The Instigator
american5
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
lovelife
Pro (for)
Winning
27 Points

Is abortion right

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
lovelife
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/14/2011 Category: News
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,785 times Debate No: 15928
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (17)
Votes (6)

 

american5

Con

I believe abortion is wrong because abortion is not some women got raped or something and doesn't want to be reminded of it for nine months most of the time it is some one got pregnant and did not want to be so they kill the child for their mistake I wish a good debate to my opponent but I just don't see how you can agree with killing a child and taking it from its life just because the parents don't want it they are not disposable and abortion is not birth control and even if a women is raped its still going to effect her for the rest of her life anyway so why make the child suffer for a adults mistake and if the parents don't want it put it up for adoption abortion is pointless and unnecessary why take life from an unborn child for nothing.
lovelife

Pro

I will accept this debate, but I feel I must add definitions first

For the purpose of this debate, but without using outside resources for definitions, we will define:
abortion
The unnatural end of a pregnancy between 0-28 weeks of the pregnancy.

Mistake
Something one did not mean to do, or make happen.

Responsibility
Doing what will ultimately help everyone, or most of those involved, even if the choice is hard to make.

Wrong
immoral, unethical, the incorrect thing to do.

Right
The opposite of wrong; responsible

Miscarriage
The spontaneous end of a pregnancy, especially naturally occurring within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Now to answer my opponent's questions.

"I believe abortion is wrong because abortion is not some women got raped or something and doesn't want to be reminded of it for nine months."

I would like to know how my opponent comes to that conclusion.
"In 1996, more than two-thirds of rape/sexual assaults committed in the nation remained unreported."
(Ringel, C. (1997, November). Criminal Victimization in 1996, Changes 1995-1996 with Trends 1993-1996, NCJ-165812, p.3. Washington, DC: Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice.)
only 1/3 people that are raped even report it. And that can be for many reasons, such as having your life threatened, the sheer embarrassment, the way people think of you, having to re-live being violated, often in front of many people, and often more than once, for months on end while the trial rages on, and many other factors.


"most of the time it is some one got pregnant and did not want to be so they kill the child for their mistake"

If someone got pregnant and did not want to be pregnant, then why force it upon them if no one would actually be harmed by ending the pregnancy?

Sex is usually not a mistake, even for people who do not wish to raise a child. Sex is one of the greatest feelings, and has many benefits from fun excercize, to stress relief. It makes your body, skin, and hair healthier. It helps with depression, pain, and even prostate cancer, as well as helping to fight aging, and healing faster and better.
[1]

Of course even using protection, such as the pill, and a condom, there is a risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including pregnancy, but as is with adverse effect, they for the most part can be treated, or else are being researched in how to treat it.
If you do not believe that someone should have to live with herpes just because they had sex and the condom broke, or whatever else happened, then why would you think the same thing about pregnancy, when alternatives are available?

"I wish a good debate to my opponent"

As do I.


"but I just don't see how you can agree with killing a child and taking it from its life just because the parents don't want it"

If the parents don't want it, how do you expect it to live a good life if it were allowed to develop and be born?
What if the parents are too poor, too young, too old, or too sick?


"they are not disposable and abortion is not birth control"
Does it really matter? There is a huge problem with lack of jobs, homelessness, food to person ratio, etc.


"and even if a women is raped its still going to effect her for the rest of her life anyway"

So, does that make it alright for a child to be born and know that either
1) Its very existence hurts it's mother daily, and it's father is a complete monster, or
2) knowing that it is so uncared for that it was put into foster care/adoption so that the mother didn't have to deal with it every day.

Did you know that there is a clear alignment between children in foster care, and adoption and likelihood of depression and suicide?

Which is worse, a parent looking into the facts, and deciding that the least cruel way to deal with it, is to stop it from ever suffering, as in, 'killing' it before it can feel, or forcing someone to go through years of being hurt, alone, betrayed, potentially (likely) abused, before likely killing themselves?

To me the former seems responsible, and the latter seems cruel and unethical, wrong and immoral. Which points to Abortion is sometimes the right choice, and often is the right choice for those that choose it.

"so why make the child suffer"

I do not know, why don't you try to answer that?


"for a adults mistake and if the parents don't want it put it up for adoption"

Some potential parents wouldn't want to put their children up for adoption, for the reasons I listed above.


"abortion is pointless and unnecessary"

Only if you happen to want a child, can afford to care for it, and are with someone that can help you to raise the child in the best possible way, with no health problems, nor outside financial/time responsibilities.

"why take life from an unborn child for nothing."

Although you might think its for "nothing" in the end, if you think about it, it can be quite beneficial for everyone involved, including the child.

