The Instigator
evospireX
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
greatkitteh
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is it worth it to prepare and attempt getting into an ivy-league school?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
evospireX
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2015 Category: Education
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 793 times Debate No: 74840
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (14)
Votes (1)

 

evospireX

Pro

Getting into an ivy-league university is one of the greatest merits a person can hold. Today, ivy-league schools are much better funded, and it is easy for a person of lesser economic background to aspire for a top tier school. Ivy-league schools also give the student a better time finding jobs, as getting into such a prestigious school is something that belongs on the top of a resume. On the other hand. if getting into an ivy-league is out of an individual's potential, then that person would have, at the very least, broadened his capability to get into another equally qualified school, or a school that is almost as good.

Compared to the many children who waste their precious time with video games and other such time-eaters(not to say that playing video-games is unhealthy but that playing it excessively, like most kids do, is not the best choice). In an essay about college admission written by Helen Vendler, an English professor from Harvard, writes, " Our excellent students are intensely recruited by business and finance in the fall of their senior year"sometimes even earlier than that." Besides a childhood of video-games, one can clearly see the good that results from pursuing an ivy-league university. Things like raising a family, getting a nice car, and establishing a distinguished career position outlive the momentary joy that can be found in childish amusements.

Another view on trying to get into an ivy-league school is if a person tries their best but still does not make it due to unknown reasons. If one was prepped for Harvard but unfortunately did not make the cut like 94.3% do not, then he or she is sure to hit a equivalent or as good university. Someone qualified for Harvard, complete with credentials proving their worth can easily claim a spot at another university. Harvard possesses a very vigorous, yet efficient admission process, so if a person was denied entry into a school like Harvard(Princeton, Yale, Columbia) Then it is likely that they might actually be more compatible and better served at a different school.

All in all, trying for a major university is worth it, since the overall gain is much better. The preparation time taken and set aside from younger years will in turn come to benefit you ten-fold in the future.
greatkitteh

Con

A person after they hear "Harvard" is likely to join in, but is this "Harvard" worth it?

My first rebuttal is on growth. Because most people going to these schools are developing, it is of crucial, critical, and crystal-clear that we most focus on jobs growing. According to my evidence, none of the 25 most developing jobs need anymore then an associate degree. What is surely to be an HUGE student debt is not worth the easiness and most elementary degree of all of the homo homo sapiens species.

source: http://www.careerinfonet.org...

Now, i shall follow with my first argument, the student debt. Ivy league is one of the most, if not the most, expensive colleges of America,west, and world beyond it. In fact, Yale had to sue it`s own students over this issue. Is it really worth an ivy league degree? When by the time you grow up, the popular jobs will be different, and so will be the education needed for the job. But perhaps the education needed will not cost you every waking hour.

source: http://www.bloomberg.com...

But after all said, I do not oppose college completely. However, some colleges offer less student debt in the process. They are cheaper, make you feel a belonging in the community, and can allow for professors to help an individual more. Here, professors teach, not graduate students. In fact, a lot of professors deny higher-paying school jobs( or high paying until student debt lowers it down) for this opportunity.

http://www.collegeview.com...

Overall, college is a unique experience, but can you be unique when you`re classified by number? When
you owe more money to the world then the beggar?
.
Debate Round No. 1
evospireX

Pro

Before starting my argument, I would like to apologize to anyone who felt that my parameters for success were "subjective".
To those of you who oppose having a luxurious car and a nice career, we will debate another time.

I was planning to debate someone using only my prior knowledge, but your very well implemented facts means I have to equally contribute to the argument. As I mentioned before, ivy-league schools are much better funded than most and it is possible to go in an graduate without having to pay a single cent. 70% students receive some form of aid, 60% receive a scholarship, and pay an average of only 12,000 a year. families with incomes of $65,000 or less do not pay a cent, and those close to that range pay about 10% of their income. That's $6,500 for the entire tuition.(1) At Princeton, they have been using a system implemented in 2001 that allows student to draw money from their grants in the from of a student loan, except that the students don't need to pay a single cent back.(2)

Source(1): https://college.harvard.edu...

Source(2): http://admission.princeton.edu...

There exists no problem with finding a good salary when coming out a ivy-league university. After graduating, the median salary of Yale graduates receive an annual salary of $62,400 and have a mid-career salary of $124,600. Fresh Harvard graduates have a median salary of $59,600 and can grow to a mid-career salary of $122,700. Princeton and many other top tier universities follow the same model with very high-end graduate salaries.(3)

Source(3): http://www.payscale.com...

On the other hand, community college graduates make close to $40,000 annually, and their overall life salary will never reach six digits.(4)

Source(4): http://money.cnn.com...

Gradutates from Harvard include: Robert Frost, John Ashbury, Wallace Stevens, and even Ralph Emerson. I doubt the world will ever look them as just numbers.

