, as many people dislike me for my beliefs, but I never hold that against them.
I just try to understand them, which is far more Benevolent than that Omni-Malevolent dictator of a Megalomaniac God Christians, Jews and Muslims worship."

Once again, your logic doesn't follow. You claim that this is paranoid Megalomania defined by delusional fantasies of being omnipotent but talk about what Israel would do if he existed and about beliefs. Israel already knows that God exists, the matter is if they will love and worship only him and no other god in the covenant.

" the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Demonstrates a severe degree of Malevolence towards those that dislike me, even I am more Benevolent than that God, as many people dislike me for my beliefs, but I never hold that against them.
I just try to understand them, which is far more Benevolent than that Omni-Malevolent dictator of a Megalomaniac God Christians, Jews and Muslims worship."

He will bring justice on those who hate him, but you left out verses which speak of his loving-kindness. Exodus 34:7

"I lavish unfailing love to a thousand generations. I forgive iniquity, rebellion, and sin. But I do not excuse the guilty. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children and grandchildren; the entire family is affected--even children in the third and fourth generations."

This is clearly not malevolence.

"Thou shalt not take [nasa] the name of the Lord thy God in vain [sheva]; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

"Again we have a Commandment that could only have been proposed by a severe Megalomaniac, as names truly mean nothing."

Wrong, this is quoted from Holman's Bible dictionary:

"The biblical concept of naming was rooted in the ancient world's understanding that a name expressed essence. To know the name of a person was to know that person's total character and nature. Revealing character and destiny.." (1)

Clearly names were very importnat in the ancient world.

"If I wrote the word God on a piece of paper and stomped it into the ground, God could not possibly be upset, as the only thing I have damaged is a piece of paper.
If blasphemed aloud, nobody is harmed, not even the God, thus to be victimized by God for that is beyond reason."

In Hebrew, nasa means to take up and bear. Sheva or shav is falsehood (example of it's context found in Ex. 23:1). In other words, God was saying "do not represent my name (character) falsely." Clearly my opponent does not know about the ancient practices of the near east.

"Next: We have the Global Flood: Killing all people and animals on Earth over bad individuals and only letting one so call Righteous family survive.

The entire story is ludicrously Dumb and reeks of severe Narcissistic Megalomania and Omni-Malevolence."

Obviously, if God found "favor in the eyes of Noah", he clearly has empathy (something that narcisstic indivudials do not have). A narcissist is someone who cares only about themselves, God clearly is more concerned with the morals of human individuals. A narcissist has fantasies of power, love, etc. (2). God doesn't need to fantasize because he already has power, love, success, etc. As for your claim that God is evil for executing judgement, would a judge who sentences a criminal for life also narcissitic and malevolent? Your logic would then have to apply to everyone else.

The debate topic you gave was "Is The Old Testament God A Malevolent Megalomaniac [ Severe Narcissistic Personality Disorder ]???" Not whether or not he could rid the world of evil.You do not explain the relevance to that neither do you have Scriptures to show for examples. To save characters, i ignore some points.

"Though their issues are no excuse for the Old Testament God to be as bad and even worse than most Polytheistic Gods from where the Bible God originated from in the first place."

God is not evil if he forbade idolatry and human sacrifices (Deut. 18:10).

"The Bible condones Infanticide. In fact the Passover was a celebration of God committing infanticide of all the first born to Egyptian parents.
The Bible is full of infanticide and genocide."

Here is the reason.

Ezekial 18:23 "Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live."

If Egypt had only repented and let Israel go, he would've spared the infants. The responsibility and free will was on Egypt itself.

I will ignore the following Scriptures as 1) they seem to have no relevance to the discussion 2) You did not specify what kind of psychological disorder God exhibits.

"Sodom and Gomorrah and Lot's tale is a deafening pronouncement of not only God suffering severe Megalomania and being Omni-Malevolent, it also demonstrates God's own severe immorality."

Gen. 18:32

Obviously, God is not malevolent or immoral. He is showing divine mercy.

Sources:

1. http://www.studylight.org...;

2. http://psychcentral.com...;
Debate Round No. 2
Sagey

Pro

Thanks again Con for your clever insight:

Though I disagree with the line: "I would point out that once again, no psychological analysis was given nor any sources."

Since the Commandments when considered from the definition of Megalomania ( wanting and needing to be worshiped by others) is self-evident.
I am not going to treat the readers of my arguments as mindless imbeciles, they are clever enough to see that my statements are confirmed by the evidence.

They do not need to have me guide them through the intricacies of the technical parts of somebody needing others to worship them, they probably know of many megalomaniacs in their own lives, such as many of the leaders in their industry whose megalomania drove them to seek a position of leadership, so others have to serve them.