I understand that this is a very controversial topic and I hope that we can both remain civil, and learn from this debate.

I wish my opponent luck in round 2.

[1] http://webecoist.com...

Debate Round No. 1
american5

Con

I agree about being civil. Now I would like to continue this debate by saying not all children put in foster care have terrible lives, and still sending them to a foster home is not the only option there are some groups that will help you find a parent for your child. I have two friends that are twins that were adopted there parents had them young but went to the group and found a nice family to take them in that did not have kids, and now they own one of the biggest swimming holes in the area, make tons of money every summer, they have a great life and are normal kids. They actually have a better life then some kids I know and they live with both of biological parents they are not divorced. Now about you saying if a condom breaks there can be consequences like pregnancy and stds and how I would not wish for someone to have to keep an std if they did not have to your right I would not wish that on someone yet a child is not a disease it lives it breathes it has a heartbeat and if the parents are too poor or young or old or sick there are answers for all of those too young they should not be sleeping together too sick they should not be pregnant be cause they should not be having sex and too poor or old adoption. once again I know a girl whose father raped her mom and she is fine she lives a normal life even though her father is in prison and she has no problem living this life her mother even said that one of the few good things that happened that day was she became pregnant with her daughter. She dose not feel unloved or an outcast and neither of my 3 friends are suffering even though they live in a small town with non biological or one parents. Plus with abortion being only wrong if you are not blessed enough to be set up in a good environment to raise it in that's wrong I'm a bastard child my self and I mean that in the since of my parents were not married when they had me but my mom was 19 and my dad was 21 and had just got out of the service neither had a job and they both came from a long line of alcoholics who made very little money most doing hard labor. They had no car no house and no income yet they raised me to be a strong young athlete who next spring is going to Paris and plans on being a general and they did not just do that for me but for my two younger brothers little sister and is going to do it for my unborn sibling/s who are on the way. My next point I mean with all do respect for I don't want this becoming heated but have you ever been affected by abortion because I have and still have yet to see regret that exceeds that point and if you have not I don't think this is a good topic for you to debate about.
lovelife

Pro

I thank my opponent once again for this debate, and hope everything clears up in the last round.

Now it seems like my opponent is forgetting several points that I have made in my first round, which I will point out later in this round, first I will refute con's arguments.

" I would like to continue this debate by saying not all children put in foster care have terrible lives, and still sending them to a foster home is not the only option"

I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I did not say that foster care and adoption were the only choices, but rather quite contrary. If no health risk is presented by remaining pregnant, and the pregnant woman is not heavily affected by tocophobia, then giving the child to family you know that can afford it, raise it, want it, and can be there for it, is the better choice, but not everybody knows someone like that.


"there are some groups that will help you find a parent for your child."

I am aware of such things, however, sometimes it is not feasible, and nor is it always the best choice. Keep in mind, I said abortion can sometimes be the right choice, not that is all of the time. Parents are allowed to physically punish their children, so that their life later on will be better. Parents are also allowed to give thir children shots, or have them circumcised, either do to religious reasons, or personal preference.
Why would they not be allowed to choose if their life is likely to be good before they can feel, so that they can eliminate the suffering early on?
Every situation is different, and as such the laws should not try to intervene.

"I have two friends that....divorced." (shortened for charcter limits)

Not to seem rude, but anecdotal evidence, without sources, nor statistics, has very little relevance in a formal debate. Now as I said before, most parents that choose to have an abortion have no other feasible option. Now I will use anecdotal evidence against yours.
One of my best friends has been in 17 different foster homes, his mother is a drug addict, and his father is likely dead. His uncle beat him, and his grandparents would rather he dies than live with them. I stayed at a shelter for a little while, because my mom didn't want me. He was living there too. He was a nice kid, but got kicked out because he wasn't asleep by 9. He is 14-15, and homeless now, and my mom wouldn't take him in because he's male and within 5 years of my age. He has nowhere to go really, and in a town that size, there aren't a lot of options. Especially after every foster family in the county has abused you and you got kicked out of the shelter. He is battling depression, and has no one to turn to. I last talked to him 2 years ago when I moved from that town.

"Now about you saying if a condom breaks....a child is not a disease it lives it breathes it has a heartbeat"

Actually, for the first three weeks of pregnancy there is no heartbeat, they do not breathe until their face hits air (which is how water birthing works, it will not breathe until the face hits air), and for the first several weeks it is no better than any other STD.
[1]

"and if the parents are too poor or young or old or sick there are answers for all of those"
Good.

