The Instigator
nephilim
Con (against)
Tied
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The Contender
the_seraphim
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Is loyalty a virtue if not told the difference between right and wrong?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/23/2010 Category: Religion
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,405 times Debate No: 12118
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (14)
Votes (1)

 

nephilim

Con

Alright first of all a priority of what is free will.

This we all know from our first moments. Although schemes before conscience occur as entertainment and opinions before us we are folk of truth. An aware man knows to differ truth from lie. The moments we are told about; and in most cases comprehend right and wrong our superiority exceeds nature and we are worthy of conscience. However our perception of what is right and wrong may sometimes differ from a publicly and culturally accepted viewpoint and judgement may appear as a road to more profound and corrected behavior.

Then a public excuse for mischief.

If you've acted improperly or done something wrong is there a point in defending yourself with a desire for forgivance? If your parents did and or didn't you've probably learned. Besides school, church and experience certainly teaches us to be loyal to our society and cultural ideals as well as parents. If a change is on it's way which improves and or destroys a society and it's ideals, try to inform independently figuring a way to perceive a just and respectful society is established ahead of my time and should not be exchanged for new ideals of a public good. The essence of loyalty is to respect and obey the elders of society. They know best. If you feel for an argument about your ideals confer your parents. They know you best and while not questioning your loyalty they may or may not concur a change of your ideals. When you are an adult or grown man you should be better suited for life more or less on your own if you have confidence from your parents, your friends and the public eye.

Further a love story.

Know law. Know an intrigue. Know sometimes suspicion and revenge plot an example for power or dominion in the eyes of our watchers or the public eye. These manners or impressions occur when competition concludes the estimate to be perceived in comparison with our fellow. In a public sense a rumour for and or against you. If you've failed to impress the observers try to be invisible or start over by excuse and a humble approach to reassure fellow men and women you're mischief won't happen again. Sometimes a punishment or experience of what you've done wrong against your fellow occurs and may feel hard on you though you learn and your place in a public society may be once again restored to a respected and dignified position in a gentleman's idealist competition. Such as winning and loosing a game of chess or football with the same face. However society is not a game of chess or football and if you venture into deeds unacceptable there is nothing to do but accept your punishment. Further on this after a reached and settled reformation to return into public society as a dignified and respected man you should know some don't forget and forgive. If however your deeds of mischief where done to compete and impend upon society a more just set of right and wrong don't let your speak for yourself (public or in court) be destroyed into a manner of superficial opinions about you, the manner they are impressed by your public appearance and stature. In a sense if you have reached an opinion your set of ideals are more just than what is accepted today don't let society break you into being what they tell you are in some occasion a bad example. Intrigues and slander in politics is not uncommon as politics is a competitive art of reaching agreements. If your rumour is bad don't put your privacy on display; a secret is best when it's kept hidden. I could say there are no such thing as a man or woman in complete truth or totally free of sin. This is a fundament of forgivance which however as we learn from an early age terrified or not by this knowing we should obey our parents and respect our fellow men. If you happen to have done something wrong you loose respect and cease to be loyal to your parents, society's ideals and what is known as public good. To repent your sins requires another form of loyalty perhaps better known as to obey and repent your sins. And God forgives.

Conclusion: God grants us free will however it may be understood differently as God is not a totalitarian slave owner directing us. Free will in the eyes of a human observer may therefore be conceived and understood differently. May therefore the hoar of Babylon be understood as God's grant of free will upon humanity? Is free will a punishment or our Lord's grace?

Question to you my adversary is: As God's will on earth described ended in the forbidden fruit of Paradise would you understand notorious mischief as lack of knowledge and conscience or frailty and week by nature. A man less in the grace of our Lord? And isn't part of God's lesson for us to forgive one another our mischief and get along once again? The idealist who attempts perfection strives after something no man or woman to my knowledge has ever achieved. Should not free will accompany forgivance and loyalty be a second chance?

(This is a further look into my thesis and upcoming novel "A constant paradox" which although more thought upon than written I have shared some threads on here at debate.org.)
the_seraphim

Pro

Let me start by defining the concept of 'free will'.

