Is the Bible plagiarized?
Debate Rounds (5)
I also challenge him to prove that these Egyptian writings he quotes were written before the Bible quotes.
I also challenge him to prove that the authors of the Bible texts in question had opportunity and ability to do such copying.
I also challenge him to prove when, where, and by whom the plagiarism was done.
Good luck to my opponent, who will indeed fail miserably to fulfill his burden of proof.
1) The stones of archaeology were silent witnesses to the dramas of the past, and it was only after 1799, when the Rosetta Stone was discovered, that the ancient records could be deciphered. It took Jean-Fran"ois Champollion 20 years to decipher the ancient hieroglyphics from the Rosetta Stone. Here are exact verses from the Pyramid texts -->Akhenaten"s Hymn to Aten and Psalm 104 of the Hebrew Bible: Hymn to Aten (Your rays suckle every meadow.
When you rise, they live, they grow for you.
You make the seasons in order to rear all that you
The winter to cool them,
And the heat that they may taste you.
You have made the distant sky in order to rise
In order to see all that you do make.
While you were alone,
Rising in your form as the living Aten,
Appearing, shining, withdrawing or approaching,
You made millions of forms of yourself alone.
Cities, towns, fields, road, and river"
Every eye beholds you over against them,
For you are the Aten of the day over the earth...The world came into being by your hand,
According as you have made them.
When you have risen they live,
When you set they die.
You are lifetime your own self,
For one lives only through you.
Eyes are fixed on beauty until you set.
All work is laid aside when you set in the west.
But when you rise again,
Everything is made to flourish for the king . . .
Since you did found the earth
And raise them up for your son,
Who came forth from your body: the King of Upper
and Lower Egypt, . . . Akh-en-Aten, . . . and the
Chief Wife of the King . . . Nefert-iti, living and
youthful forever and ever.)
Psalm 104:19"25, 27"30: (The moon marks off the seasons,
and the sun knows when to go down.
You bring darkness, it becomes night,
and all the beasts of the forest prowl.
The lions roar for their prey
and seek their food from God.
The sun rises, and they steal away;
they return and lie down in their dens.
Then man goes out to his work,
to his labor until evening.
How many are your works, O Lord!
In wisdom you made them all;
the earth is full of your creatures.
There is the sea, vast and spacious,
teeming with creatures beyond number"
living things both large and small. . . .These all look to you
to give them their food at the proper time.
When you give it to them,
they gather it up;
when you open your hand,
they are satisfied with good things.
When you hide your face,
they are terrified;
when you take away their breath,
they die and return to the dust.
When you send your Spirit,
they are created,
and you renew the face of the earth.)
2) No one knows the exact date Psalms were written but I can show you when Akhenaten reigned ---> 1353"1336 BC, Amenhotep IV changed his name to Akhenaten, symbolizing the change from Amun worship to Aten worship (Amenhotep means "Amun is pleased"). Further evidence of Akhenaten's break with the old religion is that he shifted his capital from Luxor to a new capital Akhetaten. In a song written by Akhenaten to his god, there are 17 verses corresponding with Psalm 104.
3) & 4) I will now answer two questions at once...my source is Stolen Legacy a book written by G.M. James which can be found online for free...or if anyone wants it I can forward it in an email. It was a Habit of the Greeks to hellenize Kemetic (Egyptian) words by transliterating them and adding them to the Greek vocabulary...Modern Scientific Knowledge: A. The Ennead and the Nebular Hypothesis; B. The identity between the Sun God Atom and the atom of science...* PAGE 107 of SL, The Greeks had a habit that continued up until the New Testament (this means they practiced it in the Old as well!) times of borrowing words from nearby nations. In Acts of Apostles of the Greek Testament, Chapter 13 and verse 1, the word NIGER (blackman) in the name of Simeon the Negro is a Roman or Latin word (niger, nigra, nigrum) meaning black Simeon, of course, was an Kemetic Professor attached to the church of Rome. PAGE 113 SL, Roman emperors Theodosius & Justinian are responsible for the abolition of the Kemetic (Egyptian) Mystery System that is the culture system of black people, and for the establishment of Christianity for its perpetual suppression. Also on a side note: Greeks called the Kemetians "HOI AIGUPTOI" Black People! PAGE 117 SL, Ptolemy I Soter, commanded High Priest Manetho to write history of religion & philosophy of the Kemetians and this was done, and the volumes became the chief textbooks in the University of Alexandria. PAGE 118 SL, History tells us the Kemetians were the first to civilize the Greeks. Than it was the Phoenicians, finally Thrace. These nations were under the government of wise men who subdued the ferocity of the ignorant populace, not only by civil institutions but also strong religious influence, and fear of the Gods. The colonizers were called Cecrops from Egypt, Cadmus from Phoenicia, and Orpheus from Thrace. PAGE 119 SL, The doctrine of fire has been traced to Kemet (Egypt), whose Mystery System was a fire philosophy and who worshipped the God of Fire (Atum) in their pyramids. The word pyramid is a Greek word, whose derivative "pyr" means fire. This doctrine goes back to 35,000 B.C., Greeks were unknown until 900 B.C. with their first written document the Homer & The Odyssey