"too young they should not be sleeping together"

You forget my source from the last round. Often depression, anxiety, heart problems, lack of exercise, etc, effect young people far more than older people, and since sex helps to treat such things, just not having sex is actually a negative answer, especially for young people in comitted relationships.


"too sick they should not be pregnant be cause they should not be having sex"

Again my opponent forgets source from round one, that shows that having sex imporves your help, including immune system, cancer, urniary issues, and many other health issues. And while we are talking about health, what about a woman who becomes pregnant, and during her pregnancy finds out she has AIDS, and so her unborn child does too? At this point in her unborn child cannot feel. Is it still 'wrong' to abor the child?


"and too poor or old adoption."

Which leads to more issues. Adoption is not the only, or even best choice in many cases. Giving birth at an old age, has adverse effects on both the parent, and the child, mostly all physcal, but also mental and emotional since old parents will not live as long as younger parents in most cases.


"once again I know a girl...... is going to do it for my unborn sibling/s who are on the way."

Again, pure anecodal evidence usually is not good to use in a debate.
I know some friends that have killed themselves due to poor family life, because of young, or poor parents. I know several more that constnatly work to provide for their family because of the bad socio-economic situation, and I even know someone, whose mother sold her 9 year old sister as a prostiute to help provide for the family. Everyone thought bad abou those two girls because they were both pregnant before they were 15, and at least twice before they turned 17. They have been tortured at home, in school, and everywhere they go, because their poor, and because of pregnancy. Abortion in either case would have been much more beneficial, but now those six children need paid for, and it will only be a vicious cycle, especially since the mother got her daughters back, after only 2 years of them being taken.

"My next point I mean with all do respect for I don't want this becoming heated but have you ever been affected by abortion because I have and still have yet to see regret that exceeds that point and if you have not I don't think this is a good topic for you to debate about."

I have been affected bothmy natural misscaraiges, and unnatural abortions, misscaraiges, by far harm people far more. Emotionally, physically, and mentally.
My best friend's stepmother had an abnoraml pregnancy in which the fetus attached itself to her guts, rather than forming in her womb. Had it stayed for two months she would have died.
After that she was much happier and nicer.
My aunt has had 19 misscaraiges, and each one sent her into a state of pure depression.
With all that said, my personal experiences, should not matter in coming up with a logical view based facts rather than personal history.
Natural misscariages: 10-20% of women that know they are pregnant misscarry. [2]
Their success at becoming children is far from successful already. Its like banning condoms because it might prevent something that might create something that may become a child.


[1] http://www.ehd.org...
[2] http://www.sjmercymedicalgroup.org...


Debate Round No. 2
american5

Con

Still I don't think kids should be having sex they have Med's for stress and depression plus sex is not made for enjoyment or to help with problems its for reproduction between a man and a women for a child to be made and for nothing else. I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Now as for somebody not knowing someone you don't need to know someone go on line to find a group that will help you pick a family for your child before it is born, and also spanking them or giving them shots or circumcised that helps them later in life it dose not end there life, and people that have a tuff life enjoy life more when something good happens. They make excellent teachers in life they will teach you what life is like they wont sugar coat it but they will teach you to enjoy what you got until its gone. I would also like to say anecdotal evidence dose prove much statistics are great and all but they don't add in the human factor life. Your life turns out depending on what you do the effects of that and what you do to counter that effect so on and so fourth not because of statistics that are constantly changing.

True a fetus may not have a heart beat or breath yet but can you prove that it is not living and not just in a different state of life?

No I did not forget about your source from round one I just spent more time analyzing it. Sex may help but it will not stop your illness you will most likely just end up spreading it to your partner and feeling like crap later when you could save time and just take some Med's. Also yes it is still wrong to abort the child if it is going to day any way give it a chance let it live have a life if its short that makes the time more valuable and who knows maybe before the kid dies there will be a cure found its not likely but I know if in the situation I would like the chance.

True older parents don't live as long but there is always a better choice than death, and as for physical effects if you are not willing to take some pain or die for your own blood that is pathetic .with mental and emotional it will pass and even if it dose not pass some mental and emotional problems are much better than death.

As for children prostitution that is a fault of the parent and anyone else involved that the government needs to deal and most the time they do.

About miscarriages I have also been effected by them that's why I said exceed the pain not match the pain because one of my little siblings was a miscarriage.
lovelife

Pro

I thank my opponent once again for this debate, and will spend the last round refuting what has been said, and reiterating my past points.


