The Instigator
foreduca
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
distraff
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Is it racist to only date your race or only a particular race?

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Post Voting Period
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after 1 vote the winner is...
distraff
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/29/2014 Category: Society
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,615 times Debate No: 59715
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (11)
Votes (1)

 

foreduca

Pro

Firstly, I'd like for this debate to be mature. I'd prefer to have just an exchange in views, nothing hateful; nothing racist.

Secondly, the debate should be in some sense academic; that is, have at least some understanding of race, racism, it's history and how it functions in society as well as an understanding of people from a variety of backgrounds.

Format of the debate:
Round 1: Acceptance and any other pleasant exchange.
Round 2: Presentation of Arguments.
Round 3: Rebuttals
Round 4:
distraff

Con

I will use the definition I found on Google:

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races (1).

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior (1).

poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race (1).

1: http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Debate Round No. 1
foreduca

Pro

Firstly, I'd like to define what I mean by race. I think my opinion of what race is falls in line with the current scientific understanding, so I would agree with the American Association of Physical Anthropologists when they said in their 1996 statements on the Biological Aspect of race:

"Pure races, in the sense of genetically homogenous populations, do not exist in the human species today, nor is there any evidence that they have ever existed in the past."

"There is no necessary concordance between biological characteristics and culturally defined groups. On every continent, there are diverse populations that differ in language, economy, and culture. There is no national, religious, linguistic or cultural group or economic class that constitutes a race."

http://physanth.org...

Now, while I do agree that race isn't a biological reality, the social illusion that race does in fact exist is a reality we all face. As such, race and racism must therefore be recognized as a social reality. It's very much akin to some rich people thinking they are better than poor people and as result treat them contemptuously and act snobbishly. Now, however misguided these rich people might be, it doesn't change the social reality that they will continue to treat poorer people with disdain.

Since race is merely a social construction, then what exactly is it's function in our social world? Most people think that the concept of Race is different from Racism, but actually it's not. In fact race's are determined primarily on racist notions; for example, in how we determine the 'race' of 'mixed couples' offspring's. We have heard of a black child with a white parent, a black child with an Asian parent, an Asian child with a white parent, but you have never heard of an Asian child with a black parent, or a white child with an Asian parents or a white child with black parents. This is because the child's 'race' is determined by the concept of Hypodescent; that is, in societies where races are arranged in a hierarchy, if two people have children outside of their races then the child automatically adopts the race of the 'inferior parent' that's why you hear of 'black' kids with Asian in them, but not Asian kids with black in them, because Asians, in the racial hierarchy are above 'blacks'. So the concept of race itself is very racist, and this concept is normally used to justify oppression of a certain people in order to promote some economic, social or political aim; normally in the name of greed.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Most people think that so-called 'black people' are the only ones vulnerable to race and racism, but it's very important to note that there once was an 'Irish race' also known as "Negroes turned inside out" and a 'German race' in America and an 'Aryan Race' used by the Nazis. In all of these instances it was used simply as an excuse to exploit people.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Secondly, I'd like to clarify my question in light of my definition. If race is just a social construction, then, in truth there is no 'White', 'Black' or 'Asian', this is not to say that there isn't a physical difference between people; a dark skinned person obviously looks different from a light skinned one, but not anymore than a person having black hair looks different from a blonde haired one. So when I ask if "is it racist to only date your race or a particular race?" I'm not talking about objective biological differences; I'm talking about our false constructions of race.

Since I have defined my terms and have explained my question, now I shall argue why this is racist. Popular dating site OK Cupid released in 2009 a research showing dating patterns on their site and how race affected messages.
http://blog.okcupid.com...

Now the finding aren't the least shocking if you actually think about our society, what is shocking is how it properly aligns to the racial hierarchy. Some of the findings include:

-Black women write back the most.
-White men get more responses.
-White women prefer white men to the exclusion of everyone else"and Asian and Hispanic women prefer them even more exclusively.
-Men don"t write black women back.
-White guys respond less overall.
-45% of whites strongly prefer to date their own 'race' while 55% percent said no, as opposed to 20% of non whites strongly preferring their own 'race' and 80% saying no.
-Blacks get fewer responses.
-Whites respond by far the least to anyone.

Now these findings could be mere chance, but I think I have reason to not believe that it is. Firstly, race and racism has affected every aspect of modern life, it has affected our social interactions, our politics. In the past it has shaped world events, it determined what school you went to and where you lived and what type of job and university you are allowed to matriculate in, it dictated who you should and should not marry. To say that it has affected everything, including marriage, but not our modern dating patterns, seems absolutely absurd. Especially when you consider the dating stereotypes that has existed and still persists.

