The Instigator
mickeymudge
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MrJosh
Con (against)
Winning
24 Points

Is religion a socially engineered virus?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
MrJosh
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/17/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 610 times Debate No: 56749
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (1)
Votes (4)

 

mickeymudge

Pro

I can't possibly fit the contents of my argument in this little box. Please read my website. It will take about an hour. Very educational. I'm giving a month to vote on this, as much as I would like an answer tomorrow, I know it has to be fair.
http://itsthetooth.wix.com....

My basic arguments here are as follows:

Can human beings actually be created from dust?
Were Adam and Eve created, or abducted, memory's erased, then lied to?
Can tree's have the ability to give knowledge, and can they have eye's or did the eating of the fruit spark previous memory, making them realize they were naked? If not why did they not realize their sins until AFTER they had eaten the fruit, despite being told not to do so?
Is Ecologist Dr.Ellis Silver wrong in his findings that Earth is not our home?
Was the chariot in the Ezekiel chapter what we know to be a UFO? If not what was it, and why was it visioned as a shiny metal object flying through the sky?
If such things as UFO's did exist, would they be piloted by aliens? Why not?
Is, or isn't Isaiah 6:8> explaining to be an ability we once had known as remote viewing, or perceive, or visions? and if not, then what were they explaining?
Does the 118 versus listed on my site prove that the only common found meaning to the term vision(s), is the ability to remotely view?
Is Dr. Michael Persinger also wrong that people have the ability to remote view?
Is the government also lying, claiming to have employed remote viewers in the past as spy's?
Did the punishment in the tower of babel, erase our ability to retain the same language, or was it the removal of a primary supernatural ability known as telepathy that would be universal amongst all humanoids, forcing us to now use our mouths to speak, and force us to create our own languages?
Was Erich Von Daniken wrong with his direction that the bible is filled with supernatural events, and advanced technology?
How could God have created us approximately 6,000 years ago, while our Mitochondrial DNA indicates that our species must have been alive anywhere from 174,000 to 575,000 years prior to that, possibly more? Where were we living during those years?
When God abducted all the life that he placed on our planet, does this not explain why we are now in the 6th largest mass extinction, losing 98% of all life? If you have a solid reason why, can you also explain why our scientists aren't privy to it? My excuse is that no one wants to admit that God was a space alien.
Was the misconception of God always being all around us, and privy to all of our thoughts and prayers because he had the ability to hover invisible while using an ability that could read minds?
Some people today have special ability's, most don't. Almost always, these people undergo physiological and imaging testing, but the results never reveal why they have ability's, and most others don't. If God was a frequent sub creator that used DNA manipulation, could our 98% dormant DNA be from punishments and damage he has dealt us, through DNA, in an effort to control us? If not, why?

I'm going to stop here, but thought I would have enough to debate over, to make this as broad and fair as I could. If anyone disagrees with these findings, please give a logical, re-searchable reason why. I seriously don't want to accept that you know something because you feel Jesus in your heart. Nothing subjective please.
MrJosh

Con

I would like to thank PRO for setting up this debate. This is a departure from the sorts of things I usually engage in on this site, so I expect it will be interesting. Since PRO is taking the affirmative position on the resolution, “Is religion a socially engineered virus?,” he has the burden of proof. It is my position that there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that religion is a socially engineered virus.


In his first round comments, PRO has stated numerous questions which he claims are his arguments. However, these are not arguments, they are questions. An argument is “A reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong” [1]. I imagine that this is just a misunderstanding of terminology, and look forward to PRO’s arguments in support of his initial proposition in the subsequent round.


Source


[1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com...