Still I don't think kids should be having sex they have Med's for stress and depression


Most depression and stess related medications are extremely harmful for children, and icrease the risk of suicide. The only exception really is cannabis which is, for the most part, illegal in the United States, while sex is legal for everyone over the age of consent in that state. In 30 states it is 16, with eight states being set at 17, and 12 states at 18. [1]


plus sex is not made for enjoyment or to help with problems

I would like to point out many things, right here, such as how the body is made for sexual plesure, notably the female clitorus and breasts, and how many people enjoy anal, or oral sex far more than vaginal sex, regardless of their sex or orientation, which clearly shows that yes, it is for pleasure, every bit as much as a blueberry muffin is.
As for the health aspect it is noted that sex therapy has often been perscibed to people who suffer mental isses such as bi-polar or depression as well as stress, and for physical injuries as well.


"its for reproduction between a man and a women for a child to be made and for nothing else. I just wanted to get that out of the way.
"

Which is completely false. Not every sexual experience is meant to have children, which is why there are homosexuals, birth control, alternative ways of reachig sexual pleasure, which inclue pornography, oral or anal sex, "finguring", "hand jobs", stimulation of the clitorus, and many other things.
It again, is similar to food, which may be used to nurture us with what we need to live, and may be the only real way to do so, but it is by far not the only reason people eat. People tend to eat because they like it, and because some things just taste good, even if the health benefits or nutrients are low/non existant. And if people get fat from eating unhealthy things, they do not need to live like that, they can excersize, or even get liposection, which removes the issue from enjoying one's self.
Sex is natural, child birth is natural, but children are by far not the only reason people have sex, nor is it why the vast majority of people have it. Even Judaism allows for birth control (although they tend to not allow the use of condoms, unless someone has an STD)
"The primary purpose of sex is to reinforce the loving marital bond between husband and wife. The first and foremost purpose of marriage is companionship, and sexual relations play an important role. Procreation is also a reason for sex, but it is not the only reason. Sex between husband and wife is permitted (even recommended) at times when conception is impossible, such as when the woman is pregnant, after menopause, or when the woman is using a permissible form of contraception. " [2]

As far as the points about helping the child later in life, or how a short life is better than no life, I disagree.

Lets say for instance someone is very spirtualistic, and they belive that by having an abortion, they send that child's soul to a time where it can be better cared for and live a better life than the one that can be provided, or that suffering due to the mother having a very bad disease such as AIDS, can be 100% eliminated, by allowing that child's soul to go somewhere else, without having to suffer the pain, and the illness, or the torture of everyday life for that child.
It may not be what you or I believe, but it may be true, and it may be someone else's belief, and so long as it is not actually harming anyone, what right do we have to tell them they are wrong?

True a fetus may not have a heart beat or breath yet but can you prove that it is not living and not just in a different state of life?

Can you prove that it matters, if the fetus is incapable of feeling?

My opponent goes on to advocate medication, which many people find morally repugnant, such as myself. The United States have laws that require animal testing for all approved medication, so people such as myself will not support it.
Putting aside morality, it is well known that taking medication can increase risk for far worse things. Accutane is medication used to treat acne, yet its side effects include
  • Pain and swelling of the lips
  • Severe itching
  • Alopecia (hair-thinning/hair-loss/baldness)
  • Fragile and weaker skin
  • Vision problems
  • Decreased night vision (onset may be sudden)
  • Conjunctivitis (pink eye)
  • Contact lens intolerance
  • Dry mucous membranes (dry nose, lungs, bladder, anus)
  • Peeling skin on palms/soles
  • Nail changes
  • Nosebleeds
  • Photosensitivity (sensitivity to light)
  • Elevated triglycerides in the blood
  • Elevated liver enzymes (indicating liver damage)
  • Tinnitus (ringing in ears or buzzing in ears)
  • Joint pain and muscle pain
  • Back pain
  • Depression
[3]

So sex is a more natural, healthier alternative, and like any other form of medicaton, when bad things happen, yo may treat them as well. I have as of yet to see someone tell someoe else to live with liver damage just because they took lots of medication, pregnancy before t time the fetus can feel pain is no different.
Miscarriage and abortion are not the same thing at all, that being said, I'm sorry that that happened.


This is purely a tip to my opponent.
Personal experiences are not weighed as much as reliable, documented sources, because
1) it can be unproven
2) it is an issolated event that may very well be uncommon
3) it often does not weigh in person aspects such as religion, race, geographical area, gender, and sheer chance.

If I told you that my house caught on fire because a pheonix came in, set it on fire, and flew away, you would likely
1) see how likely that is to be true
2) be skeptical
3) ask for further proof
etc.
One personal experience means very little.
An example I could give is I am the oldest of 5 children. My mother smoked hthrough her pregnancy with me, but not any of the others. I am the only one without asthma. (two of the others have more serious lung damage, while I was born 100% healthy.)

