The Instigator
Altercator
Pro (for)
Losing
11 Points
The Contender
I-am-a-panda
Con (against)
Winning
36 Points

Is the Christian God a gracious and just God?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/25/2009 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,387 times Debate No: 9335
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (11)
Votes (9)

 

Altercator

Pro

Many people say He isn't because He sends people to Hell. Some say He IS because He sends people to Hell.
I-am-a-panda

Con

I thank my opponent for this debate.

===DEFINITIONS===

Good: Morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious [http://dictionary.reference.com...]

Evil: Morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked [http://dictionary.reference.com...]

Gracious: Pleasantly kind, benevolent, and courteous [http://dictionary.reference.com...]

Cruel: Willfully or knowingly causing pain or distress to others. [http://dictionary.reference.com...]

God, in this debate, will have the properties of:

- Holiness (separate from sin and incorruptible)
- Justice (fair, right, and true in all his judgements
- Omnipotence (Unlimited Power) [http://en.wikipedia.org...]
- Omniscience (The capacity to know anything infinitely) [http://en.wikipedia.org...]
- Omnibelevolence (Unlimited Kindness and compassion) [http://en.wikipedia.org...]
- Omnipresence (Present everywhere) [http://en.wikipedia.org...]

Source = http://en.wikipedia.org...

===PROBLEM OF SATAN===

Firstly, the Christian God is taken as the creator of everything, as according to Genesis. Therefore, God is the creator of Satan and hell, and subsequently, eternal pain and suffering.

===PROBLEM OF RELIGION===

God, obviously, wants all his subjects to enter heaven. If he is omnipotent and omnibenevolent, he has the ability to cast out all religions and turn everyone to Christianity, the true religion. There is no reason for God to want to send people down to hell for simply worshipping him in the wrong way.

I hand the floor back to my opponent to refute my points.
Debate Round No. 1
Altercator

Pro

I see my opponents' view. God did, in fact, create Satan, but he was not created evil. He was the highest ranking angel in Heaven and the leader of worship. When Satan wanted to lift himself in a position above that of God, he was cast out of Heaven because of his pride, along with one-third of the angels who chose to follow him. In answer to my opponents' other point, God does want everyone to go to Heaven. The Bible says that, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (KJV) God cannot have sin in Heaven. That is why Satan was cast out. Hell was never meant for people, but for Satan to spend eternity. God does not send people to Hell. People send themselves there because of their refusal to accept God's free and gracious gift of Salvation.

I await my opponents' response.
I-am-a-panda

Con

I thank my opponent for his response:

"God did, in fact, create Satan, but he was not created evil. He was the highest ranking angel in Heaven and the leader of worship. When Satan wanted to lift himself in a position above that of God, he was cast out of Heaven because of his pride, along with one-third of the angels who chose to follow him"

--> Remember, God has both Omnipotence and Omniscience, which you did not object to. He would have known Satan would aspire to do what he did, and therefore would have destroyed him before he rebelled from God. A nice story, but the logic doesn't follow through.

"God does want everyone to go to Heaven. The Bible says that, "God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance." (KJV) ."

--> While this my be true, consider Native Americans. They lived for centuries, even Millennia, without knowing of this God. How can they be expected to turn towards God if they do not know of him?
Furthermore, why wouldn't God simply destroy Satan rather than casting him away?

"God cannot have sin in Heaven. That is why Satan was cast out. Hell was never meant for people, but for Satan to spend eternity. God does not send people to Hell. People send themselves there because of their refusal to accept God's free and gracious gift of Salvation"

--> Your logic is basically saying here:

- Hell is not for sinners, it is for Satan
- God doesn't send people to Hell. People send themselves to Hell.

This logic doesn't follow through. God has the choice of making the sinners redeem themselves. Say someone goes on your property. You have the ability to shoot him dead, but you could show him compassion and make him leave without shooting him. God has the exact same option.

Secondly, why would God create sin, other than a trap to end people to hell? God, being all powerful, could make a world without sin.

I await my opponents response
Debate Round No. 2
Altercator

Pro

God is indeed omniscient and omnipotent. He knew Satan would rebel against Him. God also knew that Adam and Eve would choose to disobey Him. God gave man the ability to have a free will. Think about if you said to someone you cared about, "Tell me you love me." You would get no gratification from telling some one to love you. You would, however feel loved if they came in and of themselves and told you, "I love you."

God is the same way. It would give Him no pleasure if He forced man to love and follow Him. He wants us to choose to do so.

About the people who "don't know" about God:

God placed within every person at their birth a desire to seek out their purpose in life, who created them and the world, etc. NOBODY can look at their surroundings and say that it "just happened". Why do you think evolutionists have still not proven their theories? God created the earth is why. The Bible says that a man cannot look at the creation and say their is no God. The creation speaks of its Creator. That is how people who have never heard may believe on God.

The world was without sin until Adam and Eve sinned against God. But God's mercy in sending His only Son Jesus Christ To die on the cross, bearing ALL of man kinds' sins, showed us that He wanted us to be in Heaven with Him. Instead of destroying humanity, He compassionately gives every man a chance to accept His FREE gift of Salvation. You and I hadn't done anything to deserve God's mercy, yet He shows it anyway.
I-am-a-panda

Con

I thank Altercator for this debate

"God is indeed omniscient and omnipotent. He knew Satan would rebel against Him. God also knew that Adam and Eve would choose to disobey Him. God gave man the ability to have a free will. Think about if you said to someone you cared about, "Tell me you love me." You would get no gratification from telling some one to love you. You would, however feel loved if they came in and of themselves and told you, "I love you."

