The Instigator
Apex21
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Coveny
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Is corporal punishment a method that is appropriate for institutions to use on minors and the disab?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Coveny
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/25/2017 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 858 times Debate No: 102224
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (1)

 

Apex21

Con

Corporal punishment in schools and institutions is a disgrace to society. First of all, it is against international law to use excessive force on children. Corporal punishment is a form of child abuse. The only words in statue that separate corporal punishment and child abuse are the terms "excessive" and "extreme". This makes the border between the two an opinion and puts children at risk . Corporal punishment, also put states and the country at risk with liability . States have been sued for over $750,000 using this method and it is a dangerous threat to financial stability in states.
Coveny

Pro

Corporal punishment has mixed reviews on both its effectiveness and its support. Given this, it leads me to believe science still does not have a firm grasp on the effectiveness of corporal punishment on children. The two reasons for this in my eyes are, many of the studies that are anti-corporal punishment include blatant child abuse as part of their study to present a finding in line with their preconceived beliefs. The other reason is a growing number of people who blame everything on a lack of corporal punishment. I don"t think either is a fair assessment, and I feel like corporal punishment has its place is appropriate if used correctly. This is like guns, in the right hands they save lives, in the wrong hands we have school shootings.

If you believe corporal punishment to be against international law please link the laws to which you are referring, or withdraw the statement. Understand that the most common form of corporal punishment is open hand spankings on the butt only, and this is what I"m defending, not canning, or flogging, or anything abusive stuff you want to throw into the corporal punishment net to create a strawman. These are not the norm, or accepted action we envision when we talk about corporal punishment used on children.

Corporal punishment by its very definition, isn"t child abuse. Child abuse is illegal, corporal punishment is not, even if both can involve physical contact with a child, child abuse is maltreatment where corporal punishment from an institution is legal, regulated, and controlled or it doesn"t happen. (obviously, there will cases where someone broke the rules, or went too far, but that"s the exception, not the norm)

America was founded on freedom, we in general we trust our citizens to make the right decisions. This is true for parents and judges. The more detailed a law is however the more likely it will present a loophole through which a child abuser could wiggle free. That is the reason the wording is vague, but no one is perfect, so yes children are at risk because a judge or social worker might make the wrong call. Banning corporal punishment won"t prevent this though, most of those types of cases, come down to if they think the child is lying or not.

I"m not going to argue against the financial aspect of it, because the title of this is if it"s appropriate, and that speaks to morals not a running tally on how much it"s cost the state. I"m also not going to speak to corporal punishment on the disabled, as I"m not aware of that existing, nor would I consider it appropriate if it did.
Debate Round No. 1
Apex21

Con

Begin Counter: Yes, corporal punishment is actually ineffective. In a statement by Jim Wayne, a psychotherapist, he stated that corporal punishment was ineffective - as have many other therapists and administrators. Before I continue, I would like to clarify that I am only debating the use of corporal punishment in schools and institutions, not in the home arena.
Corporal punishment breaks international code on several accounts. First of all, it is racially unjust. African American children are three times more likely to be subject to corporal punishment. Next, it is prejudice against age. Not even criminals in our prisons are subject to corporal punishment- therefore children should not be either. For more information on it violating International rights, please visit this article: https://www.hrw.org... .

In continuing against your point, padding is the most used form of corporal punishment in schools and institutions- not spanking. And yes, corporal punishment is in fact illegal in 31 states. With that, I would like to say that just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

In most states where this legal, it is actually used on the disabled. In fact, the disabled don't even have to be children for them to "appropriately" be corporeally punished. In Kentucky, for instance, the law allows anyone to be corporeally punished under the age of 18 or mentally disabled. Hitting someone who is unable to control themselves, and is younger and weaker falls under the category of bullying in all societies ...

Concluding this round, corporal punishment is a form of bullying that harms the intellectually disabled and those of minority groups and races.
Coveny

Pro

No Corporal punishment is effective if used correctly. As previously stated I understand that there are mixed results on corporal punishment, but much of what is currently called corporal punishment is abuse. That is the reason I clarified I"m just defending spanking:

http://howtoadult.com...

Well you changed it from international law to international code, but your link is to comments made nothing more. And to go one step further and quote from your link "United Nations General Assembly resolutions do not in and of themselves constitute binding international law" So please withdraw your statement, there are no international laws against corporal punishment.

I said the most common referring to all usages, but yes in schools they use a padde. I am discussing semantics on the difference between child abuse and corporal punishment. The definition of child abuse is that it is illegal. I consider circumcision as child abuse, but that doesn"t make it so, because it"s legal to mangle a child"s genitals. Child abuse is defined by what is considered legal, none of the schools where it"s illegal use corporal punishment, because then it would be" child abuse. These are the semantics of the words we are using.

