The Instigator
tychicus12
Pro (for)
The Contender
Vongalaxy
Con (against)

Is it possible to be protected when no one has free will

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/11/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 month ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 163 times Debate No: 105712
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

tychicus12

Pro

This is not a debate over whether or not free will exists. Free Will is presumed to not exist by both pro and con. Merely spoofing Christianity is not proving your point. I don't mind and indeed look forward to human reason based arguments. The point of the debate is that these things are being and will be debated by so-called academics and "ethicists" "on your behalf" without the public understanding what is happening. This debate is to inform and cause to think and pray those who value their soul. "Science" is already saying and has been saying there is no free will.

So what will the post-"free will" world look like politically? What will government look like? How will you and your property be protected? What will be the definition of prosperity? Instead of needing money to buy privacy and protection via government, concepts that are built on the lie of free will, how will you survive?

It is a popular argument in various forms by free willers that the concept of free will is the only possible foundation for civilization, that it allows protection for individuals by holding other individuals responsible for any law breaking; that the purpose of punishment is to discourage particular uses of an idealized free will in favor of "better uses". In short, that the mere concept of free will "saves the day" against the aggressor.

But there is no free will. God plainly shows us we must be saved and that we cannot effect this salvation ourselves. The difference between the Word of God/Jesus Christ and human speech makes plain there is no free will.

Even so-called secular science these days is proclaiming louder and louder that free will is simply an illusion and more and more people are waking up to that fact. Yet the artifices and the artifacts of the illusion remain: a notion in the minds of the public and government that "justice is impossible without free will" and that law enforcement would effectively cease if not for those concepts; that anarchy would ensue.

Yet even without free will all this time but in the illusion of it, some are protected while others have not been: some prosper while others do not. Inside or outside the illusion those who are here still move on.

God has made plain He protects us, that we are in the palm of His hand, which would make sense if we did not have free will and He was not dependent on us or other people to ensure our safety or prosperity.

So, we can be protected and have prosperity and peace both the same as before and better. True Christianity will stand as the body of Christ long after the lie of free will is gone.

I look forward to your answers.

Ecc 9:10-12 Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest.
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to the intelligent, nor yet favour to men of knowledge; but time and chance happeneth to them all. For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are taken with the snare, like them are the children of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Jeremiah 10:23,24 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. Jehovah, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Vongalaxy

Con

I don't see how "free will" protect us from anything. How will there be a "post free will" world if we never had "free will" in the first place? I am not sure if you really understand what it means that humans have no true free will. Basically the brain is just chemical reactions and there is no randomness in chemical reactions. However, our brains are advanced enough to have the illusion of free will, which serves us almost as well as true free will. The illusion of free will have always been with us evidenced by the countless people believing themselves to have free will since philosophy is a thing. And if you don't know what the illusion of free will is, just go into your closet and randomly pick a shirt to wear tomorrow. The illusion of free will means that what shirt you choose is already determined in a quantum level since the beginning and there isn't really a choice to be made but you would still think you made the choice. My point is that even if everyone accept that we have no free will, it wouldn't really make much drastic changes in the world.

And since there won't be a "post free will" world as you mentioned, the government would look pretty much the same as right now. Your questions implied that all those laws about protections and privacy is based on "free will" they aren't concepts built on the lie of free will in the first place; they are what we desire resulted from evolution. There are plenty of countries with little laws that grant us those rights and the fact that we have them is the result of democracy, where people have some say in what they want, and have nothing to do with free will. Prosperity will be the same as it always been because we don't desire prosperity because of free will; we desire them because it satisfy our basic instincts.

The concept of free will isn't the basis of crime and punishment. You don't need free will to fear getting arrested by cops or shunned by everyone you know. It is our simple instinct and the idea of the punishment is enough to deter most of us from committing crimes. There is no reason law enforcement would cease if not for free will. Although we have no true free will, we are still making conscious choices. I don't not commit crime because I believe in free will, I don't commit crime because the negative consequences out weight the benefits I get from committing any crime.

How does God even factor into this? We ensure our own safety because of evolutionary traits and have nothing to do with God protecting us. There is absolutely no evidence of God besides a book and unreliable human accounts that can't really be considered evidence. Why do you say God protects us? There are countless people sold as sex slaves and remain as one until they die, those abused and traumatized to the point that they can't live a normal life for the rest of their life span. Does God just laugh at them while he cures some cold and help someone get to work on time? What about those who starve to death while praying to God? Why would anyone be sent to hell according to the bible if they have no free will over their action? My point is that we don't need to be protected simply because no one has free will, we protect ourselves. And since you posted some bible quotes, I will post a couple bible verses that is for free will, pretty easy to find since bible contradicts itself all the time.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

John 7:17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Debate Round No. 1
tychicus12

Pro

Of course we are not living the same life now as a whole. What the world is living right now are the physical and emotional repercussions of the lie of human free will.