Debate Round No. 1
mickeymudge

Pro

Human beings most likely can't be created from dust?
Adam and Eve were not created, they were abducted, memory's erased, then lied to. Forced into submission through DNA punishments, and removal of our supernatural abilities. This is proven by the bible indicating that we are intelligent supernatural design.Through which a socially engineered virus was born.
This is proven by the fact that most people refuse to believe in any other possibilities other than what belief teaches them.
Tree's don't have the ability to give knowledge, and they don't have eye's, and eating of the fruit sparked previous memory, making them realize they were naked. This fact was proven because they didn't realize their sins until after they ate the fruit, despite being told by God before hand, not to eat it.
Ecologist Dr.Ellis Silver is correct in his findings that Earth is not our home?
The chariot in the Ezekiel chapter is whats known to be a UFO.
Isaiah 6:8> is explaining an ability we once had known as perceive, aka, remote viewing, or perceive, or visions.
The 118 versus listed on my site prove that the only common found meaning to the term vision(s), is the ability to perceive or remotely view, or have visions.
Dr. Michael Persinger is correct that some people have the ability to remote view.
The government is not lying, claiming to have employed remote viewers in the past as spy's.
The punishment in the tower of babel, was a removal of one of our primary supernatural ability's known as telepathy that is well known to be found in reported accounts where people have been abducted. This punishment forced us to now use our mouths to speak, and forced us to create our own languages?
Erich Von Daniken is correct with his direction and findings that the bible is filled with supernatural events, and advanced technology?
God could NOT have created us approximately 6,000 years ago, while our Mitochondrial DNA indicates that our species must have been alive anywhere from 174,000 to 575,000 years prior to that, possibly more? We had to of been living somewhere else.
When God abducted all the life that he placed on our planet, it explains why we are now in the 6th largest mass extinction, losing 98% of all life, as the balance of life was not considered when God did this.
The misconception of God always being all around us, and privy to all of our thoughts and prayers was because he had the ability to hover invisible while using an ability that could read minds. Even though he disabled our Transmit on Telepathy, we were still able to communicate with him because we could hear his telepathy. This is only realized from reported abduction story's where some people claim their minds being scanned for thought.
Some people today have special ability's, most don't. Almost always, these people undergo physiological and imaging testing, but the results never reveal why they have ability's. God was a manipulator of EXISTING DNA, not new life, as witnessed by the four headed creature in the Ezekiel chapter.
God used DNA to punish us into submission in an effort to control us. This is also why the punishments would be handed down to our offspring.
MrJosh

Con

I thank PRO for his arguments this round. I would like to start with a few definitions:

The Argument from Ignorance Fallacy is basically when you have an unexplained event or situation, and therefore conclude that the explanation is X [1]. For example, if I leave my keys on my nightstand, and then return to see that they are not there, I have an unexplained situation. If I then conclude that my keys were stolen by pink pixies from space, I have committed the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.

An Argument by Assertion Fallacy is when no evidence is given for a claim, but it is simply stated as a fact [2].

A Non-Sequiter is an argument where the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises [3].

An Appeal to Authority Fallacy is when a claim is said to be true because an authority says it is true, not because of the facts [4].

On to the Arguments!

PRO has put a lot into his arguments, however, I am going do dismiss the vast majority of it because it is irrelevant to the actual resolution being discussed. I will address a few points that seem to actually be related to the resolution.

PRO has stated that Adam and Eve were not created, but that they were abducted; presumably by extraterrestrials. This is an Argument by Assertion. Unless this can be demonstrated we can dismiss it.

PRO has also stated that Adam and Eve were then forced into submission via “DNA punishments” (whatever that is), which apparently included a removal of supernatural abilities which they apparently had before this punishment. Argument by Assertion.

The “evidence” for these items offered is that the bible indicates that we are “intelligent supernatural design.” This is a Non-Sequitur, and an Appeal to Authority. Something is not true simply because the bible says it is, and even if we accept what the bible says (which I do not), the fact that we are of such design does not necessarily lead to the claim PRO is making.

Next, PRO makes the claim that “Through which a socially engineered virus was born.” He then claims that this assertion is proved by the fact that people “refuse to believe in any other possibilities other than what belief teaches them.” This is an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy as well as an Argument by Assertion; PRO has not given support to his claim, he is asserting that people’s refusal to believe (something he doesn’t explain), is explained by his previous comments about Adam and Eve.

Final Thoughts

Sadly, PRO has not presented much of a case for his resolution. Every point I discussed boiled down to logical fallacies. I look forward to more discussion in the coming rounds.

Sources

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://rationalwiki.org...
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org...(logic)
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org...

Debate Round No. 2
mickeymudge

Pro

I thank CO as well for his arguments this round. I wished we started off smoother but to be honest this will be my first debate ever, other than informal forums.

Back to the arguments.

I agree with Con, there has been a lot included from me to start which actually might be able to be solved much easier than I had though. Thank you for seeing this.

CON suggests Argument by Assertion. Of my example that Adam and Eve were not created, but that they were abducted; presumably by extraterrestrials.

My response to CON about this is that two events that followed creation in this chapter, produced enough evidens to support my claims.

They are:
Abduction and being informed of their alleged creator is substantiated by a finding of the second event, as well as dozens of others through out the bible. This includes treatment from the alleged creator of punishments, Usually through DNA, and the removal of parts of our naturally given supernatural ability's.
These are redundantly backed up through other parts of the bible. I can list a few. These were not cherry picked, they were random picked. I'm sorry if things are not in order.

The idea of them being Abducted is supported by the Ezekiel chapter where a vision is seen of God coming down from the heavens in a space craft. The idea that God was a space alien is based on the obvious presumption that aliens fly space crafts, based on millions of reports of Americans alone, claiming to have been abducted. While I'm willing to accept the fact that several people might have been dishonest in these claims, I'm also willing to admit that there are also many who probably refused to ever report an encounter.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Ezekiel
THE ENCOUNTER
"""""""""" 1:1" Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God." 2" In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, "3" The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in0the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him.
""""""""""" Ezekiel is among the exile community by the Chebar River and he sees a revelation from the Elohiym.

