The Instigator
NJDEMOCRAT28
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
abdelqah11
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is a student's score on the SAT or ACT good enough to predict their future success?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/3/2012 Category: Education
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,211 times Debate No: 21691
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (0)

 

NJDEMOCRAT28

Con

This is going to be a five round debate which the first round will be classified as the acceptance round. For the purpose of this debate I will be argue against the topic. Please if you accept this debate you must argue the pro to a students score on the SAT and ACT good enough to predict their future success. Please use a minimum of 3000 characters in this debate. You may cite your sources to back up your argument. Good Luck in the debate and may the best person with the best reason and or argument win.
abdelqah11

Pro

I will accept this debate i will let you begin to see how your arguement goes.
Debate Round No. 1
NJDEMOCRAT28

Con

SAT and ACT only score math and English skills, and even the skills tested have no relevance to the real world. There are a lot of things that go into a good student, and the biggest items, motivation and time-management, are skills that are not graded by any test. Also, there have probably been studies that have shown that a student's future success and their test scores have no correlation. Some students simply do not test well, but are still quite intelligent. Also, the content on these tests are typically high level math, something many students many never use depending on their chosen career. It's not practical to have students learn complex math just to pass a test and never use it again. And I ask the question what do lawyers need to know math for there main focus is on law and not math so testing them on that I believe is not a relevant thing to do. Also after doing some basic research on the SAT and the ACT they both clearly measure general knowledge, logic, general mathematics and language aptitude. They do not, however, measure a student's study habits and work ethic. Much of success in college and later in the work force is dependent on work and study ethics. Many colleges, notably some liberal arts school in New England, have come to see that that these tests are not a good measure of success and have stopped requiring them for admission. A student's high school performance is a much better predictor of later success. A good college student is likely a student who consistently took challenging courses in high school and performed well. The more that colleges and universities continue to do this they are not giving the average typical student the chance to show there talent. A standardized test is something that is not going to show the colleges the real deal from the student. If I was a admissions counselor I would look more at the students personal statement and the interview a test only says that the student is academically set to go to college. So you can have a smart student that is academically doing well in all his or her classes in high school and then go take a test on his or her bad day and not do as well as they thought and that one test is going to decide whether they get in to the college of there choice. I think that is absurd and that the colleges need to change there criteria and further allow students to be students and not try and steer them into only thinking that they will never fail anything.
abdelqah11

Pro

I will talk about your arguements in parts.
1-The first thing that i will argue is that the reason math and english are the only things tested for is because all other furture careers and even simple jobs now and even college class all include some type of math and english. For intanse a lawyer as you said does not need math but when he is in a case defending an acused murderer and they asked for an allabi or even the what he did that day the logic course that is test in math can help us understand which statements are true and which are false and they use numbers for the time and date so having a backround in math is useful for anyone. Also outside his job he needs to buy thing he will need to know how to calculate his spendings. lastly he would need some math to find out how much people owe him after each job he takes. I agree that at some points its complex but don't you think the harder the roblem the more effort someone will put into it to solve it and that concept in itself helps many. English on the other hand is used everywhere.
2-I agree some students are smart and some aren't but I don't think that it is fair that both students end up having the same future because there wasn't a test to seperate ranks. The SAT/ACT are test that destinguish students who are smart from thse who aren't and give everyone a fair and equal chance to determine what they will study. As for the student who are bad at exams there are many options for them because they would show that they are really smart at some college by keeping there GPA high and distinguishing themselves from those who don't study at all. Now you said that it doesn't show there work ethics but i will disagree. First the amount of time some one puts to study for this exam is alot and i can say it is almost equivilent to someone who is working. The work ethics part is how well a student uses that time and how much knowledge does he or she gain. If a students study habits are good then we can fairly asume that he will do good in the exam compared to those who don't even try to study. Since much of the college success is dependent on work and study ethics don't you agree that the SAT/ACT prepared the students well and gave them the knowledge of what to expect in college. Since his profomance has met his expectations of college can we not say that his success is currently on the run and will even be more astounding in the future. The average typical student has a chance to show his talent by working hard if he is serious about his future. If I took the SAT and did not do so well I can still get into college and expect the worst since I got an understanding of what it might be through the SAT so I would better prepare myself for college and show off my talent. Now if a student took it and didn't well and just gave up we can already asume that he didn't have that feeling of improving and preparing himself so he can prove how good he really is. Smart or dum if a student doesn't try he won't get any where and success doesn't come to those to don't seek it. So the SAT can be seen as a gate toward a successful future only to those who seek it.
Debate Round No. 2
NJDEMOCRAT28