I"m guessing here? You think being deceived has no consequences for the soul or physical world? That a lie is just "air"? We are definitely not living the same life we will live when the lie of free will is gone. Soldiers and spies routinely get killed over trying to implant a lie in the enemies mind for the specific purpose of trying to physically kill them via trickery. Lies have physical and spiritual and emotional consequences.

In the lie of free will, Man is supposedly alone without any spiritual enemies and is supposedly all-powerful and thus all-blameworthy. The people here in America when Europeans arrived were also big believers in free will and "personal responsibility" yet without any understanding of the dangers of addiction to liquor. They famously wanted a "vacation in a bottle", knowing that the same thoughts in other people would be there when they got back and called getting drunk "I"m going to go out of my mind." They wanted a vacation from the same thing and for the same reason as people today who are addicted: the evil life inside the lie of free will: the 24/7 blame game based on getting somebody to say "i"ve got free will" only to immediate say "Ah Ha! So you are guilty of not using your free will correctly!" in a thousand different ways. They wanted that vacation, but thought that free will was real and they needed to escape some other mysterious "x" ,...like whatever was in "other people"..

This is modern lyrics saying the same:

Maybe I'm foolish
Maybe I'm blind
Thinking I can see through this
And see what's behind
Got no way to prove it
So maybe I'm blind
But I'm only human after all
I'm only human after all
Don't put your blame on me
Don't put your blame on me ..Rag -n- Bone Man "I"m only human"

"I negotiate between love and hate,
but it winds up just the same." Duffy, "Whole Lotta Love" (using your "free will" don"t matter..your gonna get blamed anyway.) ..in the same song.."it takes a whole lotta love to hate you the way I do"

"you pay for this and they give you that" Neil Young, "Hey Hey My My" ( no matter what you do you never get what you want )

"It don"t hurt like it used to" Billy Carrington ( a song about someone supposedly using the free will incorrectly toward him )

...a very few representative songs out of all the songs throughout history decrying the supposed improper use of their own or someone else"s free will

Minus a deception of free will, the words change and the life changes. Everyone knows this. To think to get into a philosophical echo chamber wherein glib phrases like "people are to blame for their choices" or "we live the way we do because we live in a democracy" is a joke.

You see a certain distance beyond the lie of free will but all you have to describe what you see is the old vocabulary of life inside the lie; you speak one moment about not having free will, then the next as if you do. You are using phrases from old arguments were said to be won via a particular phrase and it became the tried and true phrase that gets the emotional response some people associate with "winning", and yet doing so without a free will. You see out of the window, but you are still in the cell.

The point of the question: can we still be protected? ( ..and I should have added "from each other" but it wouldn"t fit in the text box ) after the free will lie is gone and all its constant blaming and false guilt and false forgiveness for that false guilt, is the new life will not need the thought of a preservation of a supposed personal-power-of-now for the future when people truly understand they never had that power and that they were made to see their neighbor in an evil light by what they were forced to deny existed ( other creatures that are not human that are genuine enemies) just to keep saying they have free will and blaming their neighbor for some slight or fault.

It won"t be a paradise because all people will always be deceived by lies, some more than others and justice will still be necessary and even wars and thus national defense. BUT: on the whole, we can certainly get along without what we know to be a lie and escape the evil basically everyone is saying exist and are easily proven to exist because of the lie of human free will.

We can live without the lie of free will.

I suppose in another debate we can argue over which determinism will rule the ensuing era: human speech/Belial based pagan determinism "we"re all just chemical reactions responding to what we don"t understand" ( a determinism whose purpose is simply escapism from the repercussions of the lie of human free will and its blame game by rhetorically opting out of any scenario in which blame can be assigned by appealing to "chance and randomness" ) or the Christian determinism: God has foreordained and made all that is or will be and through on-going new creation through us and others will do what he has already said will take place ( a determinism that requires active participation of those whose fate has already been determined.

God has in past times said who will believe what and why. That"s a Bible study I don"t want to have to do here. But God in every way determined that for a time, there would be a popular belief in free will and all the ensuing repercussions based on sins of former generations that He forced as well. We can live in peace and prosperity because of what God is and does in Jesus Christ.

one of the snares is the lie of free will...

Job 18:5-18 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the flame of his fire shall not shine.
The light shall become dark in his tent, and his lamp over him shall be put out.
The steps of his strength shall be straitened, and his own counsel shall cast him down.
For he is sent into the net by his own feet, and he walketh on the meshes;
The gin taketh him by the heel, the snare layeth hold on him;
A cord is hidden for him in the ground, and his trap in the way. Terrors make him afraid on every side, and chase him at his footsteps. His strength is hunger-bitten, and calamity is ready at his side. The firstborn of death devoureth the members of his body; it will devour his members. His confidence shall be rooted out of his tent, and it shall lead him away to the king of terrors: They who are none of his shall dwell in his tent; brimstone shall be showered upon his habitation: His roots shall be dried up beneath, and above shall his branch be cut off; His remembrance shall perish from the earth, and he shall have no name on the pasture-grounds. He is driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world.