My child is disabled, and has went to schools where corporal punishment was legal and used. He was outside that system, and they never administered corporal punishment on him. I assume it happens but it"s not something that "should" happen. I"m not arguing for using corporal punishment on mentally or physically disabled children.

This is a highly emotional subject that is difficult for science to research until the terms are defined, and then research is done using those defined terms. Detractors throw abuse in the corporal punishment bucket so they can discredit the effectiveness of spankings. And as the article below indicates that makes it look like spankings are effective.

https://phys.org...

Spankings are however effective and appropriate when used correctly, but the few who just use corporal punishment to take out their anger on their children take away from the ones who are using it responsibly. Obviously, taking your anger out on your child is child abuse. By grouping controlled, regulated, and defined corrective techniques which involve physical pain with uncontrolled, unregulated, and undefined rage induced vengeance against a child which involve physical pain, people are being dishonest in their arguments against spankings" very dishonest.
Debate Round No. 2
Apex21

Con

You still have provided no proof that corporal punishment is an effective method. While yes, a study by the APA found that children responded immediately to corporal punishment, it also found that the children would be more aggressive in the future. So to corporally punish a child for displaying violent behavior or for any reason really, would be hypocritical and counterproductive-unless you wanted a child to be more aggressive. The blog you provided isn't accurate or factual whatsoever.
APA study: http://www.apa.org...

In saying that it was an international law, I admit that I misspoke. It is only implied through UNICEFs declaration and the United Nations that it is disproved. This is as discussed in the other link you provided in the last round.
Also, if you wouldn't want corporal punishment used on your own child- how could you say that you want other children to take in this pain?

If you are only defending spankings, then I encourage you take up a different debate. The reality is that spankings aren't often used in schools and institutions- they use thick wooden sticks known as paddles.

To to respond to your point that child abuse is often thrown in the bucket with corporal punishment: This is only because child abuse and corporal punishment are so coherent with each other and it is too easy to cross the line. This is especially true when trusting strangers (which in public schools parents often don't know the teachers or disciplinarians) with hitting your child.

The article never stated that spanking was more effective, it only said that people view the methods differently based upon the wording. It only says that people alter the word to make the abuse sound more acceptable. This article actually says that they never encourage hitting children, so thank you for the counter-source.

In conclusion, corporal punishment is often abusive and is used to strip self-worth out of kids.
This method is cruel, unfair, and abusive. In the U.S. public school system, thirty one percent of students are African American and/or disabled, yet together, they accounted for fifty four percent of students corporally punished. This proves that the method is unjust and discriminatory.
Not only is it cruel and disgusting, but corporal punishment has been linked to lower academic success for students. In a study by Human Rights Watch, they found that states where paddling is still legal have the lowest ACT scores. While there are other factors that contribute to this, it certainly shows us something about those states.
Thanks for a fair and respectful debate, but
C'Mon People, you are letting STRANGERS HIT YOUR KIDS WITH STICKS!!!

Use the hash tag:
#startpackingawaywhacking
Coveny

Pro


And you respond with Elizabeth Thompson Gershoff study. I’m surprised it took you this long to get to it. The study that include any form of hitting and considers it corporal punishment. No control required, hit your kid as long as you want, still corporal punishment. Regulated? Naw she didn’t need that either, hit your kid for whatever reason you want… still corporal punishment. She literally stated that she went into the research to prove that corporal punishment caused more harm than good, and guess what… she was able to “prove” it by including abuse into the study to skew the numbers. And you want to talk about accurate and factual? Really?

I’m going to provide more references supporting spanking.

by Calvin College psychology professor Marjorie Gunnoe - http://www.nydailynews.com...

Dr. Jared Pingleton is a clinical psychologist - http://time.com...

As I started this debate off with, I KNOW there are mixed reviews are corporal punishment. I KNOW you can link various studies saying how it’s ineffective, just as I can link studies stating its effectiveness. This is the reason I believe we still don’t have a firm scientific grasp on the effectiveness of corporal punishment, and I don’t think we will until corporal punishment doesn’t include uncontrolled, unregulated, and undefined patterns. Till then, we cannot get past the emotion on this topic, to get to the facts.

My child is special needs. Let me repeat that just in case you didn’t catch it… SPECIAL NEEDS. In that his needs are unusual and require special attention because he can’t understand reality like most of us can. His brain function is simply not there; he doesn’t have the capacity to understand. This means he needs to be treated differently than the average kid, and what works on the average kid will not work on him.

I will admit that corporal punishment does tend to be together with abuse. This is my focal point against your argument. Until we all agree corporal punishment doesn’t cover uncontrolled rage beatings then abuse and corporal punishment will stay hand in hand. But as I stated at the beginning of this, I’m just talking about spankings that are structured, controlled, and have set numbers.