The effeminate Asian man, is one such idea that comes to mind, most people think it is just a keen observation, but it's actually steeped in history

"In the mid-1800s, Chinese laborers were given an emasculated image due to their physical appearance, and the fact that they did what Americans considered to be "women's work." The Chinese workers sported long braids (the "queue hairstyle" which was compulsory in China) and sometimes wore long silk gowns. Because Chinese men were seen as an economic threat to the white workforce, laws were passed that barred the Chinese from many "male" labor-intensive industries, the only jobs available to the Chinese of the time were jobs that whites deemed "women's work" (i.e., laundry, cooking, and childcare)."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

'Black men' have been hyper masculine and very hyper sexual, because of their supposed primitiveness. 'Black women' have also been depicted as masculine and hyper sexual. They tried to prove this with the exploitation of Sarah Baartman. White women were seen as promiscuous to date a 'black man' because only someone overly sexual would do that. Asian women were presented as 'the dragon lady'; deceptive seductresses in contrast to the more popular, feminine and submissive 'Geisha doll'. Now whether you believe these stereotypes or not, the fact is we have grown up in a culture that promotes them, and would therefore seem absurd to think we have never bee influenced by them.

Apart from the fact that our dating practices and beliefs about each other seems steeped in old notions of racism which I think alone proves the point, my primary argument for thinking to date only one race exclusively is racist is because it's not "just a preference." Let us assume we are all 'white' if I said that I preferred brunettes rather than blondes, this does not mean that I would not date a blonde. It simply means that I have a thing for brunettes. If however, I said that I only date brunettes, and literally reject blondes who are kind and attractive, I might be seen as a bit shallow. Suppose I went even further and said I don't think 'blondes' are attractive, period and so I don't date them. Sure I could date whoever I want, but it wouldn't mean I was being just a bit shallow and you wouldn't think it's just a preference. But this is what really drives the nail in the coffin, if race isn't a biological reality, then really you aren't preferring an objective biological difference, you are preferring people based on a social construction (race) designed only for the purpose of exploiting people; and that's racist.
distraff

Con

I would like to thank Pro for this debate and while I disagree with him, I think his opinions are well intentioned. I have not discussed race a lot and hope that this debate can help me learn more about it. I will now address Pro's arguments and discuss some of my own.

Pro did a lot of discussion of how race is a fluid concept and how it changes over time and much of it is a social construct. I actually think exclusively dating within your race can eliminate the harm "racism" does in dating.

I will be presenting two arguments. First, exclusive dating is beneficial because it is fairer for all races and benefits races that are discriminated against. Second, I will argue that it is based on the need for cultural similarity and physical similarity in a partner, not a notion of inferiority.

What is Racism?

What is racism? Is it racist to make an organization representing black people and only pick black people for leaders and discriminate against white applicants? Is it racist for an Asian restaurant to discriminate against non-Asian job applicants? For me it all comes down to motive.

If the Asian restaurant discriminates against white applicants because whites are on average worse at cooking Asian food and may not interact as well in a location with Asian language, I actually consider that ok. If a black organization thinks a black woman would make a better leader for their movement than a white man, that is not racist either because it is based on logical facts.

Racism is not just an action but also a mindset. Racism is when a certain discriminatory or harmful action results from an impression of inferiority or superiority in a certain race. I might also add that it also results from a mindset that races must be separate. So making black schools and white schools is racist. Only hiring white people as programmers is racist.

Is Racial Selectivity Racism?

It is unlikely that I will marry a black girl. This is because for most of them their culture is so different that I can easily find a white girl with a more similar culture. For the black girls I do find with strong cultural similarity, I find most of them to be not as attractive as most white girls I can date. We tend to date those who look like us. Black people tend to prefer black people, white people tend to prefer white people, and so on.

For the few black girls who do pass the last two requirements, who actually want to date me, I would have to deal with the cultural disapproval of a couple with a white man and a black woman. Unfortunately that does exist. So I would really have to like her a whole bunch to seriously date her.

So three motivations for mate selection for me and many others are:
Cultural similarity.
Appearance similarity.
Approval from others around me (weakest one).

None of these have inherent assumption that races should remain separate, or that one is inferior to another. So while these reasons do tend to separate races they not racist. If these forms of selectivity are racist then nearly everyone is a racist. At this point I would have to question whether you are using a meaningful definition of racism anymore.

Single-race dating benefits

Maybe you all have heard of the prevalence of Asian-White couples and Black-White couples. 73% of black-white couples have black husbands. For Asian-White couples it is 75% with the white husband (1). Since so many Asian women marry outside their race this creates a problem for Asian men many of whom are single. 10% of black men marry outside their race while 5% of black women do creating a gender gap within each races (2).

So interracial marriage has created gender gaps within the races that have actually been expanding over time (1). Marrying exclusively within our races would eliminate these problems. Black women and Asian men would not have the problems they do and white men would not have such an advantage.

1: http://modelminority.com...
2: http://blackdemographics.com...
3: http://blog.okcupid.com...
Debate Round No. 2
foreduca

Pro

Firstly, I'd like to point out that con hasn't really addressed my argument; 1) that racist stereotypes have shaped dating patterns in the past and the same beliefs tend to persist today reflecting these same notions which indicates how our dating has been influenced by racism. 2) That selecting a particular race is not mere preference, or even preference of a physical feature, it's a preference based on a exploitative social construct.