Con

Great rebuttal but I am going to disagree with a few things you said the first thing you said was that SAT's and ACT's are to determine whether someone is smarter or not. That is a problem because when you are in high school going into college or even college you are not suppose to be smarter than anyone else there. College is a learning process and it should not determine the level of a persons smartness but the level of ones ability to apply themselves to the material being covered so one may have a clear understanding of the class and or material. Also I think that there is a bias in these exams because students that go to top of the line high schools will have the more unto date information and textbooks that will teach them the material as well as tutors and the schools that don't have the funds will not be able to provide its students with the necessary help that one needs to pass the SAT's or the ACT's I will provide you with an example Wayne, New Jersey school system verses Newark Public School system you know and I know that there is a big difference in there school systems one town has funds to provide the necessary help to its students and the other does not and has to rely on the state to provide the funds to help educate its students. I find it a major problem when college set a standard entrance in order to get into there institution. I also look at it as when colleges do that. It permits them from gaining the number of students that they are looking for in there enrollment. Again standardized test is not designed or suppose to measure one ability to succeed in the future. College is suppose to before for everyone and anyone that wants to learn and further there knowledge in a particular field. I noticed that everything in college and other parts of education is being based on a score and not ones ability to retain the information and use it in there daily life duities. So I say again that while a test can show academic and intellectual knowledge, in and of itself, it demonstrates primarily one skill: The ability to take tests. In the real world, and even in college, success requires the ability to interview well and to sell one's self. It requires the discipline to put in a good day's work at whatever it is you choose to do. It requires self control and the skill to manage one's finances and avoid debt. No test can show whether a prospective student has, or is going to develop, true life skills. I was also looking at a article and it talked about race and it stated that Caucasians will tend to do better on these standardized exams than African Americans will do. It all goes back to the funding and the position or how that individual is raised some students are going to be the first to graduate high school and go off to college then later on graduate college these students are called the first generation students to graduate in the academia world and I think that a test should not determine there level of success in the future or yet alone what institution they get into, But we as people should be happy that our youth today want to succeed and further there studies and knowledge instead of letting a standardized test determine ones capability to succeed in the future. The question I raise is who are we as people or individuals to judge someone's own ability to succeed, everyone has there many different ways of doing things and a test may not be one of them to see if they are going to be successful or not.
abdelqah11

Pro

1-I'm sorry if you miss understood i clearly said that the SAT/ACT separate those who study and work hard than those who don't. Also it is possible for people to be smarter than others in the same field but everyone has a special skill in a certain major that makes them smarter than others. In college it is to learn which field we are good in and are passionate about. Regardless this really has nothing to do with SAT/ACT.
2-I don't know what the funding has to do with the SAT/ACT because everyone no matter where they are if they promote themselves to the thought that we don't get funded so its logical for me to fail is wrong. If they truly want to prove themselves even in these condition we can see that they will be in the top and thanks to the SAT they will be able to get scholarships to go to college. An example would be a female lawyer that came in the first year convocation she is from Newark and she was able to study and show her potential she got through the SAT good/or bad mark doesn't matter(as i mentioned before even though you do bad because you are bad at exams if you still have the spark of proving yourself then you should eventually get where you want to be in college) pass through college and now is the top lawyer in her law firm. I don't think exams a made to have bias because depending where you are there will always be problems. If you live in Newark then it only logical that the people won't be able to supply the city with funds like Wayne. Another thing is if that still makes you think the exams are bias. People from the poor areas like Newark get funded by federal government more than some poor guy from Paterson. Also if think about it in that way they still give a chance to those from Newark to go to college and it all depends on the person what they are going to do. So again the SAT/ACT only separates those who want to excel from those who don't try to.
3- I like that you agree with me that these test are to test student to succeed in the future and i also am glad you said that college are for people who want to learn which again proves my point that the SAT separates those who want to learn from those who don't. Again its true that colleges look at the score but it doesn't mean that those who don't score can't get into college it only means when they get into college they have to try much harder to show there talent. No one will question how one acts or applies knowledge in his daily life but they will question the results of his actions, which again leads back to my previous argument that the SAT is the results of your effort a person puts into studying in that persons daily life and studying to gain knowledge is duty. This statement breaks down the only skill of these tests you mentioned before "it demonstrates primarily one skill: The ability to take tests." The reason for that is you neglect all the work done to even take this test. The ability to study, the way you ask questions for something you don't understand, the ability to organize your time, and many more that i don't have time to explain. So if people only wanted to know how to take a test its easy just go to the test center and sit down in a chair, hold a pencil and begin putting down your answers on a sheet of paper until the time is up. I believe every one can take exams but some depending on the amount they studied excel and do better than others. The abilities you stated also are there when the person goes to a college for an interview. This test helps every student (who want to be successful focus) on that goal rather than be distract by those who are carefree and don't want to learn. I can assure you anyone who is carefree won't get into college and carefree meaning they want to party all the time without a thought about there future, people who do not pursue knowledge. "No test can show whether a prospective student has, or is going to develop, true life skills. I was also looking at a article and it talked about race and it stated that Caucasians will tend to do better on these standardized exams than African Americans will do." this was what you said but if we don't have a standardized exam like the SAT how can we test our true like skills? anyone who is walks the path toward a successful life will do anything to achieve it and to achieve it he will study and to prove that he is more skilled than his competition he would like a test to prove that he tried and is knowledgeable and can continue toward a great future but we can't do that and we can't distinguish which students tried and which didn't without the SAT/ACT and the results of this will give college an idea of what type of student they are expecting and how this student will do. Not that students who don't do well don't have the same chance they just need to try harder. The SAT does not truly determines the chance of success it is just an exam that distinguishes students and in this way colleges can pick the students and give them opportunities aka scholarships. The same opportunities can be given to student who don't do well on the exams. An answer to your question is we can't judge anyone but ourselves if we want to be successful then we shouldn't let anything stand in our way and take down every prob;em one by one.
Debate Round No. 3
NJDEMOCRAT28