Source(5): https://college.harvard.edu...
greatkitteh

Con

My opponent still argues with currency. I see his/her point, but it`s not over until he/she, and the voters, see mine.

My opponent say students can go to an ivy league college for free. However, this is better written in context then in practice. The "some form of aid" is in fact, not aid. Perhaps a better word is, "debt". The student loan is a very expensive loan, considering you`re chance of scholarship is around 60%. In fact, student debt is right now over many millions, , and can be worse overtime. And, while this overtime happens, keep in mind that out of the top 25 growing jobs, none need a ivy league degree in the first place! Since 1970 tuition rates have risen over one thousand percent, citizens in debt were multiplied by 4, and state funding decreases by 40 percent. And worse, if you default on your debt, you will lose your professional certifications. This defeats the whole purpose of ivy league. Also, the crisis gets worse and worse.

source: http://billmoyers.com...

My opponent says there is no problem with finding a good salary when coming out of ivy league. But ever since bush, this has changed, just like student debt and growing jobs. In fact, here is an link of a Harvard graduate, now working in a motel!

source: http://butidideverythingrightorsoithought.blogspot.com...

This isn`t all. Others had worse times, this man was homeless!
source: http://www.nytimes.com...

after this, it seems like the $40,000 is higher then 0$.

My opponent`s solution is one easier said then done, however, as I said, the small colleges beg for attention. Others, have great lives without college!

The notable people include Abraham Lincoln, Mlk, , josef stalin, Andrew Jackson, and many others. Other people have success at a non-ivy league college. They include gahndi and oprah winfrey.
Debate Round No. 2
evospireX

Pro

Before I start, I would like to especially highlight my opponent's example about that one Harvard student who is homeless. I think that it is funny that my opponent was able to blow off my fact that 60% had a scholarship costing around 12,000 a year, yet it was not high enough a percentage to pursue an ivy-league school. Going back to the homeless graduate point, it seems that my opponent would not pursue and recommend others not to pursue an ivy-league school for that one homeless man(and possibly a few others) over 60% of the students in Harvard. Besides, the other 40% will be coming from richer backgrounds. In fact, 52 graduates graduate with billions of dollars in their bank account.(1)

Source(1): http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

For that matter, one should not limit his or her goals due to the inability of a select few. Who's to say that someone won't do well going into an ivy-league if they haven't tried. The original topic was: Is it worth it to prepare and attempt getting into an ivy-league school. Yet, my opponent says that it is not worth preparing for an ivy-league school because it will cause tremendous student loan. The statement that "it is better said than done" is completely out of the question because my opponent is essentially depicting that it is more likely for someone to graduate out of Harvard and become poor(less than 1% minority) over getting a decent scholarship(60% majority).

Not only that, but after careful analysis of my opponents source(http://www.careerinfonet.org...), it turns out many of the salaries for careers are false. The site says that a registered nurse with an associate's degree, could have made $2,711,500 in 2012, and $3,238,400. Looking at US News, a much more credible source, shows that the best paid entry-level registered nurses(less than 10%) make 96,320(2). Even as a projection, it doesn't even make sense. Also to clarify, at the top of the page it says,"These are the occupations with a typical entry-level education of an 'associate's degree' that are projected to grow the fastest during the 2012-2022 time period. This does not mean these are the occupations with the most openings." This shows that not anyone in the world can get around with just an associate's degree, and those who can are very lucky.

Source(2): http://money.usnews.com...

Preparing for an ivy-league school can be one of the most rewarding choices one can make. Of course, it can lead to one getting into an ivy-league school which is a huge bonus for reasons i have mentioned in my previous rounds. It is important to remember not to get caught up in the idea of the quickest way to get money. With an ivy-league school, your job-application stands out, and the same goes for the schools just under, but more importantly, it is essential that you pick a career that you enjoy. If your only goal in life is to make money, than sure, become a dental hygienist and spend the rest of your life cleaning teeth. On the other hand, if you choose a career that suits you, it would be much more beneficial to an ivy-league university. The professors there are the leaders of their field. Ivy-league schools can also give you connections that no other kind of college can provide, which will help with getting a job in whatever career you are interested in. People interested in in the performing arts should definitely stay away from low-profile colleges and degrees, since you may end up with doing something you love, but wound up getting paid almost nothing. A community like Yale or Princeton can cultivate your abilities, and set you up for success. Not only would you meet other performers in the same venue as you, but you will also be exposed to many perspectives on your art. This concept goes hand in hand with almost all other career choices. According to Ivywise, an article from US Today states, "While not the most costly of U.S. colleges"Sarah Lawrence has that distinction at some $57,556 a year"Ivy League school fees average around $55,000, more than the median American annual income of $46,000. But Ivy League grads should be more than able to recover those costs when they enter the working world, according to statistics. Depending on a graduate's degree, the lowest median starting salary for an elite eight ranges from $49,400 for Brown to $59,600 for the University of Pennsylvania." This quote explains my entire side of how ivy-league schools are not going to end up in clumps of debt.