Though most people when thinking of megalomania, tend to think of Charles Manson, Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

God in the Bible makes those three seem like nice people in comparison.

Especially when you consider the Global Flood and the destruction of cities and genocide committed by God or under God's instructions.
Though I still laugh at how God cannot defeat Iron Chariots, (Judges 1:19),So God would be useless against modern tanks.

Con States: "opponent lacks the credentials to conclude that God has these disorders. I don't think they'd apply to a supernatural being, but I will spare this one. Lets see why these disorders don't match God's character. "

Rebuttal: 1: It does not take credentials to make psychological comparisons, everybody is an amateur psychologist, since I'm studying psychology and neurology, I just happen to know a little more than most, but anybody can spot a nasty megalomaniac prick of a dictator like God when they meet them. Some people begrudgingly work for such bosses.
Friedrich Nietzsche was likely the best psychologist of the last century, yet he was just categorized as a philosopher.
Many of the world's best psychologists were not qualified.

2: "I don't think they'd apply to a supernatural being",
This is application of the Special Pleading Fallacy.

Psychological Profiles Apply To Everything With Evidence Of Intellect And A Will.
You can psychologically profile animals as my studies into Animal Behavior and Behavioral Evolution demonstrate.
It's a Fallacy to assume that something cannot be psychologically profiled because it is supposedly supernatural.

The Bible God is described as intelligent and it has a will, thus it can be psychologically profiled.
Since neurology is gradually showing that God exists entirely in the minds of believers, then not only can God be so profiled, but it also adds to the profiles of those carrying a God in their brain.
Since God is a subjective being that is different to every individual containing a God in their brain, then since some estimate there are 5 billion believers on Earth, there are thus 5 billion Gods, some of them are Malevolent and some are Benevolent.
If they strictly believe in the God of the Old Testament and Revelations, then their mind God is Malevolent.
Con also sites Exodus: But those are inconsequential, since the hardships and hurt the people felt were caused by God's Malevolence in Genesis 3: So they are non sequitur.

"Symptoms of Megalomania:

The list of signs and symptoms mentioned in various sources for Megalomania includes the 4 symptoms listed below:
  1. Delusional belief of superiority Delusions of greatness delusions about one's own power
  2. Delusions about one's own importance"


Source:
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com...
Definition of Malevolent:

"ma·lev·o·lentadjective\mə-G2;le-və-lənt\: having or showing a desire to cause harm to another person

Full Definition of MALEVOLENT
1: having, showing, or arising from intense often vicious ill will,spite, or hatred

2: Productive of harm or evil"


God produced Satan, which fits the definition of A Malevolent Act (2 above).


The first 3 commandments alone fit the symptoms of Megalomania.
The statement that God will persecute people for worshiping another God and also take it out on their descendants who are truly innocent out of Jealous Spite, fits the definition of Malevolent.
Thus I have entirely proven that God is a Malevolent Megalomaniac.

No psychology qualification required, it is entirely obvious to anybody who can read and has an IQ over 100.

The myth of Original Sin, where God imposes evil on all descendants of Adam out of Spite, confirms the definition of Malevolent.
You cannot escape the Fact that the Bible God is entirely Malevolent in the Deeds it performs throughout the Bible, in particular the Old Testament and again in the Book of Revelations, where it again tortures and massacres millions out of spitefulness..

e.g. The casting of individuals into eternal lakes of fire for non-belief (a misdemeanor):

Old Testament Malevolence: From Genesis Chapter 3 (KJV):
"14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Every line is Malevolent, because:
1: God created the serpent, (Satan didn't appear until Chronicles) as God created everything in the Garden including the Serpent and the Tree of Life.
2: God did not create Adam as perfect, because if Adam was perfect, he wouldn't defy any orders from God and Eve also had to be perfect as if Eve was not perfect,
then God did not create perfect beings and thus God is not Perfect.
3: If Adam was perfect then he disregarded God's instruction because he could rightfully see that God is not perfect and
thus the imperfect order came from an imperfect being, and thus again God is not perfect.
4: So God makes an Irrational decision to impose Irrational punishment on not only Adam and Eve, but all totally innocent descendants for no other reason but
God's own Spitefulness (ref. definition of Malevolent).

New Testament Malevolence: Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." King James Bible

Yet God created the Devil to be a deceiver and then tortures the one he created and all those that God got the Devil to deceive into a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity. All are malevolent deeds.

That passage alone demonstrates God's extreme Malevolence.
God is punishing all those out of God's own Spitefulness, refer to the definition of Malevolent above.