ANOTHER FEW EXAMPLES TO POINT OUT THE BIBLE IS STOLEN HISTORY:
Satan means wicked, adversary, the Kemetic God Set was the adversary of the resurrected God (eternal) Osiris. Set was jealous of his only son with Isis, Set battled with Prince Horus (Jesus) for many years. Lucifer means light (a circle of light) the same symbol as Atum-RA as a solar disk. The Holy trinity of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus is from Isis, Osiris, and Horus. The term EL like Elohim or El Shaddai come from the Greek which stole from Egypt's AR alphabet. The letter (L) replaced the letter (R) in later times. Proof of this is that the original name for the region west of the Nile Valley (N.West Africa) was called Ribu (Rybia). The Greeks named it LIBUE' which meant "land of Libu-now called Libya!" This can be researched right from the wikipedia. The first letter of the Hebrew Aleph Bet you will find the Kemetic God Ptah represented by the ox or bull which is called the Aleph in Hebrew. This begins the words of the God of Israel because Ptah (God who symbolizes physical creation) begins the Pantheon - he is the God of Sound; "the utterance" = 'IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD.' from the Bible. Words begin with Ptah's symbol. ISRAEL = IS (Isis) RA (Atum-RA) EL (BaEL or the God of Saturnalia=Saturday) hence the Hebrews practice or resurrect their worship and prayers on Saturday or Sabbath to Yahweh.
"If you refuse to believe UNTIL EVERY SHADOW OF UNCEARTIANTY AND EVERY POSSIBILITY OF DOUBT IS REMOVED you will never believe. THE DOUBT THAT DEMANDS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WILL NEVER YIELD TO FAITH. FAITH RESTS UPON EVIDENCE, NOT DEMONSTATION." Testimony for the Church, vol. 5; p. 68, Ellen G. White. June 20, 1882
"We must not defer our obedience UNTIL EVERY SHADOW OF UNCEARTIANTY AND EVERY POSSIBILITY OF MISTAKE IS REMOVED. THE DOUBT THAT DEMANDS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WILL NEVER YIELD TO FAITH. FAITH RESTS UPON PROBABILITY, NOT DEMONSTATION." Night Scenes in the Bible, Daniel Marsh 1868"1870
The words above in all capitals are what Ellen White (the Seventh-day Adventist prophet) plagiarized from Daniel Marsh, chaing the words "mistake" and "probability" to the words "doubts" and "evidence," but you can see from the rest of the sentece that it was still the same. This is the true face of plagiarism, and this is what we must find in this debate for Pro to win. However, there isn't even a single sentence in Psalm 104 that parallels the hymn to Aten in the way Mrs. White's writings paralleled Daniel Marsh'.
Psalm 104 shows no evidence of plagiarism. None of the sentences used in this psalm are direct quotes from the hymn to Aten. Some of the facts mentioned in this psalm found using totally different words in the hymn to Aten, but these facts are observable and obvious to most people and therefore need not be the result of any plagiarism but simply common knowledge that can be seen by anyone. Verse 19, who didn't know the moon marks season? Or that the sun knows when to go down? Who needed to make a trip to Egypt, learn to read heiroglyphic script, and copy of their sacred walls in order to know that when it becomes night certain beasts go on the prowl? (vs 20) Its an observable fact for Jews who encountered lions to see that lions roar for their prey. And any religion would credit their God with providing the food. (vs 21, 27, 28) Did Hebrews need Egyptians to tell them that lions lie in dens? (vs 22) Or that people labour till evening? (23) All religions who believe in a Creator have concepts of God or their gods creating all things, does this mean they ALL went to Egypt to copy this? (vs 24) With the amount of fishermen in Israel surely they observes large and small fish in the sea. (25) All of this is common sense. We don't need to plagiarize, anyone could figure this out.
(1) Pro failed to give a single sentence from the Bible which resembles word for word another sentence written by the Egyptians before it. If he has, I encourage him to highlight these two sentences in bold or all caps, just these two, so we may see them standin out. His text was very confusing to navigate.
(2) Pro only showed Psalm 104 contained some of the same CONCEPTS as the hymn to Aten, but this doesn't prove plagiarism. These concepts of nature are visible uinversally. Anyone can come to these same conclusions without plagiarism.
