The Instigator
IHaveTerribleOpinions
Pro (for)
The Contender
Harryterstegge
Con (against)

Is god cruel?

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Harryterstegge has forfeited round #3.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/1/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 454 times Debate No: 102343
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (0)

 

IHaveTerribleOpinions

Pro

I myself am an atheist, this is only a hypothetical debate and I don't want it to turn personal. If you think that you will turn this emotional, then turn away. I don't want to hear about how I'll burn in hell, or how god will punish me, I just want to debate. I don't hate god, I'm just confused about how people could worship a hypothetically cruel man.

The first round will just be an agreeing round, I want to see the challenger before we begin.

Rules:
1. Please no repeating yourself unless I skimmed over it or didn't address your point
2. If you do state a statistic or argumentative fact then please cite your source.
3. Please don't needlessly insult me.
4. Please don't make this emotional.
5. You don't have to agree with the side you're arguing for, just argue for it.

Please also understand it may take a day or two for me to respond.

Thanks!
Harryterstegge

Con

Hi there! I acknowledge that you're an atheist and that this is all hypothetical to you, so I, a young Christian, will not insult, condemn, or try to offend you in any way. From the looks of it this should be a respectful and interesting debate. A little more about me- I was born and raised in a Christian family, and we were originally fairly republican and conservative, but our views have changed to more accurately represent God's word and what Jesus taught. I am fairly well informed when it comes to the theology of other religions, but I know Christianity best. I know many intelligent atheists that I respect, and prefer to ignore the onslaught of almost fearful and borderline hateful Christians, as I believe my goodness through God and my good works will speak out to others. I am quite different from most Christians as I do believe in evidence based faith.

All that being said, God can easily be seen as cruel to people, but he is not. That is my stance, and I believe this is just an agreement round, so I'll leave it at that until round two. I look forward to your response!
Debate Round No. 1
IHaveTerribleOpinions

Pro

(Thank you for accepting my challenge! You sound like a well-rounded and educated person, I look forward to debating with you! I also respect that you believe in the new testament, as such I will only be plucking evidence from there)

1. God's Omnipotence

a. In the verse 17;13 Jesus states; "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat"

-This is implying that most people will go to hell, for the gate is much wider. Going under the guise that god is omnipotent, why would he create an entire species just to have them punished in the afterlife? It doesn't seem fair to create a species just to have them make decisions that god doesn't want them to make. It makes it sound like god is using humans as merely a source of amusement. If you can tell the future, than you shouldn't create creatures that in the foreseeable future will betray you and your morals.

b. The Devil/Lucifer

- If god were to be, as stated before, omnipotent than it would suggest that he wouldn't have made an- not only disobedient but very powerful- angel that would later on betray you. If you think about it, often times it seems as though Lucifer was used as a scapegoat as opposed to being a 'mistake.' God created humans, then after they 'sinned' he pretty much dumped the blame onto Lucifer even though he should have seen this even coming from the get-go.

2. Cruelty again his own 'children'

a. In 9:15 it is stated "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."

-If god truly loved his children, why would he sent armed angels to go kill an third of them? God is pointlessly cruel to humans, going so far as to kill not just a few but chunks of their population just to prove a point. The idea that god, clearly having a greater power than any other being, would send not only others to do his dirty work but wipe out what he describes as he children is very messed up. If god loves his children so much than why is he so insistent on killing them?

b. In the passage 11:17, it states; "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"

-When Abraham offered to give up his only son, god happily obliged. This is very wrong. If god loved his children so much how could he just let something so sadistic go down, not only allowing it but supporting it. Some may argue it's a freewill thing, but god didn't even try to discourage the idea, he simply supported it and went along with it.

(Sorry this is kinda short, I'm really busy and only had a little time to type this out)

Link(s):
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
Harryterstegge

Con

Those are all great arguments to suggest that God is cruel. In fact, it would be cruel if God had complete control over our free will. It would be sick and twisted. The fact of the matter is that he is unable to trespass our own free will. Most Christians overlook this, so it is natural that most atheists do as well. See, he created humanity with free will promised to us. Genesis 1:26 explains that we are in his image and have free will. Psalm 92:15 says that there is no unrighteousness in God, and the ways we follow may change in the New Testament, but God does not, therefore, if God promised free will, and he broke that promise, he would no longer be perfect and unchanging, because biblically promises are an eternal pact only God should make. He can't change what he says if what he says is final, in other words.