Source(3): http://www.ivywise.com...

As I mentioned before, if one does not make it into and ivy-league school, they always have a venue into a mediocre or even a recognized university such as Carnegie Mellon. Studying hard to make your college application perfect will definitely pour out benefits in the future, such as: having an edge in the growing job competition, getting into a good university if your initial attempt doesn't work, and just simply increasing your potential, something all great minds strive for.
greatkitteh

Con

I would like to highlight my opponent`s high debating skills. I would love to debate again in the future, and it seems like my opponent has done his/her research well. However, that does not mean I will give up on this cause.

I would like to say, in fact, the U.S news is NOT a more credible source. There is one essential part of the news my opponent has missed- This site was a blog. Furthermore, We do not know who wrote down that source. I have seen how they rate the scores, and it seems like their are a few contradictions. I would like my opponent, and maybe some unlazy voters, to see this:

http://money.usnews.com...

Also, my opponent stubbornly refutes the debt problem. I would like to say my opponent`s sources are biased. Ivy league`s own sites will nullify and make sure debt is not a problem. However, debt is one, and not one you can walk around with. My opponent forgot, the expense of living.

http://www.numbeo.com... States

In fact, remember tuition is not the only thing needed from ivy league colleges.

My opponent`s costs are off. My opponent says "ivy league fees average 55,00". Actually, This ivy-league student has up to $90,000 debt. Even she recommends small colleges. She also says it In`t something she can brush off.

http://mic.com...

The student debt cannot be played off easily as the opponent says. Student debt is currently up to $1,000,000,000,000 right now. To speak truth, this passes the credit card debt, since 2010. To continue, the student debt rises and still rises, just look at a difference between 1900 and now! Also this source Proves that it`s not one person, as my opponent thinks, that is facing a unemployment problem. Just read the first page.

http://us.milliman.com...

My opponent also says that the most projected job growth IS NOT the jobs with most openings. My opponent failed to see my point. I did not want the jobs with most openings, I purposefully went for the most projected job growth. Job growth is of more importance then openings. Also, my opponent says "This shows that not anyone in the world can get around with just an associates degree, and those who can are very lucky." However, I will show that not anyone in the world can get around with an ivy league education, and those who can will face debt.

My opponent says that you have to go to ivy-league to find the job that suits you. I, however, don`t see what this means. Someone who wants their jobs in arts should go to a liberal college for a number of reasons. biggest reason being one-to-one interaction. To back it up, art needs to be taught by professors, not assistants. That can only be found in small colleges. Get to know their professor well, vise versa, and have flexible classes , which can let you have more equipment and speciality, and the small colleges come in a neat package!

source: https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org...

So to wrap this all up in a neat package like small colleges, harvard or princeton may sound tempting, But know what you`re getting in befroe you dive in! Or else, you may soon find the water is a scald.
Debate Round No. 3
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
thanks!
Posted by ConceptEagle 1 year ago
ConceptEagle
By the way, both of you did an impressive job of researching.
Posted by ConceptEagle 1 year ago
ConceptEagle
Voters vote based on the content of the debate -sections outside of the debate are extraneous.
Posted by greatkitteh 1 year ago
greatkitteh
I kindly ask the voters not to penalize evospire`s conduct for spamming.
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
I am really sorry. My computer is laggy and it spammed the comments.
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
This is my first official debate.org debate. And I would like to thank ConceptEagle for helping me around. Please Vote!
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
This is my first official debate.org debate. And I would like to thank ConceptEagle for helping me around. Please Vote!
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
This is my first official debate.org debate. And I would like to thank ConceptEagle for helping me around. Please Vote!
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
This is my first official debate.org debate. And I would like to thank ConceptEagle for helping me around. Please Vote!
Posted by evospireX 1 year ago
evospireX
To be honest. I myself would like to pursue an ivy-league school so that I can start something like the Gates Foundation. I believe that the wealth needs to be spread a little more, and that studying hard now can impact the world later. Plus, my whole gig about fancy cars was not meant to push anyone. But I come from a family that pushes these kind of materialistic goals.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by ConceptEagle 1 year ago
ConceptEagle
evospireXgreatkittehTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro stated that ivy-league universities can help with employment because of the prestige that shows up on the resumes, which results in better paying jobs for those that work hard to get in and graduate. Con refutes this by saying that there are many good jobs out there that do not require such degrees and brings up the burden of student debt, commonly made by ivy-leagues. Pro then says that ivy-league is made cheaper to most students that enter through aids and scholarships, and that many students come from affluent backgrounds. The fact that there is a greater chance of getting a high-paying job due to an ivy-league school still stands unrefuted by a reliable source or study.