Before I start to address cons arguments I'd also like to make some clarifications about my position. I don't think anyone is obligated to marry or date anyone. I just feel that, had things been left up to nature and we never invented race and racism, then, our perceptions of who and who not to date would never involve what 'race' you are but would just include the relevant things; physical attraction, personality and maybe your socioeconomic background. This does not apply to any one of the imagined races this applies to everyone as individuals, and here is why. I previously mentioned how so-called 'black' men are depicted as hyper masculine, the problem is it's not just women from the 'non-black' 'races' who believe this. Everyone, including the so-called 'black' women believe this as well. Because of this, some of these 'black women' and other women from other 'races' think that it is better to date a 'true man' rather than a not so-manly 'white guy' or the more 'effeminate' Asian. It is hard to think that this is not steeped in racism be it for the 'black woman' or the other 'races'. This doesn't only happen to 'black men', 'white women' are depicted as more temperate and diverse; not as masculine and aggressive as the 'black' woman, but not as submissive as the 'Asian'. Because of this 'white men' and men from other 'races' date 'white women' because of that 'stability'. Please note, I am not here saying that we don't have macho guys who happen to have dark skin, kinky hair and light skinned, straight haired women who are stable, but to assume that their physical features correlate with their behavior; that is racist, in fact this is what characterizes racism. Racism doesn't just mean if you think one is superior to the next, it's also when you don't treat people the same all on the basis of race.

Now to address con's arguments.

"Is it racist to make an organization representing black people and only pick black people for leaders and discriminate against white applicants? Is it racist for an Asian restaurant to discriminate against non-Asian job applicants? For me it all comes down to motive."

I disagree. What does having a 'black organization' even mean in the first place? We know that race is not a biological reality so what does that mean? Also, I think the underlying question really is why can't a light skinned, straight haired person represent a dark skinned kinky haired one? Once you say that a 'white person' can't represent a 'black' person, and don't take what I am about to say as an offense because I used to believe it too, you are affirming a fundamental difference between people who have been wrongly and ignorantly labelled black and those who have been wrongly and ignorantly labelled white, when neither the biology nor sociology shows that difference.

Secondly, it is racist for 'Asians to discriminate against non-Asians. This is just ignorance. Do you honestly think that every 'Asian' born in America knows how to cook 'Asian' food or even remotely knows any more about China, Japan or Vietnam than the average 'white' American knows about England, Germany or Russia? Especially when it comes to third and fourth generations. I know 'blacks' who know more about Asia than 'Asians' do because they've studied it.

"It is unlikely that I will marry a black girl. This is because for most of them their culture is so different that I can easily find a white girl with a more similar culture. For the black girls I do find with strong cultural similarity, I find most of them to be not as attractive as most white girls I can date. We tend to date those who look like us. Black people tend to prefer black people, white people tend to prefer white people, and so on."

Again, need I quote the AAPA "There is no necessary concordance between biological characteristics and culturally defined groups. On every continent, there are diverse populations that differ in language, economy, and culture." You said "for most of THEM THEIR culture" So as to say there is a relationship between a persons physical features and their culture. You also pointed out the us vs them issue, even though it is a fact that there really is no difference, except for in our imaginations.

The same principles you use to identify a datable 'white girl' if you used those criteria you'd probably find a 'black' one and an 'Asian' one as well. I can understand if you don't want to date an African or a Vietnamese; cultural difference, but how about an American, one who shares the same ideals, goes to the same school, with the same socioeconomic background and same language patterns. You then said that, you don't find the ones who match culturally to be attractive. Now here's where it gets tricky. Its very easy to conceive of a 'white' punk rocker girl in your mind but when I say 'black' punk rocker girl, it's sort of on the edge of absurd. Why? Because our society only depicts 'non-white' people in a homogenous way while emphasizing the diversity in 'white' people. So we have different types of 'white' people there is the 'stay at home mom', the nice guy, the jock/jerk, the charming prince, the villain, the super hot girl, but when it comes to 'other' looking people it's only one thing; ugly angry 'black' woman, submissive Asian girls, gangster black guy. I don't blame this entirely on people who self-identify as white; everyone is responsible in some way. So when the only thing that you've ever seen on TV is the angry/ghetto black girl, from childhood till adulthood, coupled with the overt racist statements about black women actually being ugly and the social stigma of dating someone outside of the imagined races, especially the ones at the bottom of the totem pole, the chances of you finding her attractive are profoundly slim. I think when anyone starts to think only a few people of a certain 'race' is beautiful it's when society has truly soaked into their psyche. Again, I'm not mentioning only people who are labelled 'white' I mean everyone. I've heard the "white people aren't that beautiful" statements as well. Now you are probably assuming that I'm referring to 'black' people, but again I've heard 'Asians' say it as well.

"We tend to date those who look like us. Black people tend to prefer black people, white people tend to prefer white people, and so on." This isn't true, given the current situation, many people would rather to marry someone who is 'white'. The OK Cupid research shows that. Even 'black' 'Asian' and 'Indian' people prefer the lighter skinned. This isn't necessarily self-hate or even genuine liking of 'white people'. It's actually quite natural and sensible to date someone who is not being socially discriminated against. This however just shows the deplorable condition of society.

http://blog.okcupid.com...

