The Instigator
Jikpamu
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
dairygirl4u2c
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

Is the Bible right when it says not to have sex outside of marriage & only between a man & a woman?

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Jikpamu
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/13/2014 Category: Science
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 698 times Debate No: 56558
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Jikpamu

Pro

1 Corinthians 6:18 (New International Version 2011)
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

Mark 10:6-9 (New International Version 2011)
Mk 10:6 "But at the beginning of creation God "made them male and female."
Mk 10:7 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
Mk 10:8 and the two will become one flesh." So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Mk 10:9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate."

I believe the Bible is correct that sex is only valid in the confines of marriage between a man and a woman. If you disagree then let's debate... : )
dairygirl4u2c

Con

no where does the bible explicitly forbid premarital sex. it has prohibitions on 'fornication', but that only means 'unlawful sex'. that doesn't necessarily include premarital sex. in fact, in the old testament when it is listing various sins including sexual sins, it doesn't mention premarital sex. if it was wrong, you'd think it'd be included.

also, the book of ruth has connotations that perhaps the couple who are idealized in the bible had sex before marriage. while not definitive, it is still possible to likely. they at least got sexually engaged.
http://szezeng.blogspot.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Jikpamu

Pro

1) In the case of the Book of Ruth...even then Ruth and Boaz did not have sex outside of marriage albeit what they did I would consider dangerous.

2) Google Definitions on Fornication: sexual intercourse between people not married to each other - so even Google disagrees with you definition on fornication

3) See the example of Joseph in Genesis and how he fled sexual temptation with Potiphar's wife

4) See the example of King David and Bathsheba in 2 Samuel Chapter 11 of someone who did have sex outside of marriage and whom God punished very severely - read several chapters later as to what happened to him and his family

5) See Jesus' definition of Marriage in Mark 10:6-9 which also comes from the 1st 2 chapters in Genesis

You clearly cannot say that the Bible okays premarital sex...

6) Job 31:1 (New International Version 2011)
Job 31:1 "I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a young woman.

Even Job who was married would not look lustfully at a young woman and thus be unfaithful to his wife.

7) Matthew 5:32 (New International Version 2011)
Mt 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

8) Matthew 5:27-28 (New International Version 2011)
Mt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery."
Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

9) Exodus 20:14 (New International Version 2011)
Ex 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery. [Ten Commandments]

10) Google Defintions on Adultery: voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Both the Bible and Google disagree with you : )
dairygirl4u2c

Con

the example of Joseph was an example of adultery. the bible says that adultery is wrong. i am referring to premarital sex.

i don't see anything of note in the Samuel chapter. all i see is a reference to David making love to his wfe. care to enlighten me?

Jesus defined marriage, but he didn't say anything about sex before marriage.

the matthew verse says you can't divorce and draws issues with adultery. this isn't premarital sex.

the other matthew verse. it talks about adultery. it doesn't say anyone who does that commits fornication. etc. it means something inordinate. it means if you could and would, even if you don't, it is still wrong. how does a single person commit adultery when they look at someone lustfully?

Job chapter says the man was married. it says if he gets too enticed by another woman, may another man sleep with his wife. this doesn't sound like a beacon of what we should aspire to. he does say he doesnt want to look lustfully at another woman, but what does that mean? it means he doesn't want to have an inordinate desire. it means he doesn't want to have the desire to do it and would do it if he could, even if he doesn't.

a google definition only shows what our culture defines as fornication. traditionally, it almost never means premarital sex.
http://www.yrm.org...

In fact, it's real usage is traditionally much narrower. modern conservatives have expanded it:
"Strong's Concordance gives 19th century meanings to Greek and Hebrew words found in the Bible. It describes "pornea," as having a somewhat broader usage in Biblical times, compared to today. When used literally, it includes three activities: prostitution, adultery and incest. Figuratively it means idolatry, or sexual intercourse between unmarried persons. However, most conservative Christian churches have greatly expanded the English term "fornication." It is to them a catchall term"
http://www.religioustolerance.org...
Debate Round No. 2
Jikpamu

Pro

Joseph when he became Vizier of Egypt married the Priest of On's daugther. So before he was Vizier, before he was in prison, he was the chief servant of Potiphar. He was not married then when Potiphar's wife approached him for sex of which he fled from her presence and did not have sex with her. What Joseph did proves the following passage's wisdom:

1 Corinthians 6:18 (New International Version 2011)
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

Here is the relevant passage regarding King David and Bathsheba:

2 Samuel 11:2-4 (New International Version 2011)
2Sa 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful,
2Sa 11:3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite."
2Sa 11:4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home.

The King James English uses the word fornication twice in Matthew and once in John (here is one of them):

Matthew 5:32 (King James Version)
Mt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

The NASB and NKJV uses the word fornication in the Gospel of John (8:41)...

The Bible is very clear in multiple places that if you covet another person or lust after them you have already adulterated or fornicated with them from your heart.

In re: Job, he made a covenant to not look lustfully at another woman. I don't quite understand your point on this one.