Free will is the process of having no pre-determined 'destiny' and being able to choose your actions based upon your own experiences and preferences.

Loyalty is when one person or group of people decide that they will follow another person or group of people regardless of their failings/mistakes.

Without free will, there can be no loyalty, only the equivalent of indentured servitude or slavery as there is no other choice, infact there is no process for choosing.

I have a dog, he does not understand the concept of right or wrong beyond a few pavlovian trained responses and yet he is loyal, i consider that a virtue of the species.

Loyalty would be a virtue even in the case of an uneducated barbarian, he does not know right from wrong but he chooses to follow you for whatever reason, perhaps you have resources he cannot get on his own, or cannot defend on his own.

My opponent's argument is difficult to follow, not least because of an apparent lack of understanding of the english language but also because his/her argument confuses the issue of loyalty being or not being a virtue with the acceptance of forgiveness and God's will. Also his/her argument answers questions with questions, glides over the actual subject of the debate and if I have read his/her closing statement is arguing the position of For in the guise of Against.

In conclusion: Regardless of the level of understanding of the person in question with regards to morality and right/wrong loyalty is a virtue, perhaps the person is of less value but their loyalty is as good as anyones.

My question to my adversary is this: Considering how each person, regardless of upbringing and teaching, eventually grasps at least the concept of action/reaction their loyalty is a virtue of their subjects ability to inspire loyalty in others!
Debate Round No. 1
nephilim

Con

Your question to me seems to be whether I doubt we are born with free will.

Question or no free will certainly varies in manner.

Loyalty may be a demand. Therefor requires no free will in your dog.

Suppose human interaction then. Is free will required in a demand? Is free will required to know the difference between right and wrong?

These two questions in essence describes profoundly what foretold in Round 1.

Now to answer your question: If all I was ever taught were to obey and never raise a question of doubt I would be a good dog.
the_seraphim

Pro

Loyalty can be demanded, but then it is no longer loyalty.

Loyalty is when someone chooses to stick with you for better or for worse, forcing someone to be loyal is a contradiction in terms.

you can force someone to do things that may make them seem loyal, but they are not actually loyal they are slaves.

free will is required for loyalty but knowledge of right/wrong is not
Debate Round No. 2
nephilim

Con

nephilim forfeited this round.
the_seraphim

Pro

the_seraphim forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
nephilim

Con

nephilim forfeited this round.
the_seraphim

Pro

the_seraphim forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
nephilim

Con

nephilim forfeited this round.
the_seraphim

Pro

the_seraphim forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
It was pretty obvious...to some people... :)
Posted by Wayfarer 7 years ago
Wayfarer
@ alto2osu: I'm glad you got it!
Posted by alto2osu 7 years ago
alto2osu
@ Wayfarer: Hahahahahahahaahahahahahaha.
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
sorry that's "easy rider"
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
I'd say Rambo's a better example of the jerks that make up society.

he was just passing through... and the dude takes him to jail and trys to beat the sh*t out of him.

or the movie 'free rider' where the dude gets shot off the motorcycle for no reason but that he was passing through...
Posted by mattrodstrom 7 years ago
mattrodstrom
belle, is the "live simply" bit also supposed to imply that they cannabalized random people??
Posted by Cogito-ergo-sum 7 years ago
Cogito-ergo-sum
I will accept, if Nephilim is okay with that? Unless you had someone else in mind, Nephilim? Just need to check whether I will be available for all the rounds.
Posted by belle 7 years ago
belle
see: the xfiles, season one. "jersey devil". if you try to live simply, on your own, and away from other humans (in a forest or otherwise isolated area) they shoot you. sad :(
Posted by Korashk 7 years ago
Korashk
///One human cannot survive simply on his or her own...///

Lol
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 7 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
Resolution, I get the faint feeling Wayfarer was doing some elaborate sexual innuendo there.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Ragnar 4 years ago
Ragnar
nephilimthe_seraphimTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: FAIL DEBATE, as both sides dropped out... (checking the voting period debates, from Least To Most votes. By giving this one, it won't be prioritized in the system anymore.)