"So interracial marriage has created gender gaps within the races"

There are no races, in the first place. To assume that there is a 'gender gap' would seem to imply that by right 'blacks' should marry 'blacks' whites-whites etc. I really don't have a problem with 'black women' being unable to find 'black men' or 'white men' being unable to find 'white women' the problem is not so much the partners we are choosing, it's because are choices are race-based.
distraff

Con

My argument that racial exclusivity would make dating fair for all races was never addressed.

Pro: Firstly, I'd like to point out that con hasn't really addressed my argument; 1) that racist stereotypes have shaped dating patterns in the past and the same beliefs tend to persist today reflecting these same notions which indicates how our dating has been influenced by racism.

I agree that racial stereotypes have shaped our dating preferences. I only think that they are not the only thing that have shaped dating.

Pro: What does having a 'black organization' even mean in the first place? We know that race is not a biological reality.

"There is no necessary concordance between biological characteristics and culturally defined groups. On every continent, there are diverse populations that differ in language, economy, and culture."


Race is a physical reality. Race is based on physical features and cultural background. If you disagree then try to see if you cannot classify people with a race based on their appearance. Because of the cultural aspect, race can change over time. Also there are some interracial individuals making racial identification incomplete. But the average Asian looks a lot different than the average white, and the average black.

Race is not based in a general biological difference but in a general physical difference in a few traits. That is why you can tell the racial background of most people.

Race also includes cultural differences that can be a reason for mate selectivity.

So black organizations have a valid basis and this example still stands of a demonstration of racial selectivity based on logical reasoning that is not racist.

Asian Restaurant Discrimination

My reasoning is not ignorant. While some white people do know how to cook Asian food and speak Chinese (for Chinese restaurants) the vast majority do not. That is why the vast majority of Asian restaurants I have visited are almost completely Asian staffed. Most Asian applicants have an advantage in experience and background than most white applicants.

Pro: You said "for most of THEM THEIR culture" So as to say there is a relationship between a persons physical features and their culture. You also pointed out the us vs them issue, even though it is a fact that there really is no difference, except for in our imaginations.

There are differences between general black and white cultures. See wikipedia for a reference of black culture (1). The cultural difference I am most familiar with is between asians and whites because my girlfriend is Chinese. Asian culture tends to be far more family oriented which is why their divorce rate is much lower. They tend to value career and work more and tend to be more polite.Their diet and food tends to be different from ours. There are differences between different Asian cultures and differences between individuals but that is the general trend I clearly see. I know some Chinese who don't value family a lot and white people who do but general trends still exist.

Pro: I can understand if you don't want to date an African or a Vietnamese; cultural difference

My girlfriend is actually a Chinese citizen. I do understand those who date within their culture because they can create conflicts.

Pro: You then said that, you don't find the ones who match culturally to be attractive.... I've heard the "white people aren't that beautiful" statements as well.

As mentioned before, we tend to find people more similar to us to be more attractive in some ways. White girls are only more beautiful to me. For a black man it may be black girls. I have a white friend who thinks Hispanic girls tend to be the most beautiful, but most white guys don't think like him.

Pro: Racism doesn't just mean if you think one is superior to the next, it's also when you don't treat people the same all on the basis of race.

Racism is not just a set of actions. It is an ideology. It is actions based on ideology. That is why you keep trying to show racial selectivity is based on ignorant assumptions. Racism is based on assumptions about racial groups making out some to be superior to others. It also is rooted in a belief that because of these differences, the races must be kept separate. It is all in the definition I provided in the first round.

In the first round the definition says racism involves prejudice and discrimination. These words imply unfairness. This discrimination is based on race and not on logical reasoning or else it would be fair. If in an outdoor activity white members were given more attention about skin protection and had more made available, this would not be racist because white people in general actually do get sun burnt easier.

In the same way giving women more information about rape than men is not sexist because women are far more likely to be raped. So not all racial selectivity is racist and is only racist if it is based in discrimination because of an ideology of racial inferiority and making assumptions about everyone of a race and not logical reasoning .

Pro: many people would rather to marry someone who is 'white'. The OK Cupid research shows that. Even 'black' 'Asian' and 'Indian' people prefer the lighter skinned.

Lets look at the female response rate matrix. Black males get a 28% response rates from blacks compared to a 21.7% average. For most races however there doesn't seem to be much of a preference to their own race (3). This may be because the people who are using online dating are very different than the rest of the country. Most Americans marry within their own race which means they prefer their own race.

Also just because you respond to someone doesn't mean you are eventually going to be married to them. This may explain the unusual patterns on Okcupid. Research has shown that most people are attracted most to those who look like them. They have done studies showing that women are more attracted to men who look like them even within their race (4,5).

Pro: 2) That selecting a particular race is not mere preference, or even preference of a physical feature, it's a preference based on a exploitative social construct.

Many Native Americans people want to marry within their race because they want their children to look Native American. Is it racist to want children who looks like you?

Many Asian want to marry within their race because they want a family with pure Asian culture. The best way to do this is marry an Asian who is attached to his roots.

Some racial differences also are attractiveness differences. For example women tend to prefer taller men. Asian men tend to be shorter so that may be why they are not as preferred in general.

People marry within their race sometimes because of the social consequences from others if they marry outside their race.

People generally like those who look like them resulting in racial preference.

There is actual racism involved in the racial preference for some people but not for all.