Remember the question Re: yrm.org: Is the Bible right when it says not to have sex outside of marriage? Out of space...
dairygirl4u2c

Con

dairygirl4u2c forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
Jikpamu

Pro

If you forfeit you are admitting defeat...is that what you are doing? : )

Are you going to let me win that easliy?
dairygirl4u2c

Con

if someone's wife approaches you for sex, that is adultery. we don't need the joseph verse to establish that, as even Jesus says so.

the 1 corinthians verse merely refers to sexual immorality. it doesn't define it, nor mention anything about premarital sex.

in fact, i showed authority that says fornication means unlawful sex, which probably doesn't include premarital sex. we have no reason to think sexual immorality is anything more than unlawful sex. it was only religious conservatives who changed the definition of fornication, as cited earlier.

what point do you have with the david verse? if anything, he had sex with a woman. that looks like an unmarried sexual act, doesn't that show it was done in the bible days? whatever you want to extrapolate from it, all we can deduce was someone had sex and it doesn't look to involve marriage. i must be missing what your point is.

you merely assert that the bible says if you lust, you commit fornication. Jesus used the word adultery. and you haven't addressed why he used adultery when he could have said fornication? probably because he was referring to restricting married people, not others.
ad he didn't really say what he meant by lust over. he probably was talking about "if you could and would, it doesn't matter that it actually played out that you didn't". or something inordinate.
also, the earlier example of someone averting their eyes so as not to lust, in the bible, simply shows that it was the modest thing for them to do. not necessarily that it was the moral standard of what necessarily is right or wrong. many conservatives play down things they don't like just because it was cultural, there's no reason this couldn't be played down as merely a cultural thing too.
Debate Round No. 4
Jikpamu

Pro

I noticed you didn't really cite the Bible this time around. Btw this is what Matthew has to say about lusting and adultery:

Matthew 5:27-28 (New International Version 2011)
Mt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery."
Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Adultery (Google) - voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Fornication (Google) - sexual intercourse between people not married to each other.

Adultery, Fornication, Homosexuality, Incest, Bestiality, and sex during a woman's period are all types of sexual immorality which are defined in Leviticus 18: the chapter about unlawful sexual relations or "sexual immorality".

You get the last word and have an awesome day : ) God bless...
dairygirl4u2c

Con

"the Greek word usually translated "lust" in this passage (O52;`0;_3;_2;`5;_6;^1;`9;; epithume") happens to be the same word used to translate the Hebrew word for "covet" (R07;חמד) in the Tenth Command in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament), which says: "You will not covet your neighbor"s wife. You will not covet your neighbors house or his field or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or any animal which is your neighbor"s.""

in fact, webster's: covet: 'desire what belongs to another inordinately or culpably'

so is con the type that says we can't even have a desire to have a nice car, like our neighbor John has? that so many even fundamentalist christians teach that covet isnt that simple,shows that we have to e careful with teh word covet. should we just assume they overlook that teaching as something they dont like?
it makes more sense to think covet means best fixing one"s desire upon obtaining something that is not rightfully one"s own, inordinate desire, 'you would if you could so it doesn't matter that you didn't' etc.

and what about 'lusting' over a woman? Greek word for "woman" and "wife" happens to be the same. so could Jesus be referrin to someone's wife? wouldn't that make the adultery usage actually make sense? (we haven't figured out a sensical reason why he used adultery, and con has ignored the point) it would make it make more sense, cause adultery has to do with wives etc. it does't settle the 'lust' 'covet' debate, but it narrows the scope.

the fact that he uses adutlery helps show that it was unlawful acts he was railing against. it's wrong to fix your heart on acquring someting that is forbidden. again, he didn't use the word premarital sex, and didnt even use the words fornication or sexual immorality.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Jikpamu 2 years ago
Jikpamu
I 100% agree with your Bible-approved post LifeMeansGodIsGood : )
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Colosians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience for fornication among other things including covetousness.

All sex acts outside of marriage are wrong, even if only in your thoughts and imagination. (evil concupiscence.......evil desire)
Posted by LifeMeansGodIsGood 2 years ago
LifeMeansGodIsGood
The Bible clearly forbids all sex outside of marrage. To ignore this is only an attempt to excuse sexual sin.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by whiteflame 2 years ago
whiteflame
Jikpamudairygirl4u2cTied
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Total points awarded:40 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm really just confounded by the path Con took in this debate. I understand that it's a possibility to argue that Pro's premise of sex outside of marriage being problematic in the Bible, but yourself the burden of showing that the Bible never makes an argument about fornication outside of marriage. At the very least, by the end of this debate, I'm given solid reaosning to believe that, in some instances, this is problematic, even if those instances mainly involve adultery. It would have made sense to argue whether that view is right as well instead of sticking all of your eggs in one basket.
Vote Placed by GOP 2 years ago
GOP
Jikpamudairygirl4u2cTied
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited, but I didn't have the time to see the arguments yet.