As far as my article, I guess you missed this part “Participants in the study rated the acts after reading and responding to hypothetical scenarios in which a mom disciplined her misbehaving son. Spank rated highest for commonness, acceptability and effectiveness, while beat ranked the worst, he said.” So not a so good for you, spankings rated highest in effectiveness, but I have a couple of other sources above if you want to review them as well.

In conclusion.
Spanking is often lumped together with abuse to discredit it as an effective means of discipline on children. As this is an emotional charged topic, detractors routinely exaggerate to support their claims, but it’s not cruel, disgusting, embarrassing, or abuse if done in a controlled and effective way. This topic needs to be researched in an objective manner to find the truth of the situation, until then this country was founded on freedom, and I support the freedom to discipline children with spankings.

To take a step further, more and more we have a society which fears even the slightest misdeed, and even the weakest brush is accused as near murder. We have come to where any discomfort is view like a life altering event. The exaggeration has got to stop. We have got to become more honest, and trust our fellow man. There is a saying “It takes a community to raise a child”, and sometimes your child is a little brat that needs some discipline.

#stopthenannystate
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by TUF 1 year ago
TUF
You can submit debates to Airmax1227 the OFG head, or Blade-of-Truth the Vote czar. I am the Deputy vote Czar for the OFG as well, if you have special requests for debates that need votes you can submit them to any of these individuals. I would ask that you don't submit debates with forfeits or in general, non-quality debates (where minimal effort was put in, or where conduct was pretty bad), otherwise each debate should at least get a guaranteed vote.
Posted by TUF 1 year ago
TUF
You can submit debates to Airmax1227 the OFG head, or Blade-of-Truth the Vote czar. I am the Deputy vote Czar for the OFG as well, if you have special requests for debates that need votes you can submit them to any of these individuals. I would ask that you don't submit debates with forfeits or in general, non-quality debates (where minimal effort was put in, or where conduct was pretty bad), otherwise each debate should at least get a guaranteed vote.
Posted by TUF 1 year ago
TUF
You can submit debates to Airmax1227 the OFG head, or Blade-of-Truth the Vote czar. I am the Deputy vote Czar for the OFG as well, if you have special requests for debates that need votes you can submit them to any of these individuals. I would ask that you don't submit debates with forfeits or in general, non-quality debates (where minimal effort was put in, or where conduct was pretty bad), otherwise each debate should at least get a guaranteed vote.
Posted by TUF 1 year ago
TUF
You can submit debates to Airmax1227 the OFG head, or Blade-of-Truth the Vote czar. I am the Deputy vote Czar for the OFG as well, if you have special requests for debates that need votes you can submit them to any of these individuals. I would ask that you don't submit debates with forfeits or in general, non-quality debates (where minimal effort was put in, or where conduct was pretty bad), otherwise each debate should at least get a guaranteed vote.
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
Can't contact you because you don't accept messages. Sent you a friends invite though.

I would like to have get votes on these arguments of mine.
Modern Feminism is Not Needed in America
The Cosmic Hierarchy: "U"niverse/"G"od
Guns are not the problem

How would I go about getting that?
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
Can't contact you because you don't accept messages. Sent you a friends invite though.

I would like to have get votes on these arguments of mine.
Modern Feminism is Not Needed in America
The Cosmic Hierarchy: "U"niverse/"G"od
Guns are not the problem

How would I go about getting that?
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
Can't contact you because you don't accept messages. Sent you a friends invite though.

I would like to have get votes on these arguments of mine.
Modern Feminism is Not Needed in America
The Cosmic Hierarchy: "U"niverse/"G"od
Guns are not the problem

How would I go about getting that?
Posted by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Noted.

Happy to help.

This vote was made on behalf of the Official Voting Group. If you have debates that need votes, contact myself or Airmax1227 or any other voters you see claiming to be part of the official voting group.
Posted by Coveny 1 year ago
Coveny
Jonbonbon just a bit of nitpicking Con used Jim Wayne without a link not Pro. On that topic I think that the democratic state senator in Kentucky is who Con's actually referring to. Jim made several statements against corporal punishment as well as trying to end it, so it seems plausible, but I really didn't feel like a senator was a reputable authority on the topic so I just ignored it.

The reason for the points about legal and illegal is to contrast child abuse with corporal punishment. Con claimed that corporal punishment is child abuse I was trying to prove that the semantics of child abuse require it to be against the law, as the places where corporal punishment is used in schools is not against the law, it can therefore not be child abuse. In retrospect I didn't make my point as clear as I should have though.

Thanks for taking the time to give an indepth response. Hopefully it will help me in future debates.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Jonbonbon 1 year ago
Jonbonbon
Apex21CovenyTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD - http://www.debate.org/forums/miscellaneous/topic/100686/