This all results in high racial selectivity but still some interracial marriage because these trends are not absolute. These are valid reasons for racial preference.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org...
2: https://www.census.gov...
3: http://blog.okcupid.com...
4: http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
5: http://abcnews.go.com...
Debate Round No. 3
foreduca

Pro

"My argument that racial exclusivity would make dating fair for all races was never addressed."

Your question presupposes that race exists as an objective biological reality. What does "make dating fair for all races" mean. Do you mean that a 'black' woman will have the opportunity to have a 'black' man? If you do, this just begs the question, who told us in the first place that a 'black' woman ought to have a 'black' man'? Biology doesn't state this.

"I agree that racial stereotypes have shaped our dating preferences."

You've proved my point.

"Race is a physical reality. Race is based on physical features and cultural background. If you disagree then try to see if you cannot classify people with a race based on their appearance."

The quotation you contradicted wasn't mine. It was the official statement of the American Association of Physical Anthropology. Even the Government admits this fact. It's only the masses that don't know. Here's a quote from the US 2000 Census Bureau

"The concept of race as used by the Census Bureau reflects self-identification by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. These categories are sociopolitical constructs and should not be interpreted as being scientific or anthropological in nature. Furthermore, the race categories include both racial and national-origin groups."

http://www.americanancestors.org...

In other words, they're saying we don't believe that races really exist we're just asking you what you self-identify with. However, an appeal to authority doesn't prove my point so I'll argue why race does not exist.

There are only four racial groups 1) White 2) Black 3) Asian 4) Native American. When I say each of the 'races' there is an image that comes to mind for each of these groups. A pale, blonde-haired blue-eyed girl for White. A dark skinned, kinky haired, broad nosed man for Black. Black haired woman whose eyes have an epicanthic fold ('Asian Eyes'). Olive skinned, firmly built boy with tall black hair for Native American. Strangely, for each of these groups there are some people who either don't quite fit in or look completely different. Indians for example, look completely different from the Chinese. In fact, Indians look completely different between themselves. Northern Indians are light skinned and have a Middle Eastern resemblance, while in the South they are dark, sometimes even darker than 'Blacks', some are brown, some have very wide noses, some have thin ones, yet the Chinese and Indians are both considered the same race despite the very obvious and stark physical and cultural differences. Similarly, no one thinks Middle Eastern, Arab or Northern African when we say white, yet these aren't races; they're ethnic groups whose cultures are not in the least similar and who look very different, but are white. Despite the physical and cultural difference between East Africans and West African both are labeled 'black'. Somalians and Ethiopians tend to have straight noses and hair that seems 'mixed'. Australian Aborigines and people from the Solomon Islands who tend to have straight hair are also considered black.

Interestingly, 'Asian eyes' are not exclusive to 'Asians'. The San people in South Africa also have it and it occurs occasionally in Europeans such as the Scandinavians and Poles. Couple this with the fact that not every 'Asian' has 'Asian eyes', shows it's not 'Asian' at all. Similarly, straight blonde hair is not exclusively 'white' either. Significant populations of 'black' people in the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu Islands, Fiji and Australian Aborigines have it. Some of these Melanesian are also redheads and the science has already proven that there has been no European contact. Also, I have no idea what race a Sri Lankan or 'mixed race' is.

As for DNA, the Negritos, though bearing close resemblance to 'Black' people in Africa and the West are genetically the farthest people from Africans. This means 'white people' are genetically much closer to 'African Americans' than a Negrito.

Therefore, it is safe to conclude that races do not exist and that the groups are not truly based on either physical features or cultural similarities. This does not mean that people don't have physical differences; one person might have light skin while the other has dark skin, but this difference does not imply that races are real just that we look different. So far the groupings seem to be completely arbitrary and not based on any consistent standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://www.nature.com...

"My reasoning is not ignorant."
I was refferring to the employer. It's possible that a 'white' person could prepare world class sushi far better than any 'Asian' in the area. However, because the employer assumes that 'white' people don't know 'Asian' food, he doesn't even consider his application. In the business world, this could mean the employer missing out on a serious profit.

"There are differences between general black and white cultures... Asian culture tends to be far more family oriented which is why their divorce rate is much lower. They tend to value career and work more and tend to be more polite.Their diet and food tends to be different from ours. There are differences between different Asian cultures and differences between individuals but that is the general trend I clearly see. I know some Chinese who don't value family a lot and white people who do but general trends still exist."

I'll cite a GENERAL 'cultural difference'. What if I said that 'White culture' is more drug prone than 'black culture'? Times magazine posted an article showing a study done by Psychiatrist, Dan Blazer, of Duke University in which he found that 'white' people are more likely to abuse drugs than 'blacks' and this finding crosses socioeconomic lines. How might I interpret that? Should I now be cautious of 'white' people? Probably not. I'm sure you would appreciate something more like "well not all 'white' people are like that. You should deal with people as individuals." Therefore, as you yourself pointed out about Chinese who are not very family-oriented, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS and these 'General Trends' we see in cultures are all dependent on the individual.

http://healthland.time.com...

"My girlfriend is actually a Chinese citizen."