(3) Pro ignored the vast differences between these accounts which show them to be so dissimilar, that to claim plagiarism here is like saying that James Bond was plagiarized from Alice in Wonderland. Notice the how vastly different these stories are Pro is comparing:
Hymn to Aten says:
"YOUR RAYS suckle every meadow. When YOU RISE, they live...And the heat that they may taste you. You have made the distant SKY IN ORDER TO RISE THEREIN, In order to see all that you do make. While you were alone, RISING in your form as the living Aten, Appearing, SHINING, withdrawing or approaching....Eyes are fixed on beauty until YOU SET. All work is laid aside when YOU SET IN THE WEST."
Notice here the god Aten is actually their description of the sun, rising in the sky to shine down on the vegetation. The sun has to go into the sky "to see all that [he does] make." This is far from the God of Psalm 104, who is NOT the sun, but who created the sun. After discussing the moon and the sun in verse 19, the Psalmist says "In wisdom you made them all." (vs 24) Yahweh was not part of nature, he created nature. Psalm 102:25 says he made the heavens and the earth. "Praise Him, sun and moon, praise Him, all you shining stars...for He commanded and they were created." (Psalm 148:3-5) Psalm 90:2 teaches God has no beginning, but is from everlasting to everlasting. The Psalms are thus very different from pagan Egyptians that worshiped the sun. In Pslam 104 God doesn't rise or set, and he definitely doesn't set in the West.
Unlike Pslam 104, the hymn to Aten doesn't say the moon marks season, doesn't say the sun KNOWS when to set, doesn't mention beasts of the forest prowling nor lions and their prey, and in fact, Pslam 104 mentions God separately from the sun, while the hymn to Aten assumes the sun is God. "The lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God. The sun rises, and they steal away." This Psalm doesn't say the lions seek food from the sun, but from God. Then it mentions that they steal away when the sun rises. The Egyptian hymn doesn't mention the den of lions, the size of the sea, nor does it personify Aten as opening his hand as Psalm 104 personifies God in verse 28, nor does it speak of God having a face as in verse 29. Psalm 104:30 mentions God's Spirit as sharing in creation, but this too is absent from the hymn to Aten. So all the key elements are missing. This isn't plagiarism at all. Its like comparing apples and oranges! So I charge Pro to highlight for us in a clear what what exactly is the same between these accounts, then justify what that is plagiarism.
Pro says "It was a Habit of the Greeks to hellenize Kemetic (Egyptian) words by transliterating them and adding them to the Greek vocabulary." So what? English was derived out of Latan. We assimilated lots of their words. That doesn't prove that that Harry Potter was plagiarized from Dante's Inferno! So in Acts 13:1 Niger is a probably a black man, so how does this show plagiarism in the book of Acts? Because he was black that means the author of Acts copied his account from an Egyptian text? If so, please show me a single parallel to the book of Acts! Many white journalists mentioned Barrack Obama, a black man, but this doesn't mean their newspapers are plagiarized from Egypt. I think its a stretch of the imagination of assume plagiarism because a black man is mentioned in Acts 13.
Theodosius was born in 347 AD, and Justinian in 482, over 250 years after the Bible was already written, so their alleged influence which you have not proved, is irrelevant to your quest at proving that the original Bible writers plagiarized from Egyptian texts. These two men didn't write the Bible. All the books of the New Testament were already in existence and being quoted so extensively by the church fathers before the birth of these two men, that we can reconstruct the entire New Testament from their quotes alone. Clement (30- 95 A.D.), Ignatius (70-110 A.D.) and Polycarp (70-156 A.D.), quoted extensively from the New Testament, and some of them knew the Apostles personally. (McDowell"s Evidence That demands a Verdict, vol.1, 1972 pgs 50-51; 1990:48) We have Greek NT manuscripts dating to the 2nd century CE.
Pro claims "Holy trinity of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus is from Isis, Osiris, and Horus." Mary was never part of the Trinity in the Bible. (Matt 28:117-20) Tertullian (160-215 CE): "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.... They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit," (Adv. Prax. 23, PL 2.156-7).
Pro gave no quotes to show parallels for any of his other claims outside Psalm 104, thus, its conjecture! Pro hasn't fulfilled his burden of proof.
"Because of time and wear many of the historical documents from the ancient world have few manuscripts to which we can refer. This is specially true when we consider the secular historians and philosophers. For instance, we only have eight copies of Herodotus"s historical works, whose originals were written in 480-425 BC. Likewise, only 5 copies of Aristotle"s writings have found their way to the 20th century, while only 10 copies of the writings of Caesar, along with another 20 copies of the historian Tacitus, and 7 copies from the historian Pliny, who all originally wrote in the first century, are available today 1. These are indeed very few.