Con

First point of order even though you may think that SAT's are separating those who study and work hard at what they want to accomplish but for an average student that has problems taking test that does not make them stupid nor does it make them feel less than what they might be feeling. Also lets get one thing straight know one is smarter than anyone yes you might know more than the other person but you saying you are smarter than the next one because you took an exam does not prove how well you know your information. There is always going to be something that you don't know. So I still believe that exams should not count towards a persons acceptance into a college. Looking at today's students or high school student majority of students opt out of going into a four year school because schools believe that because you scored a 950 or higher on a exam makes you the brightest and smartest kid in that school but they are wrong there are a ton of kids that may not perform well on exams that have the ability and the talent to showcase what they know in the classroom or through a different form of testing. Second point that I would like to make and clarify on is you stated that you would disagree with me about funding, yes funding does play a major role in how students are taught I will use New Jersey as an example teachers are working with out a contract so they are not going to be doing much more stuff for students because they have been without a contract for sometime now. So school districts that have money are able to provide proper tutoring for there students to help them prepare for the exam many districts offer pre exam taking to see where there students are at in order to prepare to teach them what they need to know in order to pass or do extremely well on the exam. Low budgeted schools in which the Governor is not providing enough funds to hire the proper help that school district needs in order to improve the students ability to take exams and do well on them so they may be accepted into the college they want to be at. If you look at it most schools don't base there acceptance on SAT's and ACT's some use personal statements more than the exam because we all have bad days and it happens that one day could be test day and it can affect the your score and cause you not to get accepted. So third is yes you are right people can take exam and do well but why do you need to take an exam to prove to a school whether or not you can apply yourself. Like I also stated it should not matter what you know when you are applying because once you come through the doors of that institution you are going to eventually begin to learn more and more. I also want to through this into the mix parents always want the best for there son or daughter so when you force your child to learn something at a faster pace you are not allowing them to digest that information also if your child is always prone to coming home and doing homework all the time and not having a social life this is a problem because the only thing they know what to do is study and study. But for the parents that allow there kids to play a sport and participate in other functions they are more likely to be very well off then a student that is always head stuck in the book and I see it as those are the students that just focus more on academia when education is comprised of many components. Yes testing might be one of them but why does it need to determine someone's acceptance into a place of higher education when they are going to be tested all throughout there time in college.
abdelqah11

Pro

1- Again you are just repeating what I been explaining this entire time. I will ask you these question can an average person who sucks at taking exams redeem himself in college like any other student if he tries? If he keeps saying I suck at taking exams then doesn't bother studying is he worth passing? If a student despite this ability of being bad at exams tries to improve himself can we say that this student is worth passing?
The first question is yes if a student even after doing bad in the SAT exams tries to be better in college I can guarantee you he will be successful.
The second question hell no even I know if they are not studying they can't get higher than an F in high school , college or the SAT exams.
If a students want to improve and tries to improve and is determined to change this habit of his then hell ya he can do it. So stop repeating yourself and get back to the main argument of SAT/ACT.
2-To answer your second question can people who know more than others be known as more knowledgeable than others? if so the fact that they are more knowledgeable makes them smarter than others and don't people in the modern time refer to someone who knows more about something smart because he is a smarter at than them in that field? how about tutors if they are not smarter than me then why should I seek there help? I only want to learn from people who are smarter than me. Even though this isn't relevant to this debate I will still prove this point. People have to be smarter than others in life so others can learn from them and work hard to become smart. An example a teacher teaching his class English.
3-For the next question you have "third is yes you are right people can take exam and do well but why do you need to take an exam to prove to a school whether or not you can apply yourself." Well lets take a moment to think about this point if people didn't need to prove to schools that they can apply themselves then people who don't know how to apply themselves have the same opportunity as those who worked hard and really tried. this isn't fair because people who don't try and don't deserve to be in the same position as other students who do deserve stole these spots that could of been for the student who are well equipped to be in them. This is the same as what your trying to point out with the SAT and having the exam is a minor problem compared to the problem we would have without the exam.
4-With all do respect you keep getting off topic we are jumping from studying one exam to many other topics I will prove you wrong in this point too. There are people in this world that work all the time to support themselves and don't have time for anything except to study and work and that is there business we have no right to say that someone studies too much and one reason would be they might enjoy the feeling of success and want it. another is that those who study and are successful have a great social life in the future. Even now I have friends who enjoy themselves at work and school and these are social environments so everyone has a social life no matter how we look at it. When you start an argument please stay under topic other wise the minute you go off topic you lose.
Debate Round No. 4
NJDEMOCRAT28