This is surprising because I wrote that in response to your statement "It is unlikely that I will marry a black girl. This is because for most of them their culture is so different that I can easily find a white girl with a more similar culture."

"just because you respond to someone doesn't mean you are eventually going to be married to them. This may explain the unusual patterns on Okcupid. Research has shown that most people are attracted most to those who look like them."

The debate wasn't about marriage, and the dating patterns aren't unusual. AYI another dating site has shown similar results. Your article on the other hand actually supports my points. They cited Iman and David Bowie, and Heidi Klum and Seal as examples of the said similarity. And to quote Christina Bloom from the article "It's not like an exact match, it's more about shape and the points in the face." So this was not speaking about skin color, and I'll admit, color aside, Heidi does look like Seal in bone structure. This would prove that we are physically similar even across 'racial lines'.

http://www.ayi.com...
http://abcnews.go.com...

"Is it racist to want children who looks like you?"

Your child has to have some of your features regardless of who you have them with; they have half your DNA.
distraff

Con

What does "make dating fair for all races" mean.

With interracial marriage men and women of different races will be competing against each other for a mate. However since there is racial preference some genders of some racial groups will have a harder time, e.g. black women and Indian and Asian men. If there is no interracial marriage, this discrimination won't exist because there is an equal number of men and women within each race. If black men didn't marry outside their race, black women who have trouble intermarrying would have more black men to choose from.

In other words, they're [government] saying we don't believe that races really exist we're just asking you what you self-identify with.

Races are not a biological reality because they are not genetically distinct enough to be classified as subspecies. So in biological classification humans are all grouped together. This does not mean there are no general physical differences like different face structure and skin color.

If you look at Africans some of them have really dark skin. It is very easy to differentiate them from Europeans. We are able to physically classify the majority of people you see to a general racial group. This means that there are groups of physical markers that can be used to differentiate the races in general.

Despite the physical and cultural difference between East Africans and West African both are labeled 'black'.

Our general racial group classification sometimes groups several different sub-racial groups together into a larger racial classification. Although this is not scientific it is done for convenience. There still are general facial and skin color differences between East Africans and West Africans, and West Africans and Chinese people.

Similarly, no one thinks Middle Eastern, Arab or Northern African when we say white, yet these aren't races; they're ethnic groups whose cultures are not in the least similar and who look very different, but are white.

Most people do not classify them as white. They think of them as middle eastern. These people generally look very different from Northern Europeans.

Interestingly, 'Asian eyes' are not exclusive to 'Asians'. The San people in South Africa also have it and it occurs occasionally in Europeans such as the Scandinavians and Poles. Couple this with the fact that not every 'Asian' has 'Asian eyes', shows it's not 'Asian' at all.

Racial groups are classified by general combinations facial and skin color traits. You cannot use just one trait to classify a race.

As for DNA, the Negritos, though bearing close resemblance to 'Black' people in Africa and the West are genetically the farthest people from Africans.

Race is based on facial and skin color features not genetic similarity. African Americans are actually interracial between white and African people and can almost be said to now make up their own racial group. While interracial people are exceptions to racial classification, most people can easily be classified.

This does not mean that people don't have physical differences; one person might have light skin while the other has dark skin, but this difference does not imply that races are real just that we look different.

My opponent just admitted that races look different. So they are real in the sense that they look different. These differences in looks can be used for mate selection. Race is based on real physical differences. In China the average height is 5 ft 2 in. In the US it is 5 ft 4 in. In Norway where most are white it is 5 ft 6 in (1). There is a direct correlation between region and skin color with darker skin concentrated around the equator (2).

It's possible that a 'white' person could prepare world class sushi far better than any 'Asian' in the area.

My point was completely missed. Chinese people are far more likely to both know their language and cook Chinese food well. So the vast majority of accepted applicants will be Chinese. So while the restaurant is mostly hiring from one race and mostly turning down another, they are doing this for logical reasons and are not racist. The employer is not turning down people because they are white. He is turning them down because they actually do have less experience.

What if I said that 'White culture' is more drug prone than 'black culture'? ... Should I now be cautious of 'white' people?

Only a minority of people do drugs so I would not use that as a reason to be cautious of any racial group even if some are more drug prone than others.

Therefore, as you yourself pointed out about Chinese who are not very family-oriented, WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS and these 'General Trends' we see in cultures are all dependent on the individual.

Of course. There are so much variation. But a very clear trend does exist. Asian women have a divorce rate of 10 per 1,000. For whites it is 16. These general differences mean that we will prefer people of our own culture generally and race correlates with culture. That is why race is so convenient, even the Census Bureau still uses it.

This is surprising because I wrote that in response to your statement "It is unlikely that I will marry a black girl. This is because for most of them their culture is so different that I can easily find a white girl with a more similar culture."

Remember the part about individual variation. She is different from the average Asian girl.

AYI another dating site has shown similar results.

Results from dating sites do not reflect the general population. While women may not prefer messages from their own race on dating sites, in real life the vast majority marry their own race.

Your article on the other hand actually supports my points. They cited Iman and David Bowie, and Heidi Klum and Seal as examples of the said similarity. And to quote Christina Bloom from the article "It's not like an exact match, it's more about shape and the points in the face." So this was not speaking about skin color, and I'll admit, color aside, Heidi does look like Seal in bone structure. This would prove that we are physically similar even across 'racial lines'.