When we consider the New Testament, however, we find a completely different scenario. We have today in our possession 5,300 known Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, another 10,000 Latin Vulgates, and 9,300 other early versions (MSS), giving us more than 24,000 manuscript copies of portions of the New Testament in existence today! 2. Though we do not have any originals, with such a wealth of documentation at our disposal with which to compare, we can delineate quite closely what those originals contained....
(2) Available Manuscripts:
A further criticism concerns whether the copies we possess are credible. Since we do not possess the originals, people ask, how can we be sure they are identical to them? The initial answer is that we will never be completely certain, for there is no means at our disposal to reproduce the originals. This has always been a problem with all known ancient documents. Yet this same question is rarely asked of other historical manuscripts which we refer to constantly. If they are held to be credible, let"s then see how the New Testament compares with them. Let"s compare below the time gaps for the New Testament documents with other credible secular documents.
There were several historians of the ancient world whose works are quite popular. Thucydides, who wrote History of the Peloponnesian War, lived from 460 BC to 400 BC. Virtually everything we know about the war comes from his history. Yet, the earliest copy of any manuscripts of Thucydides" work dates around 900 AD, a full 1,300 years later! The Roman historian Suetonius lived between AD 70 to 140 AD. Yet the earliest copy of his book The Twelve Caesars is dated around AD 950, a full 800 years later. The chart below reveals the time gaps of these and other works from the ancient world and compares them to the earliest New Testament manuscripts 5."
Herodotus (History) written 480- 425 BC, earliest surviving copy 900 AD, 1,300 yearsafter the original, only 8 copies extant.
Thucydides (History) written 460 -400 BC, earliest surviving copy 900 AD, 1,300 years after the original.
Aristotle (Philosopher) written 384 -322 BC, earliest surviving copy 1,100 AD, 1,400 years after the original, only 5 copies extant
Caesar (History) written 100- 44 BC, earliest surviving copy 900 AD, 1,000 years after the original, only 10 copies surviving
Pliny (History) written 61-113 AD, earliest surviving copy 850 AD, 750 years after the original, only 7 copies still around
Suetonius (Roman History) written70-140 AD, earliest surviving copy 950 AD, over 800 years after the original
Tacitus (Greek History) written 100 AD, earliest surviving copy 1,100 AD, over 1,000 years after the original, only 20 copies extant
Biblical Manuscripts: (note: these are individual manuscripts)
Magdalene Ms (Matthew 26)written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 50-60 AD, probably co-existant with the original
John Rylands (John) written 90 AD, earliest surviving copy 130 AD, only 40 years after the original
Bodmer Papyrus II (John)written 90 AD, earliest surviving copy 150-200 AD, only 60-110 years after the original
Chester Beatty Papyri (N.T.) written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 200 AD, that's 150 years after the orignal
Diatessaron.... (Gospels) written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 200 AD, just 150 yearsafter the original
Codex Vaticanus (Bible) written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 325-350 AD, that 275-300 yearsafter the original
Codex Sinaiticus (Bible)written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 350 AD, 300 years after the original
Codex Alexandrinus (Bible) written 1st century, earliest surviving copy 400 AD, that's 350 years after the original
"(Total New Testament manuscripts = 5,300 Greek MSS, 10,000 Latin Vulgates, 9,300 others = 24,000 copies)
(Total MSS compiled prior to 600 AD = 230)
What one notices almost immediately from the table is that the New Testament manuscript copies which we possess today were compiled very early, a number of them hundreds of years before the earliest copy of a secular manuscript. This not only shows the importance the early Christians gave to preserving their scriptures, but the enormous wealth we have today for early Biblical documentation.
What is even more significant however, are the differences in time spans between the original manuscripts and the copies of both the biblical and secular manuscripts. It is well known in historical circles that the closer a document can be found to the event it describes the more credible it is. The time span for the biblical manuscript copies listed above are all within 350 years of the originals, some as early as 130-250 years and one even purporting to coexist with the original (i.e. the Magdalene Manuscript fragments of Matthew 26), while the time span for the secular manuscript copies are much greater, between 750-1,400 years! This indeed gives enormous authority to the biblical manuscript copies, as no other ancient piece of literature can make such close time comparisons." https://www.google.com...
Now, the point of all this is to show that the Bible manuscripts are better off than the writings of all the classical historians of antiquity we know; so if we are going to throw out the Bible because we don't have the originals, we have to throw these other writings out as well, which would leave us with very little information about ancient Greece, Rome, Persia, Babylon, and many other places. The history section of our libraries would be very small if we did that. Amali Cabral prefers to throw out all of written history except what he finds in Egypt. This is not rational.
He demanded a name on an ancient scroll so we know who wrote it. The manuscripts I listed above has the names of Paul, Matthew, John and others on them. Yet he doesn't accept this. 1 Cor 1:1,2.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 11 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro tried to get out of this DDO debate by changing the venue to Google hangouts in the middle of debate. This is poor conduct.
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