--> 1) If God knew Satan would rebel against him, then it would be only logical to destroy him before he caused an inconvenience. God is all knowing, yet if I rule a country and I know of a rebellion, I know it's best to suppress it before they start rebelling. And I'm not all knowing.

2) God gave hum free will to choose if God exists or not, and what moral choices to make. Fair enough. It is not fair however to leave severe doubt that you exist. An all loving God would prove himself to each generation to clear any doubts and gather as many followers s possible. The bible however is not sufficient to refute this, as it was made by man, and contains errors.

"God is the same way. It would give Him no pleasure if He forced man to love and follow Him. He wants us to choose to do so."

--> See point 2 above

"God placed within every person at their birth a desire to seek out their purpose in life, who created them and the world, etc. NOBODY can look at their surroundings and say that it "just happened". Why do you think evolutionists have still not proven their theories? God created the earth is why. The Bible says that a man cannot look at the creation and say their is no God. The creation speaks of its Creator. That is how people who have never heard may believe on God."

--> You missed my point entirely. Native Americans lived for thousands of years believing in Gods which the Christian God would frown at. It may be feasible that he made a holy book to guide followers, but that was only in the middle east. It would be overtly cruel to not do this for people of a different continent.

I feel the various points I've made in this round sufficiently address my opponents last paragraph

CONCLUSION:
Remembering the various properties of god (Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnibenevolence, Omnipresence, Justice & Holiness)

- God created Satan knowing he would rebel against him. He then created hell where Satan tortures sinners. This is an act of evil

- God condemned people on foreign continents to hell because they never knew of Christianity. This is an act of evil.

Thanks for the debate again.
Debate Round No. 3
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by raylop80731 8 years ago
raylop80731
He has made it a point for us to share. He could only do so much and its up to us to spread the nation. So no I am sorry but God didnt condemn anyone not in the Middle East to hell.

I hope this made sense and sorry it was so long!
Posted by raylop80731 8 years ago
raylop80731
Ok some things I want to add here...I shall Round one alone.
Round two. Here comes fun!
Pro-->Good point with Satan but at the time of service as an angel he was called Lucifer. When Lucifer was at the point of him wanting to be God he was cast into hell given the name Satan and then was sentenced to torture forever. Hell wasnt meant for people but once sin entered with Adam and Eve we were all condemned to there until Jesus Christ came and died for our sins. God sends people to hell but its to his hurt that he does it. And it is about the refusal of Jesus Christ and the gift of Salvation.
Con--> True God is Omnipotence and Omniscience but because of free will he leaves up to us the choices of right and wrong. So God didnt know that Lucifer (Satan in angelic form) would sin. So God couldnt have stopped the Rebellion at all. As for the Native American Point well, they believed in a devine spirit that was to lead them. Being half way around the world and not even know of Jesus meant they had to get what they could from nature. You agreed in round 3 that Nature speaks of the Creator. To be fair Satan is here to separate the sheeps and the goats. In the end he will be locked up and chained for 1000 years. (Revalations) God didnt intend for sin to be created. That is just a factor of free will.
Round 3!
Pro-->Read above with the knowing of rebellion. Strong point with the love me tid-bit. When you say 'all of man kinds sin' realize that is all. The guy who trespasses on your land that you dont shoot and those Native Americans who so lovingly didnt know anything about Christ. Good round Pro!
Con-->Free will just brings in this huge thing that you really have a hard time wrapping your mind around. So he couldnt have supressed it. God doesnt leave doubt. He makes you believe by faith which is the main thing of Christianity. Have faith in God and He will do miracels thru you. As for the man part its God breathed bud. Tops man. He never condemned the foreign to hell.
Posted by Common_Sense_Please 8 years ago
Common_Sense_Please
What about all the horrible horrible things God has done and condoned in the Bible? Not a just person at all. In fact, If it were anyone else but 'God' then that person would be one of the most evil people to ever exist...
Posted by IrvingC 8 years ago
IrvingC
There is a slight problem, even if you're talking about Christianity specifically. Not all Christians believe in the Devil, Heaven, or Hell. This includes many sects in Protestantism and non-sectual Christianity. Even some Jewish sects don't believe in Heaven or Hell, furthermore this question cannot be debated, because the concept of good and evil are subjective, and in Christianity whatever the Bible says is the chosen morality, so anything God does is good no matter what your opinion is, it's impossible to debate this topic.
Posted by Maikuru 8 years ago
Maikuru
C: Tie
S&G: Con - Pro's presentation seemed lazy and inconsistent, especially when compared with Con's well organized arguments.
A: Con - Like his presentation, Pro's case suffered from a lack of depth and clarity. Con's case was hardly ironclad but no suitable counterarguments were presented.
S: Tie
Posted by unlikely 8 years ago
unlikely
christian god?
he doesnt exist....now move on and enjoy your lives
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 8 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
I think this may be a difficult one for PRO.
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
Just find out about Gods bet with the devil and I'm off!
Posted by Cerebral_Narcissist 8 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist
So altercator is arguing that the Christian God is gracious and just, I-am-a-panda is arguing that he isn't?

It's a good topic! Though I would say that pro should have said more in the first round really!
Posted by I-am-a-panda 8 years ago
I-am-a-panda
I'll have sn argument in a few hours, its 11 p.m. in Ireland!
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