Con

To address your first argument. Taking exams tests your ability to take exams, not you mastery of a skill. Realistically speaking the amount of times where you will be faced with a situation where you have to make a quick decision for which you prepared through rote learning are very limited. Most work environments you will have to find the relevant information for making your decisions, therefore since college offers the environment to master skills through experience rather than rote learning. A student that does poorly on an SAT /ACT can do well in there selected major.
To address your second argument. Intelligence itself is not a measurement of success. All the knowledge in the world is meaningless unless it can be applied to some human condition. Therefore those individuals that can be labeled as successful or valuable to society are those that are most efficient at applying knowledge. Therefore an exam such as the SAT's are not a good measure for predicting future success since they do not measure your abilities to apply knowledge to human conditions
Your third argument can easily be refuted by simple statistical significance; your performance throughout high school reveals much more information about your overall skills than an exam taken at one point in time.
To close my argument the SAT's and ACT's test a very limited skill-set. Although Math, English and Writing are necessary to be efficient in a work environment mastering them does not prohibit you from becoming an important and efficient member to society. For example a singer, a song writer, a performer, an athlete, a construction worker, a farmer, a truck driver, etc. These professions are undeniably valued by society, but high scores on the SAT's / ACT's cannot predict your ability to succeed in them.
Finally I would like to state that my argument was the best because I provided you with concrete information on why SAT's and ACT's should not be a factor in determining someone's success in the future. As I stated before, SAT's and ACT's do not make the success of a person in the future. It is still impossible to continue to base scores from an exam that is only taken once in your life that really is not going to serve you any justification in the end because when you enter college you still have a lot of other exams that you will take that will further test your ability to know the information that is covered and furthermore as your prepare to go into your major you will have the ability to put forth all that knowledge that you learned and showcase it but it does not have to always be in the form of an exam, such as the SAT's and or the ACT'S. I hope that you can clearly see my reasoning on why I am against your thought or reasoning of, a student's score on the SAT or ACT being good enough to predict their future success? Thank you again for taking the time to voice you pros and reason on why you believe that it should be. Well the only thing to do now is wait to see who is going to win this debate.
abdelqah11

Pro

Even though again you go off topic I will still defend my previous statements with logic.
I agree with your point about my argument but you are forgetting you can't take a test without information. if a test was only test us on how we take it then I don't think people really need to study because they aren't being tested on there knowledge. So for this reason tests test our ability to learn and study. We apply what we learned and studied on these tests to show people that we have knowledge.
As for the second argument without any type of intelligence there is no possibility of success. A mechanic who has no knowledge about cars will never be successful. If some can apply something in their lives that means they have knowledge therefore with knowledge comes there intelligence.
Again concluding everything I said, the SAT/ACT does not determine our future just a test to put us in college and separates those who study from those who don't and it also enlightens us on what college will feel like.
1-The con did not explain himself clearly even though he thought he did.
2-The con kept going off topic and did not stay consistent with his initial argument
3-the con agreed with most of what I mention and did not make a strong comeback nor give precise examples of his view.
4- My points were only based on common sense and reasoning. My arguments were unquestioned and even though my opponent went off topic.
I enjoyed this debate but I will have to say that I urge my opponent to stay under topic and explain more so I can understand your point. I believe that my argument was stronger due to the fact I pointed out every flaw in the cons arguments and stated my reasons clearly. Used examples to further increase understanding to the con. lastly I debated everything and connected it back to the main topic. Thank you I hope you all vote for who every gave the strongest debate.
Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by 13mshuster 4 years ago
13mshuster
I feel that the SATS and the ACTS do not predict a student's future success because the tests just show colleges how much they know and understand the material. A person could do terrible on the tests but have a great GPA so many factors could contribute to the test scores.
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