Thus I have clearly demonstrated beyond any doubt that the Bible God is extremely Malevolent and Irrational at best.

In essence: All of God's punishments of Humans stem from Spite, thus Malevolent.
Spite for denial of itself.

Spite for eating a piece of fruit against an order (my children would only be verbally addressed for such a misdemeanor) not banishment from my house and their children scorned for their lives the punishment certainly did not fit the crime, it was very much over the top (Malevolent).

Spite for accepting another God of the billions of available Gods in Spite for not worshiping and thus petting his Megalomaniac demands, the first 3 Commandments.

Demonstrating that not only is the Bible extremely Irrational, it is also, full of Murders, Massacres, Genocide and Infanticide committed and commanded by a Jealous, Spiteful Hate (malevolent), Narcissistic Dictator (Megalomaniac) God.
This is why it is impossible to get rational intelligent people who have read the Bible, like myself, to ever accept it as Rational nor consider the God as Benevolent in any way, shape nor form.

Buddhism and Confucianism, are infinitely more rational and tolerant of misdemeanors like biting a piece of fruit when told not to, these would likely just deny Adam food for a day as punishment.


Here is a link stating the Malevolence Nature of the Bible God.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com...


The new testament tale of God sending his son to be executed is an act of Malevolence towards his own son.

Some Christians think such acts are Benevolent, but they evidently have never opened a book on Rational thinking nor psychology.

When you think rationally about it, he could have just pardoned the sins he wrongly and irrationally imposed on humanity, without sacrificing any son for it, so it was a waste of a life for starters. But, again, there is no Rational thought in the Bible. It is devoid of Rationality.
From start to finish.

Thank You Con!








Truth_seeker

Con

Thanks pro, i will respond. Anything i ignore is because it's irrelevant to the discussion.

"wanting and needing to be worshiped by others" is not a desire of God. He doesn't need your worship. Acts 17:24-25

"24 The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else."

The Law was not given for God's benefit, it was given to benefit us through him. This cannot be the mind of a Megalomaniac.

"This is application of the Special Pleading Fallacy."

Wrong and i will explain why:

1. Psychological disorders are for the study of physical beings (humans and animals)
2. God is not a physical being
3. Therefore, any psychological analysis will ultimately fail to apply

This dismantles the whole purpose of the debate

"Psychological Profiles Apply To Everything With Evidence Of Intellect And A Will.
You can psychologically profile animals as my studies into Animal Behavior and Behavioral Evolution demonstrate."

God is not an animal either, so it doesn't apply.

"If they strictly believe in the God of the Old Testament and Revelations, then their mind God is Malevolent."

You haven't proven that God is malevolent.

"Con also sites Exodus: But those are inconsequential, since the hardships and hurt the people felt were caused by God's Malevolence in Genesis 3: So they are non sequitur."

Who ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Adam and Eve Gen. 3:6

"6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. "

What did God tell them? That if they ate of it, they will die. He never said that he would bring about their punishment of death.

Gen. 2:17

"17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Conclusion: humans caused their own hardships

"God produced Satan, which fits the definition of A Malevolent Act"

Once again, no Scriptures are cited to prove that true.


"The first 3 commandments alone fit the symptoms of Megalomania.
The statement that God will persecute people for worshiping another God and also take it out on their descendants who are truly innocent out of Jealous Spite, fits the definition of Malevolent."

It's only just if the people agreed to that follow that commandment as i demonstrated last round.

"You cannot escape the Fact that the Bible God is entirely Malevolent in the Deeds it performs throughout the Bible, in particular the Old Testament and again in the Book of Revelations, where it again tortures and massacres millions out of spitefulness.."

"The casting of individuals into eternal lakes of fire for non-belief "

A malevolent being would not give you the option of life, but bring death upon you. God gives you eternal life through Jesus Christ, therefore God isn't malevolent.

"Spitefulness" is a very subjective interpretation.

"1: God created the serpent, (Satan didn't appear until Chronicles) as God created everything in the Garden including the Serpent and the Tree of Life."

You have not shown from Scripture that God created the Serpent.

"2: God did not create Adam as perfect, because if Adam was perfect, he wouldn't defy any orders from God and Eve also had to be perfect as if Eve was not perfect,
then God did not create perfect beings and thus God is not Perfect."

God gave them free will and made them innocent. I argue that evil cannot exist without good and good cannot exist without evil. The Bible also never says that he made them sinless. Conclusion: God is not malevolent

"3: If Adam was perfect then he disregarded God's instruction because he could rightfully see that God is not perfect and
thus the imperfect order came from an imperfect being, and thus again God is not perfect."