GLOWING SPINNING METALLIC CRAFT
""""""""""" 4" And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
""""""""""" A rushing windy great thundercloud like flying craft flew out of the north." The vehicle had the appearance of brilliant glowing fire all around it and the center of the illumination the vehicle was polished metal." See" "VEHICLE" and " TECHNOLOGY
http://bibleufo.com...

Unlike religion, there is no pay off for believing you ever got abducted. Some people might think they could get rich from a story, but there is only one story I know of where that might have happened, but it was only because there were also a group of co-workers to witness it as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

It wasn't until Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the forbidden tree, that they realized their sins. Of course this makes absolutely no sense. They were already warned not to eat from the tree. After doing so, then they realize they are naked. This scenario fits many reports from people in current time, that claim to have been abducted, but not to realize it until later. Typically there is something that sparks that memory. Returning to the scene by chance, or a familiar smell, or taste. In this case it's apparent that the taste of the fruit, recovered their memory, making them realize they were naked. It's not possible that trees give knowledge, nor is it possible that tree's have eyeballs.
The first suspicious event where god allegedly creates them, is now confirmed to be a hoax, as now it's obvious they were indeed abducted. These two elements happen to be the most commonly known occurrences with abductions, even to those that don't study or believe in the subject.
The fact that Adam and Eve were abducted is also redundantly backed up in Hebrews as well.
Faith for the Exile (vv. 13-16)

In the last few verses of this passage this is the perspective of these great figures of faith. Not only did they trust in God and try to be a part of what God was doing, they did so because they realized there was a God with a plan. They realized that there was more to life than living, dying, bricks, and mortar. They realized that earth is not our home" that this is only exile and God has more in store for us than this.[sic]
http://gspcsermons.blogspot.com...
The theory that humans are not from Earth is further backed up by agreement from Dr.Ellis Silver.
http://beforeitsnews.com...
Of course there is the blatantly obvious, that we only survive here because everything we do is in the form of adaptation. Adaptation, means we aren't in the natural aspect of all this life here on Earth.
My own opinion in the creation of planets and the life that sustain them, is that the only way life can exist for a long time on any given planet, is simply if all of the life works together in an Eco-balance. It's simply the ONLY way life can exist for great periods. This was only realized because of whats going on with our planet. While God claimed nothing was brought to Earth from our Home. God supplied us with all the life on this planet, obviously from other planets.
The Sixth Day: Creatures on Land
"28God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth." 29Then God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so."
http://biblehub.com...
While God made numerous mistakes, this was a big one. He didn't consider the need for the balance of life. As a result, we are now in the 6th largest mass extinction. Scientists are baffled as to why, because they are first assuming that all this life came from here, belongs here, and belongs together.A loss of 98% total. They will probably never figure this one out until they are willing to accept and understand that all this life was brought here.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Of course this also means that the religion that was forced onto us was fake as well. God was certainly not our real creator. Backed up by the murder, torture, and killing, and taking of our ability's described next.

Isaiah"s Commission from the Lord
8"And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for cus?" Then I said, "Here I am! Send me." 9"And he said, "Go, and say to this people:
d"""Keep on hearing,3 but do not understand;
keep on seeing,4 but do not perceive."
10" eMake the heart of this people fdull,5
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
glest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