Another is that my aunt would have died in a car accidenct had she been wearing a seat belt.

Although these cases can happen, that does not make them at all normal, and you will still see many people advocating for laws requiring seat belts being worn, or abti-smoking laws.
While anecondal evidence may give in a "human" factor, it must also be presented with facts, and statistics, such as "Although I am lactose intolerant, and cannot drink milk, I understand that for the maority of people, it is the way they obtain calcium. There are alternatives people may use if they dislike milk, or would like to add variety, these are what I use, and their calcuim is compared to that in milk for reference."


With all that being said, I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. I believe it is the first abortion debate I have had, since I have become pro-abortion rights.
I hope we both learned from each other.


[1] http://www.ageofconsent.us...
[2] http://www.jewfaq.org...
[3] http://www.accutanesideeffects.net...

Debate Round No. 3
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by lovelife 3 years ago
lovelife
The word "tend" tends to mean "most" or "usually" :p
Posted by awsoman 3 years ago
awsoman
thats only most of them
Posted by awsoman 3 years ago
awsoman
i agree wth lovelife except when she said "men tend to be the loudest anti-abortion people."
Posted by lovelife 3 years ago
lovelife
semantics, I say eevee
Posted by losedotexe 3 years ago
losedotexe
No, abortion is left. (political scale) :3
Posted by lovelife 3 years ago
lovelife
is about how its only the women that have to bear it most of the time. Men tend to have little/no consequences and tend to be the loudest anti-abortion people.

I know that as far as I am concerned I likely will never have an abortion, even tho both me and my lover are pro-abortion rights, and neither want children.
Rape, mother's life in danger, severe complications, etc should all be good reasons for an abortion, and the government should have no right poking in on what/why etc, unless it is the one paying for the abortion.
Posted by aishwarya.bluewine 3 years ago
aishwarya.bluewine
Yes love life, i agree with rationality u have at this age. Knowing that its hard for us to bear physical pain of pregnancy and raising the child.. what meant to say is.. SEXUALLY LIBERATED WOMEN should be more careful, that they should look deep within, the conscience and think about consequences before coming to conclusion or making actions
Women who r rational as we, invest time in the right guy at right time, result is always right. One who lack patience n discipline(promiscuous n sexually liberated women i was hinting at).. should be more careful! :)
Posted by lovelife 3 years ago
lovelife
aishwarya, men tend to like to stick women with the children, yet they try to get out of child support, or raising the child at all. How is it fair, even in a system where she has to choose between people thinking she's some monstrous murderer, or having to go through the physical pain of pregnancy, and birth, and then raise the child, or deal with giving it up, knowing she will likely never know ifhe child is happy or successful in life, or even if it had died, and the father in most cases, doesn't even know there's a kid to worry about. How the fvck is it fair, to make her deal with all of the consequences for a few mins of HARED pleasure. (and health benefits for both)
just answer me that, and I might very well change my opinion.
Posted by aishwarya.bluewine 3 years ago
aishwarya.bluewine
Its more about breach of trust. Feel some women go for the wrong partner, who lacks the initiative and faith. Its wrong investment in wrong person often blame goes to those women who lack conscience n succumb to temptation .. Few hours of pleasure (which is nothing but futile repetition)... leads to hours and years of agony!
Posted by american5 3 years ago
american5
They may not all regret it but still unless you personally have dealt with it you should not talk about something so serious
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by ReformedArsenal 3 years ago
ReformedArsenal
american5lovelifeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: This is the most scattered debate I have ever seen... arguing past each other the whole time.
Vote Placed by DylanAsdale 3 years ago
DylanAsdale
american5lovelifeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con is a liberal plant anyway.
Vote Placed by Cliff.Stamp 3 years ago
Cliff.Stamp
american5lovelifeTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Simply much better structure from Pro, Con did little aside from make assertions and appeal to emotion.
Vote Placed by Ryanconqueso 3 years ago
Ryanconqueso
american5lovelifeTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided many sources and logical explanations whereas con relied on personal "evidence" and pure hope not reality. The facts don't lie no matter how much they hurt.
Vote Placed by Ore_Ele 3 years ago
Ore_Ele
american5lovelifeTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Not really even close. Pro made a strong argument (a few logical flaws, but since Con didn't catch them, nothing big) and Con had nothing to go against them. Con's arguments were mostly stereotypes and broadbrushing fallacies.
Vote Placed by boredinclass 3 years ago
boredinclass
american5lovelifeTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: 1. Because con uses assertians and personal experience as arguments. 2. con doesn't answer pros points. 3. pro uses sources