In the study they did not want racial discrimination to affect their physical preference results. So they only used shape and points on the face. But it still confirms that people like those who look similar. Similarity also includes height and skin color.

Your child has to have some of your features regardless of who you have them with; they have half your DNA.

Some but not all. Half of the traits will come from the other person.

Conclusion

I have demonstrated that races do exist generally as groups of people differentiated with facial features and skin color. Some racial differences can be used for mate selection such as height. Race is correlated with culture and culture can be used for mate selection. If a Chinese women wants a man of Chinese culture, she is probably going to pick a Chinese man. I have demonstrated many non-racist reasons for exclusive dating. My definition of racism went unchallenged this round so it stands.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org...
2: http://en.wikipedia.org...
3: http://www.sciencedaily.com...
Debate Round No. 4
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by mall 1 year ago
mall
Must have a real biased voters and usually who agree with views of the con side are involved in that mindset. Demarcation and perpetuating the social constructs, believe it or not that the pro side has proven. You use biology in attempt to back up whatever shortsighted understandings held. Let a lone biased statistics. The pro side held a lot more logic and fair evaluation of things. Only flaw was with the mention of a 100% basis for selective mating, dating are stereotypical notions. The con side again, it seems they always use third person reports . Which can be invalid, circular reasoning , biased bell curve as they call it. Plenty of generalizations and as the pro side mentioned, stick with the individuals. Also from the con side, claiming that the problems are eliminated by avoiding them. Now that's a contradiction when worded that way, but that's what was claimed and probably claimed now. Totally false, and a whole lot more in the premise. Also more explanation could be grafted on some other points . "Is it 'racist' to want your kids/offspring to 'look like you' "? A lot would probably answer no right away like I first thought. Then I reconsider some more and have come to the conclusion that it all depends . That's right , it all depends on the reason . The response given in the debate was logical but a direct answer to the yes or no question. Statements that moot "culture" and "tend to be like or more like them" can use some clarity, let alone corroboration, albeit is not believed to be invalid. But is it "racist" to only date or have preference for a group in particular? The answer is yes and no.
Posted by foreduca 2 years ago
foreduca
@ DeJesus.Lisette I really appreciate that you take an interest in this. You are the first person I've actually heard tried to come up with a solution like this.

Anyhow, I agree with you to an extent. There isn't anything really wrong for a dark skinned person to prefer a light skin partner or vice versa, or if a dark skinned person preferred a dark skinned partner. The problem is that when we say we 'prefer a race' it's not us showing a preference. As I said before if I say that I prefer blondes it doesn't mean I wouldn't date a brunette, it just means I have a strong liking for blondes, but this is not what we mean when we say we prefer a race. We mean that we only date a certain type of person belonging to an imagined category, not founded in biology; otherwise known as race.

On the other hand, I don't think 'interracial relationships' should be promoted or advocated for because there is no such thing in the first place and also because there is nothing special about it or any other type of relationship for that matter. It should be a very normal thing for people to date anyone whether you have the same skin color or not. Relationships should just happen purely on bias free attraction and compatibility. Also, while it might be a good idea to date regardless of looks and culture, I think this will need a dramatic social change for itself. So we should deal with racism first then the other problems.

I agree completely with your solutions though and actually don't think there is another way.

"let's glamorize men and women of all creeds"
"those of us who can see how messed up it is that certain races are considered less attractive to many people, should try to propagate a different picture for future generations."

The only thing I'd add is that we don't want a reverse of what is happening now, so people should be just viewed as varied individuals; not everyone from the minorities are going to be glamorous people. Reality is what we should strive fo
Posted by foreduca 2 years ago
foreduca
@DeJesus.Lisette Firstly, Racism can be both conscious and unconscious. Unconscious racism is what is called Aversive racism. It's not a conscious decision to behave negatively towards anyone, but because of society and how we are raised we end up acting racist nonetheless. Here is an example, there is a study cited in Social Psychology and Human Nature, Roy F Baumeister and Brad G Bushman, that says "When viewing an ambiguous scene with a possibly dangerous man who may or may not be armed, participants are more likely to shoot at the man if he is black than if he is white." Now it might be very easy to say "that's because these people are consciously racist", but this seems very far from the truth. When I looked at the picture I felt the same way despite the fact that there was no real difference in either persons body language. I do not consider myself a racist, but those unconscious and irrational feelings have a racist source and therefore I am guilty of Aversive racism. This doesn't mean I am a bad person who has no hope; it just means I need to recondition myself.

Secondly, I do not agree with distraff's narrow definition of racism. That cannot be all that racism entails. Most people think that racism has to be negative, it doesn't have to be and can take on a variety of forms that have nothing to do with hate, discrimination, or prejudice. Most people will say that saying that 'black' people are lazy' is a racist statement. I agree, it is. But suppose I say that 'black' people are good dancers. This seems like a compliment more than anything else, but it is a racist statement all the same because not everyone incorrectly labelled as 'black' knows how to dance. In fact, some 'white people could out dance many 'black people any day. This idea is based in the belief that 'black' people have these genes that make them predisposed to dancing. So racism doesn't have to be negative.