Proverbs 16:4 Jehovah hath wrought everything on his own account, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, amen
Vongalaxy

Con

I am pretty sure you are the one who don't get it. We don't have free will in a cosmic scale, but to us, we might as well have free will. We absorb information and use our brain to analyze and make decisions. Us not having free will only means that no matter what we choose, our decision is already determined and can be predicted if we have enough information in the quantum level (which isn't nearly possible with our current technology). However, to us, we are still making the conscious choices. Just because we have no true free will doesn't mean we shouldn't be held accountable for our actions. The world isn't fair, some people are born with better specs while other are born inferior objectively. No one chose to be born smarter and stronger or born disabled. If you somehow are born lacking empathy and you go on a killing spree, tough luck because you still deserve to be locked up.

Your example of liquor doesn't makes sense. Them believing that they have free will isn't what made them become alcoholics. They lack free will and they weight the euphoria of alcohol over the negative consequences. Addiction has nothing to do with believing in free will. Any organisms with a brain will prefer the decision that makes their brain feel better. An alcoholic looking to quit is looking for the long term happiness of their brain. If they thought they have no free will, then they could easily say "I have no free will anyway, I am determined to drink this bottle of liquor anyway". Correlation doesn't mean causation. Just because they happen to think they have free will doesn't mean it's the cause. You can easily choose to mention a group of people who donates to charity and chances are the majority of them believe they have free will.

Would you want a murderer who killed everyone you ever love to not be blamed because he was born lacking empathy and was raised in an abusive family? He never chose to be born under those circumstances and his action of killing your whole family is determined by many factors except his free will. So what if you know he has no free will? we still lock him up and we don't care if he is unlucky.

I don't think you understand what I mean by "we live the way we do because we live in a democracy". Democracy was developed because of human traits such as empathy. I never said it has anything to do with free will. So what if we know there objectively isn't free will? People aren't lied to about free will. You need a liar first before you are lied to. People believe it themselves from their own experience. It wouldn't really matter if every scientists in the whole world proved that we don't have free will. To us, we still make our own decision, even if the decision is determined before we even made it.

To the point of your question, yes we can still be protected from each other because our societies have been functioning without free will all these time. Humans are like every other social organisms, we live together and cooperate because it is our instinct to. You are talking like we have free will all these time and we just suddenly don't. Sure the realization that we don't have free will might devastate some people and give them some existential crisis but that's about it. We don't need free will to protect ourselves against each other. Just because someone can't be blamed in a cosmic sense doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished.

You mentioned a lot about God but I am pretty sure it all comes from the same book. It is basically a book telling you to believe in itself. There is absolutely no place in this world that requires any presence of a God. And if we play your game, what is God's purpose of creating us when we have no free will? We are basically machines and do machines deserve to be sent to hell for doing what they are programmed to? I would assume you are a Christian but why do you ignore the contradictions in the bible? The concept of heaven and hell only works if we have free will. If we have no free will, there would absolutely no reason for anyone to be rewarded or punished because we are only carrying out what "God" programmed us to. You do realize that the entire bible is based on the idea of "free will" right? Did God programmed Adam and Eve to eat the fruit since the beginning so he can punish them? Did God programmed humans to be "sinful" so he can send his son to save humans from himself? The bible is a narrative mess and I am not sure why you believe so firmly in the lack of free will but still believe in the bible.
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Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by canis 1 month ago
canis
"Generally, can we build a society, or more accurately, rescue people from the lie of free will and all its evil and still have prosperity and safety as well or better than "with" the lie of free will? "..
...Well "we" are the "people".. "People" do not consider "free will" a lie.. just relative....... Protection from what ?
Posted by What50 1 month ago
What50
So is the prerequisite of the debate is that both Pro and Con agree there is no free will?
Posted by tychicus12 1 month ago
tychicus12
To essentially live in safety and prosperity without a notion of being protected "by" a notion of free will in others..not being dependent at all for the other guy, group or nation to be restrained by the thought they will be held to account or punished ( meaning that some or all of their supposed free will will be restrained ( prison ) or completely taken away ( death ) ) for misusing what they think or what a government says is their personal power. No one will care about that any longer.

I'm flexible for more specifics simply because the newness of the perspective to others who still they have free will and think the mere concept of free will is its own type of protection; that someone will not do a bad thing or a good thing because of the fear some or all of their free will will be taken away if they do.

Not trying to be overly restrictive here, but looking for ideas as part of the debate. Generally, can we build a society, or more accurately, rescue people from the lie of free will and all its evil and still have prosperity and safety as well or better than "with" the lie of free will?

More of a cooperative debate than a "me vs you" debate...

Isa 6:5 And I said, Woe unto me! for I am undone; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts.
Isa 6:6 And one of the seraphim flew unto me, and he had in his hand a glowing coal, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar;
Isa 6:7 and he made it touch my mouth, and said, Behold, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin expiated.
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? And I said, Here am I; send me.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Posted by What50 1 month ago
What50
What do you mean protected? Could you define the proposition more clearer please?
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