Also, omnipotent means you can physically do anything, not that you know everything. That is omniscience. He is omniscient, but in the Bible it is unclear if he is all knowing of the future or if he can only understand it. So therefore he doesn't create people knowing they will go to hell, just as he doesn't create people and make them go to hell. His perfection limits his power in that sense.

The angels, including Lucifer, were created to do God's will. It is unclear whether or not they have free will, but if they don't it is God's will for evil to exist. He could easily just not have Lucifer exist in the first place, if that is the case as people who say that God allows evil to exist are wrong. Angels have free will, similarly to us, but were loyal as they have physically met him. If the angels were not free thinking, they would literally be a extension to God and the trinity, demeaning the trinity, and demeaning God. So God can't control the angels for the same reasons he can't control us, is what can be gathered.

Now, your next point is very intriguing. I believe that is from revelations. Think about it this way- if your dog was in misery and going to die miserably, would you kill it to end its pain? In revelations, the exact metaphor applies. People become so endangered and miserable by each other's doing, it pains God to see his creation rebel and be in despair and agony. So he puts them down. Seems harsh, but in that sense it would be more cruel to let them go on.

Addressing your last point, God did that as a test of faith for Abraham and sent an angel to stop him. Also, that is from the Old Testament which does certainly have questionable accuracy in regards to story, but not in regards to God's nature.

Overall, great arguments! And don't worry about the length of your argument. It was good quality, which matters more than quantity.
Debate Round No. 2
IHaveTerribleOpinions

Pro

(Thank you for the kind words! The points you make are very good as well!)

The point of freewill is a rather confusing one when it comes to whether or not god should've given humans that power, to have freewill. Many cases in which I've heard focus on the idea that god doesn't do this or does do this because of freewill. But I must ask, if god created us, why give us freewill or rather give us the desire for it? It seems unfair to give someone freewill then punish them for expressing it. If he wants people to believe, then why not make them with that mindset as opposed to just hoping it works out? It seems as though he would want to have humans suffer if he couldn't even give them the option to express the freewill that he gave off in the first place.

Also, once again in the case of the angels if you want a being that does your bidding why not strip away freewill? It makes no sense that creatures you created suddenly create rules that you didn't even set them to have. If god created every last one of us with care and attention wouldn't that also mean that he created the entire mindset of being rebellious?

You could think of god another way, as an artist. He is the artist and he painted a picture. However, he has made marks on his own picture, in which he created himself, and gets angry at the marks as opposed to himself even though he was the one who made them to begin with. Rather than just trying to work with the marks he put there, he dumps oil onto the painting and destroys the marks, but also destroys parts of the painting purely because of his own anger. It makes no sense, the artist is being cruel to the painting he put the mistakes on in the first place. Not only did he make the marks, but he blames them as opposed to just admitted that it was his fault for making the marks in the first place.

There are also many things that god created that were purely dangerous to his own creations. Violence, anger, poison, natural disasters, famine, disease, etc. If he wanted his creations to be happy than why put so many things that would make the creation self-destructive or something else destroy it. Your dog analogy makes sense but only in the term of whether or not to put it down. It's somewhat different if you begin your entire analogy with "you shoot your dog" because that's what god did. If god didn't want the humans to start destroying and killing each other than he shouldn't have given them those desires. He made humans, he should be able to set rules for them. He is, after all, omnipotent.

As for being 'dissatisfied' with the creation of your own making is somewhat sadistic. If you were to make something, give it freewill, then insist you can't mess with that freewill, allowing it to do what they wanted, why would you punish it for the very thing you said was okay for it to do in the first place?
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
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Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Deonatus 1 year ago
Deonatus
@IHaveTerribleOpinions If you decide you want to have this debate again I would gladly take you up on it. I assure you my response would be very different than your current opponent (no offense to them, because they are doing great I would just take a different approach). I will be watching this debate closely and I hope to be able to vote on it if I can get my voting privilege in time.
Posted by Fijy 1 year ago
Fijy
There is no free will if there is a creator who makes us. If he was real, he made the majority of people intentionally not religious and he will punish them. Of course he is cruel
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
You would need a god in the first place...Otherwise you end up with cruel people..And that is impossible..
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