Check my next comment...
Posted by DeJesus.Lisette 2 years ago
DeJesus.Lisette
It's horrible to hear someone be so un-attracted to his own race, but what can we say to him? Should we say hey, date someone you don't find beautiful? I don't think that's wise. You can't force yourself to like something or someone you don't like, even on just a physical level, even if it's ignorance-based, and I wouldn't want to date someone who was bothered by my physical appearance. What I tell those who are closed-minded to dating other races, particularly the minorities (hope I'm using that word politically correctly), is not to just ignore how they feel, but instead keep it to themselves. Don't share your belief that a certain entire race is unattractive, we shouldn't keep spreading that idea, and letting it catch on. Let's show more interracial relationships in the media, let's glamorize men and women of all creeds, let's show adamant support to those who can see past another person's skin color and culture. In truth, I think everyone should strive individually to 'see directly into a persons soul', so-to-speak, to see beyond all physical features, now that's a truly admirable feat, but that's another thing entirely. For now, those of us who can see how messed up it is that certain races are considered less attractive to many people, should try to propagate a different picture for future generations. I feel like many people may disagree with this plan of action, I'd love to hear other suggestions, but this is the best I can come up with. It's absolutely subject to change.
Posted by DeJesus.Lisette 2 years ago
DeJesus.Lisette
The results from OKCupid make a strong point about what its users want for a partner. I do believe these results would probably be comparable to what the results would be if a similar study were conducted on all Americans, and yes that is an assumption, but let's just go with it if you will; the results weren't disputed in the debate, let's not dispute with me now.

So if it is true that black people are more open-minded about dating different races, while everyone else is more close-minded about dating black people (I hope I summarized that accordingly), then here's how I feel:

It is not racist to only date your race or only a particular race, for as distraff shared, racism is defined as "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior", and not being attracted to someone is not the same as feeling as though oneself is better than someone else, or hating that someone else. HOWEVER, I do believe that the OKCupid results are a result of racism. As foreduca said, "race and racism has affected every aspect of modern life, it has affected our social interactions, our politics", it has definitely provided us with an ugly biased lens through which we see the world, and we don't even realize it. I do think people have been conditioned in some sense, have been taught that light skin and straight hair is more beautiful, and that's a terrible thing, but I don't think that people who feel that way are racist, just ignorant. Yes, racism is a form of ignorance, but not all ignorance is racism.

How do we combat this? I think that a powerful tool that helped cause our ignorance can be used to fight against it: propaganda. This is a sad truth: I have African American friends of different skin tones from light to dark who have told me that they are not attracted to black women, and that's me rephrasing their words to be a lot less harsh.

I will continue in a second comment . . .
Posted by DeJesus.Lisette 2 years ago
DeJesus.Lisette
The results from OKCupid make a strong point about what its users want for a partner. I do believe these results would probably be comparable to what the results would be if a similar study were conducted on all Americans, and yes that is an assumption, but let's just go with it if you will; the results weren't disputed in the debate, let's not dispute with me now.

So if it is true that black people are more open-minded about dating different races, while everyone else is more close-minded about dating black people (I hope I summarized that accordingly), then here's how I feel:

It is not racist to only date your race or only a particular race, for as distraff shared, racism is defined as "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior", and not being attracted to someone is not the same as feeling as though oneself is better than someone else, or hating that someone else. HOWEVER, I do believe that the OKCupid results are a result of racism. As foreduca said, "race and racism has affected every aspect of modern life, it has affected our social interactions, our politics", it has definitely provided us with an ugly biased lens through which we see the world, and we don't even realize it. I do think people have been conditioned in some sense, have been taught that light skin and straight hair is more beautiful, and that's a terrible thing, but I don't think that people who feel that way are racist, just ignorant. Yes, racism is a form of ignorance, but not all ignorance is racism.

How do we combat this? I think that a powerful tool that helped cause our ignorance can be used to fight against it: propaganda. This is a sad truth: I have African American friends of different skin tones from light to dark who have told me that they are not attracted to black women, and that's me rephrasing their words to be a lot less harsh.

I will continue in a second comment . . .
Posted by foreduca 2 years ago
foreduca
I enjoyed the debate with distraff. I wanted to address something he/she said but it wasn't relevant to my point, so I didn't, but when the voting period is over I'll post it in the comments. I hope everyone enjoyed the debate though.
Posted by distraff 2 years ago
distraff
It is a good debate. This is a new topic for me and I am learning a lot. I hope future rounds are enjoyable.
Posted by DeJesus.Lisette 2 years ago
DeJesus.Lisette
Great debate, although both parties have incorporated assumptions. I'll have more to say when the debate is over!
Posted by foreduca 2 years ago
foreduca
Sorry I forgot to mention that. Anyhow, yes that's I mean, so you can accept
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by 9spaceking 2 years ago
9spaceking
foreducadistraffTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: pro makes a good case showing that people do in fact choose particular races as husband or wife, but con points out that it is mostly not because of their race but rather their culture, personality and similarity in other types rather than race.