This suggests several things. The first is that God is requesting to have an ability we posses known by no other description in the bible, as perceive, to be removed. Second, based on his explanation it's clear that this ability has something to do with seeing, as well as hearing. Through this process the remainder explains that this should cause us to focus more on whats left, especially to our faith in our hearts toward God.
Perceive is redundantly proven to have the meaning of a power or ability of remote visions, that God removed from us.
The definition of vision(s) is supported by the following 118 versus. While some could be ambiguous, some simply aren't.
Genesis 15:1
Genesis 46:2
Numbers 12:6
Numbers 24:4
Numbers 24:16
1 Samuel 3:1
1 Samuel 3:15
2 Samuel 7:17
1 Chronicles 17:15
2 Chronicles 9:29
2 Chronicles 32:32
Job 4:13
Job 7:14
Job 20:8
Job 33:15
Psalm 89:19
Proverbs 29:18
Isaiah 1:1
Isaiah 6:1
Isaiah 21:2
Isaiah 22:1
Isaiah 22:5
Isaiah 28:7
Isaiah 29:7
Isaiah 29:11
Jeremiah 14:14
Jeremiah 23:16
Jeremiah 24:1
Jeremiah 38:21
Lamentations 2:9
Lamentations 2:14
Ezekiel 1:1
Ezekiel 7:13
Ezekiel 7:26
Ezekiel 8:3
Ezekiel 8:4
Ezekiel 11:24
Ezekiel 12:22
Ezekiel 12:23
Ezekiel 12:24
Ezekiel 12:27
Ezekiel 13:6
Ezekiel 13:7
Ezekiel 13:8
Ezekiel 13:9
Ezekiel 13:16
Ezekiel 13:23
Ezekiel 21:29
Ezekiel 22:28
Ezekiel 40:1
Ezekiel 40:2
Ezekiel 43:3
Daniel 1:17
Daniel 2:19
Daniel 2:28
Daniel 4:5
Daniel 4:9
Daniel 4:10
Daniel 4:13
Daniel 7:1
Daniel 7:2
Daniel 7:7
Daniel 7:13
Daniel 7:15
Daniel 8:1
Daniel 8:2
Daniel 8:13
Daniel 8:15
Daniel 8:16
Daniel 8:17
Daniel 8:26
Daniel 8:27
Daniel 9:21
Daniel 9:23
Daniel 9:24
Daniel 10:1
Daniel 10:7
Daniel 10:8
Daniel 10:14
Daniel 10:16
Daniel 11:14
Hosea 12:10
Joel 2:28
Amos 7:1
Obadiah 1:1
Micah 3:6
Nahum 1:1
Habakkuk 2:2
Habakkuk 2:3
Zechariah 1:7
Zechariah 1:18
Zechariah 2:1
Zechariah 3:1
Zechariah 4:1
Zechariah 5:1
Zechariah 5:5
Zechariah 6:1
Zechariah 13:4
Matthew 17:9
Luke 1:22
Luke 24:23
Acts 2:17
Acts 9:10
Acts 9:12
Acts 10:3
Acts 10:9
Acts 10:17
Acts 10:19
Acts 11:5
Acts 12:9
Acts 16:9
Acts 16:10
Acts 18:9
Acts 26:19
2 Corinthians 12:1
Colossians 2:18
Revelation 1:9
Revelation 9:17
I'm sorry, I ran out of room, this understanding takes much more explanation than I think I'm going to possibly be able to fit in this debate. It's a very large picture. Otherwise, I could prove all.
MrJosh

Con

Thank you PRO, for your arguments this past round. I think I’ll take a different approach this time.

The scientific community has pretty much shown that the Adam and Eve story could not have happened [1][2][3]. This is a fact that is acknowledged by many Christians [4][5][6][7], and at least one Rabbi [8]. In fact, a recent poll showed that only 40% of Americans believe that Genesis account of Adam and Eve is historical [9], and this in a country where 81% of the population follows a religion that begins with the Genesis account [10]. (I am not basing my argument on the fact that many people no longer believe the Genesis account, I have included this information simply to show that it is not a fringe movement.)

If the Genesis account of Adam and Eve is not historical, PRO’s post hoc rationalization of the non-historical events can be discounted. In fact, PRO's entire argument seems to be a post hoc explanation of many of the mysterious or unexplainable aspects of the bible. Why not just use Occam's Razor [11] to just cut all of the non-supported bits instead of trying to justify them with further claims of dubious origin. I see no reason to believe PRO's claims.

Sources:

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov... +Common+Ancestor+of+Males+versus+Females#
[2] http://www.asa3.org...
[3] http://www.livescience.com...
[4] http://www.npr.org...
[5] http://www.theaustralian.com.au...
[6] http://biologos.org...
[7] http://biologos.org...
[8] http://www.cwi.org.uk...
[9] http://www.npr.org...
[10] http://religions.pewforum.org...
[11] http://en.wikipedia.org...'s_razor

Debate Round No. 3
mickeymudge

Pro

mickeymudge forfeited this round.
MrJosh

Con

I am going to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt and assume that he misjudged the time. I look forward to his comments in the final round.
Debate Round No. 4
mickeymudge

Pro

mickeymudge forfeited this round.
MrJosh

Con


I am sorry to see that PRO seems to have left the building. I am disappointed in that I was quite curious to see what direction this debate was going to take. I suppose I now know. PRO did not demonstrate his resolution. My only burden was to show that there was insufficient evidence to support PRO’s position; I believe I have done that.


Debate Round No. 5
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by Sagey 2 years ago
Sagey
I like how Con brings out the Fallacy Checklist in his second statement:
Funny how Religion is the oldest known Argument From Ignorance Fallacy and Appeal To False Authority Fallacy.
Both sides are exhibiting these and more Fallacies.
It's a bit like trying to judge the difference between two bowls of fallacy soup.
Which one has too much salt?
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
mickeymudgeMrJoshTied
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Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 years ago
dsjpk5
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Cold-Mind
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Vote Placed by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
mickeymudgeMrJoshTied
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