Adam wasn't perfect evidenced by his sin, thereofre this doesn't apply.

"4: So God makes an Irrational decision to impose Irrational punishment on not only Adam and Eve, but all totally innocent descendants for no other reason but
God's own Spitefulness (ref. definition of Malevolent)."

God did not do that, humans did that. God also promised eternal salvation through the Messiah (Gen. 3:15).

"Yet God created the Devil to be a deceiver and then tortures the one he created and all those that God got the Devil to deceive into a lake of fire and brimstone for eternity. All are malevolent deeds."

No where does it say that he tortures them, it says he threw them there.

"That passage alone demonstrates God's extreme Malevolence.
God is punishing all those out of God's own Spitefulness, refer to the definition of Malevolent above."

Once again, the Scripture you quoted doesn't show that. In fact, God punished them because of unrighteousness.

Romans 3:5

""But," some might say, "our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn't it unfair, then, for him to punish us?" (This is merely a human point of view.)"

"The new testament tale of God sending his son to be executed is an act of Malevolence towards his own son."

God sent his son to save the world from it's sins (John 3:16), therefore it is an act of good-will towards all men.

In conclusion, you did not fulfill your burden of proof. You attempt to point out God's flaws and we've seen that they do not apply. God judges and punishes justly just as human judges do. God is wrathful towards wickedness, but is compassionate and loving, giving eternal salvation and forgiveness to all men who repent (a malevolent person rarely has any mercy). In conclusion, God is not a malevolent, megalomaniac narcistic being.
Debate Round No. 3
19 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Tooooo many voters??????

Maybe we should have a heated argument about nothing in the Comment section to get this onto the front page like LMGiG keeps doing to his debates.

:-D~
Posted by Truth_seeker 3 years ago
Truth_seeker
lol yea your going to win that debate
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
It's not only churches, it may be your boss at work that seeks to control.
Sociopaths are everywhere!
Many sociopaths are megalomaniacs who want you to worship them, so they rig the workplace so everybody can be controlled.
I had a boss like that once.
Though he didn't get his way and had a nervous breakdown when he realized nobody wanted to work for him and even the employment agencies stopped sending people to work for him, because he tried to indoctrinate them into being his sycophants.
Last I heard from his wife, who now runs the business, is that he is on medication for being suicidal.
Posted by Truth_seeker 3 years ago
Truth_seeker
I think alot of churches do seek to control, so i don't advocate for that. They probably aren't even trained psychologists/doctors, etc. so i'm not going to play devil's advocate aha.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Yeh, It's a tricky one to even go devils advocate for.
It may time out without a taker.
Then so be it.
But at least I got to type up some basics of what I'm learning, so it may help me remember it.
Posted by Truth_seeker 3 years ago
Truth_seeker
lol i'm kinda leaning towards the pro side on this one
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
I started the debate before, but it got dumped by a con who did not make an argument and thus the debate got dumped.
So I started it again and so far no takers.
http://www.debate.org...

Though it is likely a tricky topic for a Con.
It would be interesting from my point of view as to how somebody would tackle such a debate as Con.
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
I'd have to wait until work dies down a bit.
The money is great, but I'm now time poor.
I like my leisure time more than money, but money is a necessary item in the modern world.
I cannot study nor debate as much as I want to.
I use debates to help me remember my studies, as by explaining stuff to others, is a good way of reinforcing what I have just learned.
Though our debate had only a little to do with my study, it was just a break from it, which I need sometimes as well.
Though the B.I.T.E debate I started, that has no contender at the moment is in line with some of my current psychology studies.
Such as Aversion Reflexes/Conditioning.
Posted by Truth_seeker 3 years ago
Truth_seeker
lol we can do a rematch if you want
Posted by Sagey 3 years ago
Sagey
Thanks TS for an interesting debate, I think I kept repeating myself a little.
Sort of a tautology of a debate.
Though I covered too much in my first statement so left little to add in the next statements.
I was a bit lazy on the research side, as work poured in, so I was trying to work and update my arguments at the same time.
It's a wonder I didn't end up quoting my work updates into my debate updates.
That would have had some voters (if we get any?) scratching their heads. LOL

It may be close if somebody/anybody bothers to vote these days.
My last debate only scored 1 vote, so it was pitiful, but at least the result was close.
:-D~
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by mishapqueen 3 years ago
mishapqueen
SageyTruth_seeker
Who won the debate:-Vote Checkmark
Reasons for voting decision: Pro did not really prove that God was malevolent, he just threw out verses and expected us to draw our own conclusions. Also, Con made the excellent point that psychology only applies to humans. God is not a human, and so that point wins him the round. Good job to both of you!